Deep Sand Bed in refugium

[fcatch76]

So, the more I read the more I wonder if it was a good idea for the DSB in my CPR fuge. The dsb is 4.5", I have cheato, 2 shaving brushes, 2 clove polyps and lots of copepods. These sit under a 24w 10K bulb for 8 hrs a night.
My concern is, thread after thread, I keep reading how hard it is to keep a dsb. Why??? Am I going to crash a month or two down the road with this.
My belief was dsb=beneficial for nitrate control. Right?
Should I throw some Nar. snails back there?
Can someone please shed some light on this topic for me?!
Thank You, FC

 

[1journeyman]

A deep sand bed is not at all difficult to keep, provided to set it up properly.
*Proper depth (you're good)
*Brisk circulation across the bed
*seeded with true "live" sand to get the beneficial micro-critters you need to keep sand bed healthy
*No predataion on micro critters.

 

[fcatch76]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2759431
*Proper depth (you're good)
*Brisk circulation across the bed
*seeded with true "live" sand to get the beneficial micro-critters you need to keep sand bed healthy
*No predataion on micro critters.
Depth=ok
live sand =ok
no predators=ok
Circulation- not sure there because its a fuge, I thought the fuge was designed to have the DSB so circulation shouldn't be a worry for me? Right??

 

[fcatch76]

after some research, snails, stars etc etc are needed to sift through the sand in order to get the sand circulated @ a deeper level. So some Nars' are on the way. Most likely get 4 small ones since it holds 4.5 gallons and I thought it was 1 snail for every gallon?!?!

 

[1journeyman]

Nass. snails are detritus feeders so their number is dependent on food. Other snails that feed primarily on algae are more restricted to the number in the tank.
a DSB needs good circulation across it to prevent detritus from building up on top of it.
Snails, micro stars, etc. are good sand stirrers, but don't overlook pods, micro stars, worms, etc. that should be in quality live sand.

 

[privatejoker]

Go with what works for you. I just start a new fuge and put an inch or two of fiji pink in the bottom. It will become live in time and the macros are more important than a deep sand bed. I was thinking of not putting any sand bed but then where would the critters live. If you dig up a deep sand bed you'll see most of the critters live in top 1/2" so the rest is just for show in a tank.

 

[prime311]

I prefer a remote DSB that can be easily removed from your system. If you incorporate it with your fuge its just a big hassle if it ends up needing maintenance.

 

[mr_x]

i'm not DSB savvy, because all i know about them is hearsay. i've heard they are great, and i've also heard they cannot be kept long term.
i've heard they are to be atleast 4" and i've heard about different size sand at different depths.
i've also heard they are not to be disturbed so that the zones with an absence of oxygen stay that way, and then i've heard that you need critters to stir the sand up.
i just chose not to use one. it seems to be working well. i also have about 1" of sand in my refugium for the critters.

 

[fcatch76]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2759643
i've heard they are to be atleast 4" and i've heard about different size sand at different depths.
i've also heard they are not to be disturbed so that the zones with an absence of oxygen stay that way
thats exactly what I read, now that the pods are setup in there I am afraid to pull sand out.
Totally agree with the "what works for you", but after reading that people are/have crashed with a dsb....

.
thx for the input so far to everyone..plz keep them coming!!

 

[1journeyman]

It does need to be 4 inches deep. You've got that covered, however.
Less than 4 inches and you get too close to the intermediate depth where nothing good occurs.
I disagree with macros being better. A dsb houses all sorts of micro critters that are a great cuc. They also end up in the tank and add to your food supply.
I had a dsb in my 210 a my office. Moved it and the sand was fine, all the way through. Similarly, when I moved my 180 to my uncle when I took my overseas job the sand bed was healthy.
Follow the rules and it works great. You'll also not find a better pH buffer than a fine aragonite sand bed.

 

[mr_x]

but what rules? i'd like to do an experiment at the gym where i have taken on the task of an "easy to maintain reeftank". i have built a fairly deep sump with refugium, capable of a 5 or 6 inch sand bed. what rules? sand stirrers, or not? different size granules or not?

 

[dennis210]

fcatch76 I see 1journeyman has given you very sound advice. IMO follow it!
I keep DSB in my diplays, frag tank, and sumps. Small creatures as mentioned do most of the work in stirring the sand. Pods, microstars, etc. I do not keep any in sump as nassarius can climb cglass wall/dividers and end up plugging a return pump. I have seen it happen! So think about the microcommunty 1Journeyman spoke of. If you feel there isn't enough flow across the sand in refugium area - INCREASE it! Pull water from other area via small powerhead and use tubing to direct it over sand. Anyway all the hyp about Deep sand beds being bad is like any political debate - there is always good and bad. Just look at who is talking and look at their actual experience and record. I use DSB, I intall them in every reef system I help set up, I believe in them, and have 4 years experience with them. The man who got me into salt had had a DSB set up and running for 7 years. think flow flow flow, and not too many sand sifting critters to eat what you are promoting! BAlance grasshopper!

 

[aztec reef]

The reason why folks are not succesful with dsb's , its because they tend to want to maintain a dsb. When in reality a dsb its a natural self suficient biological filter.
A sandbed should be 4", and the reason is simple, 2" for Nitrification processses + 2" for Denitrification. (1mm-2mm grain size). Thus it will not overly compact and it will allowe proper oxygen/redox gradients. Also this grain size limits the amount of copious detrius to penetrate its depths..leaving it to the critters.
The finer the grain size the shallower u can go. However if dsb its setup with a finer grain size, you'll need a higher amount of micro-fauna(worms,crutaceans)and surface grazers in order to maintain a proper oxygen gradients and associated microbial processes.
Heres a few reason why DSB's crash!!!
#1 improper balance of nutrient storage.( too many anaerobic algea colonies)
#2. too much sand disturbance by hobbiests.
#3 Not enough or too many sand sifters.

 

[squirt0511]

what about the use of miracle mud instead? is that a good idea, bad idea or what? I mean, i am sure everyone has there way, but i was just curious as to what is the more popular way or the better way. I currently have a fuge with like 20lbs of miracle mud and that crap was supposed to be hella expensive...I got it really cheap!!!!!

 

[fcatch76]

I was going to do the mud but then i saw you have to always add more to replenish

 

[squirt0511]

You do? i wasnt aware of that. I thought the purpose of the mud is for the water to filter through it and keep everything at the right level. Why would you need to replenish it? are tiny little mud particles going always going into your actual tank? if so thats kind of a bummer.

 

[fcatch76]

Originally Posted by squirt0511
http:///forum/post/2760913
You do? i wasnt aware of that. I thought the purpose of the mud is for the water to filter through it and keep everything at the right level. Why would you need to replenish it? are tiny little mud particles going always going into your actual tank? if so thats kind of a bummer.
Read the label if you still have it. It claims over time it will break down and over time it will lose its nutrient level and will need to be recharged. Thtas why thye sell the bucket and then the smaller ??oz. container.
HTH

 

[mr_x]

i have seen an article where they examined miracle mud and found nothing in it to suggest that it came from the ocean. i had a couple pounds of it, and i found pieces of red brick in it, and some plastic/glass shiny things. it's from someone's backyard. the reason they tell you to replenish it is simply to sell more.
back to the topic-
"#3 Not enough or too many sand sifters."
what is the exact correct amount then?

 

[geoj]

Knowledge is key without it both deep and shallow sand beds fail.
I would like to hear how long some of you have kept DSB.
The reason I ask is in Coral Mag Oct/Nov 2007 Shimek and Calfo Try to avoid saying that DSB do not buildup waste then crash but in the end Calfo said that an independent DSB is best because you can disconnect it if it goes south. A shallow reef sand bed takes about three years to crash if you don’t stir it, sooner if hydrogen sulfide gas enters the water in large amounts. They had attributed this to one of the causes of old tank syndrome. So how many people have kept DSB over three years and if you have how did you set it up.
Thanks
GeoJ

 

[tdog7879]

Hope i don't have to many beacause at when the lights go out the top of my DSB has millions of little critters (tiny snails worms copods etc). Do you think thats a problem?