darth tang
Active Member
Oh, and your site with lego's uses the New Jerusalem version of the bible which is translated from the King James version by someone. Leaving out your ability to translate or interpret things.....for yourself.
coral reefs take millions of years to grow
- Thread starter caomt
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hagfish
Active Member
Kablamo, you seem to have some sort of desire for religion. And you seem to have read at least some of the Bible to see what it's all about. I highly recommend you give the Bible another chance and stop reading all of these web sites that are taking the Bible out of context to further their own agenda. Just read the Bible, using your own intellect and be open minded about what you read rather than judgemental. And realize that God speaks to us in terms we can understand, which are often metaphors and parables. That is the majority of what is taken out of context, as if people don't understand how to read a book. The truth is in it and you will find it if you do that.
Also, I know you were arguing against intelligent design earlier in this thread. Let me ask you this. If chance happened to create a cat (just a random animal), then just what would make chance happen to create another cat that was of the same species and able to mate and continue the proliferation of the species? For chance to have created the first cat it would have to have taken much longer than the lifespan of a cat. So the first cat would be dead by the time the second one came around. So basically, chance would have to have it's already astronomical odds of creating an ongoing species doubled because it would have to create two of the same species within the first one's lifetime, and all by chance since there is no intelligent design in your theory. This is especially inconceivable with an organism as complex as a cat and not just a single celled animal.
Let's put it another way. Say you are a teacher and you have two students turn in 5 page research papers that are practically word for word identical. Would you consider that chance? Absolutely not! That, is intelligent design in a more obvious form (to some). But somehow the evolutionist (this is a metaphor mind you) would say that there have been billions of research papers written over the years so it was bound to happen sometime. How about you try that with a biology teacher and tell them that evolution is the reason why you two have the same paper?
Also, I know you were arguing against intelligent design earlier in this thread. Let me ask you this. If chance happened to create a cat (just a random animal), then just what would make chance happen to create another cat that was of the same species and able to mate and continue the proliferation of the species? For chance to have created the first cat it would have to have taken much longer than the lifespan of a cat. So the first cat would be dead by the time the second one came around. So basically, chance would have to have it's already astronomical odds of creating an ongoing species doubled because it would have to create two of the same species within the first one's lifetime, and all by chance since there is no intelligent design in your theory. This is especially inconceivable with an organism as complex as a cat and not just a single celled animal.
Let's put it another way. Say you are a teacher and you have two students turn in 5 page research papers that are practically word for word identical. Would you consider that chance? Absolutely not! That, is intelligent design in a more obvious form (to some). But somehow the evolutionist (this is a metaphor mind you) would say that there have been billions of research papers written over the years so it was bound to happen sometime. How about you try that with a biology teacher and tell them that evolution is the reason why you two have the same paper?
socal57che
Active Member
HI KIDS
I read the beginning few posts a long time ago and didn't realize how this discussion had evolved. Anyway, here's something to chew. Anybody have a KJV and the NIV. (In this order) Read Revelation 22:19 in the KJV. Now read Matthew 6:9 through 6:13. Now read Matt 6:9 to ?? The Lords Prayer according to the NIV. This is the single reason I don't own the NIV. I discovered this within 2 minutes of opening the NIV and decided to play it safe....I use the KJV reference w/concordance.
I read the beginning few posts a long time ago and didn't realize how this discussion had evolved. Anyway, here's something to chew. Anybody have a KJV and the NIV. (In this order) Read Revelation 22:19 in the KJV. Now read Matthew 6:9 through 6:13. Now read Matt 6:9 to ?? The Lords Prayer according to the NIV. This is the single reason I don't own the NIV. I discovered this within 2 minutes of opening the NIV and decided to play it safe....I use the KJV reference w/concordance.
hagfish
Active Member
Hank Hannegraff is asked questions like this frequently on his "Bible Answer Man" show. I don't remember if this specific issue was ever brought up, but it seems like he tends to think the NIV is probably a better reference because it is based on more recently discovered manuscript evidence. Whereas the KJV was written long ago, but I think after some of the oldest manuscripts had been lost.
Actually, I'm looking at the two right now and I don't see a major difference. Can you explain what you mean?
KJV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...06;&version=9;
NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6;&version=31;
Actually, I'm looking at the two right now and I don't see a major difference. Can you explain what you mean?
KJV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...06;&version=9;
NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6;&version=31;
socal57che
Active Member
When quoting Christ I simply feel it's important not to leave things out like " For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
This is just my personal opinion though.
This is just my personal opinion though.
hagfish
Active Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
When quoting Christ I simply feel it's important not to leave things out like " For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
This is just my personal opinion though.
Yes, I that was the most obvious one to me. The question I would ask is who is more likely to have misquoted him? People from hundreds of years ago with many fewer manuscripts found and hand written mistakes having to be accounted for? Or people now who have found many more lost manuscripts to compare to one another to figure out what was really said.
The way Hank says it is one person can copy the Bible and they are bound to have some human mistakes in there. But when another person copies it, they will also have mistakes but it is highly unlikely they will be the same mistakes. So you can take the two and derive what the original said. So the more copies we find, the better the translation of the original in all likehood.
When quoting Christ I simply feel it's important not to leave things out like " For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
This is just my personal opinion though.
Yes, I that was the most obvious one to me. The question I would ask is who is more likely to have misquoted him? People from hundreds of years ago with many fewer manuscripts found and hand written mistakes having to be accounted for? Or people now who have found many more lost manuscripts to compare to one another to figure out what was really said.
The way Hank says it is one person can copy the Bible and they are bound to have some human mistakes in there. But when another person copies it, they will also have mistakes but it is highly unlikely they will be the same mistakes. So you can take the two and derive what the original said. So the more copies we find, the better the translation of the original in all likehood.
socal57che
Active Member
That seems logical
socal57che
Active Member
I would just hate to be on the committee that decided to leave that part out
kablamo
Member
Ok, i keep hearing people saying "when is KB going to rebut my points?"
Well, I appear to be the only one here who is on my side and actively argueing. I check this board and I have 15 replies by the time i come back, it's a little like trying to chase a car on foot if you know what I mean.
Some night when i have a few hours to spare I will address them all.
I have heard a few people say that when I have kids I will get it, or something equally asinine. The fact is, I DO have kids, and I treat them much better than the Jehovah treated his "children".
One point I want you guys to stop talking about right now is my misunderstanding of christianity and how I should give it a try. Well, I may be misunderstanding christianity because I haven't been to your church, but I spent 22 years at Crossroads Cathedral Assembly of God in Oklahoma City, and I was a christian for about 15 of those years. My unbelief didn't come from the burden of staying sinless and clean, nor did it come from rationalisation of my hedonism, nor did it come about from watching the evil acts of supposed "christians." I have read the bible through, many many times, and I do believe I get the jist of what they are trying to say.
My disbelief in the bible came because of an experience I had one night while laying in bed.
I opened my eyes and I was half awake and half dreaming still. I could see my dreams on the ceiling if you know what I mean. I had had a tooth pulled and had not done any drugs, because I know i will be accused after I tell you this., and I looked around and was thinking how incredibly transparent everything here was, and I had an overwhelming sense of unity with everything around me, and as I kept thinking about it, I became the bed, I became the room, I became all of what was around me and I was filled with incredible warmth and there was light! light of all shades slowly turning from a blinding white to yellow to orange to red to purple to blue to black and then a sound came, almost too high to hear, and it went down in tone slowly and was roaring like a jet and then figures began to appear all around me and they were danceing and shining with billions of colors and light and sounds. As I lay there transfixed on these things, i noticed that each figure had numerous figures within it, though I thought the original figures were the main figures, they were not so at all, but just a part of a bigger pictures, and things slowly settled down and i realized that everything I had seen was my surroundings, the clock on my desk, the fan on the ceiling, the bed I was laying on, only because the constant chatter in my brain had quieted, I had not given any of the objects names, and they were reality. I may be getting a little deep by now, this experience was almost impossible to describe.
The funny thing is, the moment I realized what these objects surrounding me were, the experience vanished and I was just in my room.
Well, I appear to be the only one here who is on my side and actively argueing. I check this board and I have 15 replies by the time i come back, it's a little like trying to chase a car on foot if you know what I mean.
Some night when i have a few hours to spare I will address them all.
I have heard a few people say that when I have kids I will get it, or something equally asinine. The fact is, I DO have kids, and I treat them much better than the Jehovah treated his "children".
One point I want you guys to stop talking about right now is my misunderstanding of christianity and how I should give it a try. Well, I may be misunderstanding christianity because I haven't been to your church, but I spent 22 years at Crossroads Cathedral Assembly of God in Oklahoma City, and I was a christian for about 15 of those years. My unbelief didn't come from the burden of staying sinless and clean, nor did it come from rationalisation of my hedonism, nor did it come about from watching the evil acts of supposed "christians." I have read the bible through, many many times, and I do believe I get the jist of what they are trying to say.
My disbelief in the bible came because of an experience I had one night while laying in bed.
I opened my eyes and I was half awake and half dreaming still. I could see my dreams on the ceiling if you know what I mean. I had had a tooth pulled and had not done any drugs, because I know i will be accused after I tell you this., and I looked around and was thinking how incredibly transparent everything here was, and I had an overwhelming sense of unity with everything around me, and as I kept thinking about it, I became the bed, I became the room, I became all of what was around me and I was filled with incredible warmth and there was light! light of all shades slowly turning from a blinding white to yellow to orange to red to purple to blue to black and then a sound came, almost too high to hear, and it went down in tone slowly and was roaring like a jet and then figures began to appear all around me and they were danceing and shining with billions of colors and light and sounds. As I lay there transfixed on these things, i noticed that each figure had numerous figures within it, though I thought the original figures were the main figures, they were not so at all, but just a part of a bigger pictures, and things slowly settled down and i realized that everything I had seen was my surroundings, the clock on my desk, the fan on the ceiling, the bed I was laying on, only because the constant chatter in my brain had quieted, I had not given any of the objects names, and they were reality. I may be getting a little deep by now, this experience was almost impossible to describe.
The funny thing is, the moment I realized what these objects surrounding me were, the experience vanished and I was just in my room.
kablamo
Member
I did some research and found out a little bit more about the experience I had had, and my best guess is that it was "cosmic concioussness", because for that moment, I was the whole of the cosmos, and I finally realized the truth. Which is why I found my way to monism, or rather, it found it's way into me.
Some people might think i'm here defending evolution, I said nothing of the kind, I do believe that evolution happens, that it is natural and necessary for our continued survival. I don't disagree with the theory of intelligent design, but I do believe that science is here to disprove, not to prove. The only thing that science can really do is disprove that which was once believed. You test a thing over and over and over, and if it is not disproved, it becomes a law, BUT, the capability is always there to disprove laws.
Creationism tends to try to prove that things happened based on the evidence that they find, and they oftentimes try to prove that things found in the bible are factual, eg, the flood, the firmament, the sun stopping for a day in the old testament.
I personally disagree with athiesm as well, for reasons I won't go into at the moment.
I also have problems with many creationist scientists, for example, Dr. Kent Hovind, one of the most rediculous men I have ever heard of.
He goes back and forth across the country speaking to churches about evolution and creationism, and debates all sorts of people about this and that with the specific goal in mind to debunk evolution.
He argues about geology, animal biology, chemestry, and all of these types of things, he claims to be "Dr. Dino" and tries to prove that dinosaurs were in the bible.
The problem is, his doctorite is in education, not geology, chemestry, anthropology, or paleantology (sp).
He has also smears falicious crap all over the science world with his "offer" of 250,000 dollars to anyone that can prove* that evolution is the truth.
The fine print here is that if you can prove to a council chosen by Dr. Hovind himself that evolution is the soul reason for speciation, and that it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with God, you get the money.
Now granted, he is one of the worst examples of creationists, and the creationism community generally frowns upon him, but I see this kind of nonsense in lesser or greater degrees from creationists in general.
People using long discredited arguements, such as the one about the moon dust, or the suns shrinkage.
Also,
My absolute worst qualm with christianity is that EVERY christian I have ever met devotes their life to breaking the first commandment.
"thou shalt not make unto thyselves any graven images."
Images of wood and stone and gold are one thing, no one in his senses these days would confuse a wooden carving with god, but it is quite another thing to take a set of ideas and make them your idol.
Think of God, picture god in your mind. .....................
Ok, now stop being an idolitor. Stop calling God a "He". Stop calling god a "She". Those are idols.
Stop calling God "God". The image associated with that word is an Idol.
Stop calling him "Father." That's another Idol.
Stop imagining his white beard, and stop imagining a throne that he sits upon.
All Idols.
If you stop doing these things you will get closer to understanding the truth about God.
Now stop thinking god has these ultra definite opinions and rules about what should or should not be done, these are ALL idols!
When you have thrown away all of your conseptions of God and are left with nothing to say about God, you will begin to understand, as either aristotle or plato said, I can't remember which, the foundation of wisdom is to admit that you know nothing.
I'd like to know your thoughts on this matter.
Some people might think i'm here defending evolution, I said nothing of the kind, I do believe that evolution happens, that it is natural and necessary for our continued survival. I don't disagree with the theory of intelligent design, but I do believe that science is here to disprove, not to prove. The only thing that science can really do is disprove that which was once believed. You test a thing over and over and over, and if it is not disproved, it becomes a law, BUT, the capability is always there to disprove laws.
Creationism tends to try to prove that things happened based on the evidence that they find, and they oftentimes try to prove that things found in the bible are factual, eg, the flood, the firmament, the sun stopping for a day in the old testament.
I personally disagree with athiesm as well, for reasons I won't go into at the moment.
I also have problems with many creationist scientists, for example, Dr. Kent Hovind, one of the most rediculous men I have ever heard of.
He goes back and forth across the country speaking to churches about evolution and creationism, and debates all sorts of people about this and that with the specific goal in mind to debunk evolution.
He argues about geology, animal biology, chemestry, and all of these types of things, he claims to be "Dr. Dino" and tries to prove that dinosaurs were in the bible.
The problem is, his doctorite is in education, not geology, chemestry, anthropology, or paleantology (sp).
He has also smears falicious crap all over the science world with his "offer" of 250,000 dollars to anyone that can prove* that evolution is the truth.
The fine print here is that if you can prove to a council chosen by Dr. Hovind himself that evolution is the soul reason for speciation, and that it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with God, you get the money.
Now granted, he is one of the worst examples of creationists, and the creationism community generally frowns upon him, but I see this kind of nonsense in lesser or greater degrees from creationists in general.
People using long discredited arguements, such as the one about the moon dust, or the suns shrinkage.
Also,
My absolute worst qualm with christianity is that EVERY christian I have ever met devotes their life to breaking the first commandment.
"thou shalt not make unto thyselves any graven images."
Images of wood and stone and gold are one thing, no one in his senses these days would confuse a wooden carving with god, but it is quite another thing to take a set of ideas and make them your idol.
Think of God, picture god in your mind. .....................
Ok, now stop being an idolitor. Stop calling God a "He". Stop calling god a "She". Those are idols.
Stop calling God "God". The image associated with that word is an Idol.
Stop calling him "Father." That's another Idol.
Stop imagining his white beard, and stop imagining a throne that he sits upon.
All Idols.
If you stop doing these things you will get closer to understanding the truth about God.
Now stop thinking god has these ultra definite opinions and rules about what should or should not be done, these are ALL idols!
When you have thrown away all of your conseptions of God and are left with nothing to say about God, you will begin to understand, as either aristotle or plato said, I can't remember which, the foundation of wisdom is to admit that you know nothing.
I'd like to know your thoughts on this matter.
socal57che
Active Member
What about Billy Idol.
I don't really think about him, but with all this talk of idols it just popped into my head.
I'm pretty stupid, but I think you're referring to false idols and leaving out the "before God" part.
I don't really think about him, but with all this talk of idols it just popped into my head.
I'm pretty stupid, but I think you're referring to false idols and leaving out the "before God" part.
socal57che
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
I'm dying to hear what kind of a person I am, am I the kind of person that doesn't read the entire post and misses the point entirely?
I personally didn't read the entire thread and just feel you're a little confused.
I was once confused, but now I think much more clearly.
I'm dying to hear what kind of a person I am, am I the kind of person that doesn't read the entire post and misses the point entirely?
I personally didn't read the entire thread and just feel you're a little confused.
I was once confused, but now I think much more clearly.
socal57che
Active Member
I certainly feel that you are entitled to your opinion and am glad to see the debate go on like it does. I think it's a test of faith for devout Christians to debate the issue without pushing people farther from God, and for that I thank you. I read from by Bible today for the first time in several weeks.
Thanks
Thanks
kablamo
Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
False... the OT was compiled long before 300AD.
I never said a word about the OT, the cannon of the OT was closed in 100 AD at the senate of Jamnia.
On the contrary, it's nice to see you stating your own opinions instead of quoting arguments that misquote scripture. I'm all for you stating your own opinions.
That was a little derogitory don't you think?
That's how authority works... a "Red" light doesn't have any authority over me unless I choose to stop for it.
True... often by people who try to argue against His teachings, but also by the ignorant or the greedy, etc... MANY are guilty of this.
When I said misquote Jesus, I meant the apostles who wrote these books some 20 or 30 years after his death
The problem with that paragraph and your opinion on what Jesus believes is that it is based on Jesus not being the "perfect" Jew. I've already addressed this... Jesus fulfilled the OT law. He didn't rebel against it.
Again, it is you that needs to read your Bible. The description of God as merciful is found in the OT, and the description of God as "All Mighty" is clear in the NT. Just because the OT and NT focus on different things don't try to make them out to describing a different "God".
Never said he wasn't merciful in the OT, never said he wasn't almighty in the NT. I'm just saying he is a totaly different cat now than he was in the OT.
In the OT, he was a constant force on the earth, talked DIRECTLY to MANY MANY different people, stood in all of the hebrews battles, unless of course they screwed god over, then god took his protection away and they got crushed. Nowadays if someone says he talked to god, he gets locked up.
False... the OT was compiled long before 300AD.
I never said a word about the OT, the cannon of the OT was closed in 100 AD at the senate of Jamnia.
On the contrary, it's nice to see you stating your own opinions instead of quoting arguments that misquote scripture. I'm all for you stating your own opinions.
That was a little derogitory don't you think?
That's how authority works... a "Red" light doesn't have any authority over me unless I choose to stop for it.
True... often by people who try to argue against His teachings, but also by the ignorant or the greedy, etc... MANY are guilty of this.
When I said misquote Jesus, I meant the apostles who wrote these books some 20 or 30 years after his death
The problem with that paragraph and your opinion on what Jesus believes is that it is based on Jesus not being the "perfect" Jew. I've already addressed this... Jesus fulfilled the OT law. He didn't rebel against it.
Again, it is you that needs to read your Bible. The description of God as merciful is found in the OT, and the description of God as "All Mighty" is clear in the NT. Just because the OT and NT focus on different things don't try to make them out to describing a different "God".
Never said he wasn't merciful in the OT, never said he wasn't almighty in the NT. I'm just saying he is a totaly different cat now than he was in the OT.
In the OT, he was a constant force on the earth, talked DIRECTLY to MANY MANY different people, stood in all of the hebrews battles, unless of course they screwed god over, then god took his protection away and they got crushed. Nowadays if someone says he talked to god, he gets locked up.
socal57che
Active Member
Kablamo
Is Billy Squire your avatar??
Is Billy Squire your avatar??
socal57che
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Nowadays if someone says he talked to god, he gets locked up.
Blessed is he that is persecuted in the name of the Lord
Nowadays if someone says he talked to god, he gets locked up.
Blessed is he that is persecuted in the name of the Lord
1journeyman
Active Member
?
1journeyman
Active Member
[/QUOTE=Kablamo] I never said a word about the OT, the cannon of the OT was closed in 100 AD at the senate of Jamnia.
Actually you did.. here's your quote:
[/QUOTE=Kablamo] By the 300's the catholic church was already somewhat corrupt and had begun persecuting non christians in rome and the pagan countryside around it, and it was these same people who compiled the books of the old testament. [/QUOTE]
Actually you did.. here's your quote:
[/QUOTE=Kablamo] By the 300's the catholic church was already somewhat corrupt and had begun persecuting non christians in rome and the pagan countryside around it, and it was these same people who compiled the books of the old testament. [/QUOTE]