Dinosaurs and the Bible

1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2512265
The universe is a closed system, but that doesn't rule out local discontinuities. Doesn't' a mature tomato have more energy and organization than the seed it grew from? Indeed, life is little more, thermodynamically, than the expenditure of energy to maintain a system in an organized state. When that life ceases, energy is no longer transferred from sources (food), and death occurs. That's why a cadaver becomes cold - energy is no longer being transferred, and the energy (heat) is dissipated. There is nothing in second law that makes life unlikely, only that when outside energy is no longer available, life ceases.
If we accept that the Universe is a giant closed system then the very idea of it's creation violates the 2nd Law. Unless, of course, our universe was much more complex before it came into being.
The tomato example simply doesn't answer the long term issue. How did a universe spring to existence in a closed system? What "outside force" acted upon it? The tomato seed example is often referred too, but it fails to cover the real issue.
 
mfp1016

mfp1016

Member
Entropy, at best, is an accounting mechanism for balancing energy. Application to the Universe is a serious extrapolation of its definition and usefulness.
-A. Scientist
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2512117
Lucifer was one of the three highest ranking angels in heaven. Michael and Gabriel were, as far as I can tell, equals with Lucifer. Lucifer was beautiful, BTW. Yes, God created Lucifer.
All angels are not equal. Different orders of angels have different jobs.
This is the whole reason for mankind. God wanted to be loved and worshipped by a willing participant who had the choice not to. Therefore, God creates man. The angels were simply made for a different purpose. Lucifer was cast down from heaven for rebelling against God. He took one third of the angels in heaven with him. Lucifer's pride led to his downfall, so pride was actually the first (or original) sin.
Many are unable to resist Satan (Lucifer). Alcohol, drugs, pornography, hate, war, the list goes on and on. These are Satans tools of destruction for the human soul. Satan hates God. God loves man, therefore Satan hates man.

Have you ever read the Book of Enoch? I believe his hate for man is because of God's love for man... God gave humans things that Angels couldn't experience and this is part is the reason why those that followed Lucifer were casted down...they were envious of humans and sought to corrupt them.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2512552
If we accept that the Universe is a giant closed system then the very idea of it's creation violates the 2nd Law. Unless, of course, our universe was much more complex before it came into being.
The tomato example simply doesn't answer the long term issue. How did a universe spring to existence in a closed system? What "outside force" acted upon it? The tomato seed example is often referred too, but it fails to cover the real issue.
Now we're outside of anything my brain can handle. Cosmology and the creation of the universe are above my pay grade
Life, like politics, is a local phenomenon, so the local thermodynamic discontinuities are relevant when discussing life's origins and the possibility of its evolution.
 
mfp1016

mfp1016

Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2512633
Now we're outside of anything my brain can handle. Cosmology and the creation of the universe are above my pay grade
Life, like politics, is a local phenomenon, so the local thermodynamic discontinuities are relevant when discussing life's origins and the possibility of its evolution.
Yes but in extreme localities, i.e. nucleus of an atom, these discontinuities are exacerbated and no longer relevant.
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
To the OP. You are probably like Myself. You want to believe , but refuse to do so blindly. There are many counts in the bible that do deserve great merit. And many as well that do arouse suspicion at least. With all the evidence we have today of so many contradicting things. It's hard for an intelligent person to follow blindly. When growing up, I attended Assemblies Of God churches. Was a Royal Ranger, the whole 9. Time after time, I heard that baptists were going to Hell, catholics too. I thought, WOW they don't believe in Jesus. (the other denominations). I found out shortly after they did believe, just not like "WE" believe. Later in life, I became a member of a local Baptist church. Refusing to ever go to another pentecostal church as it was obvious to me as a child they HAD to be wrong, they condemned other christians. Well it wasn't long at all, before the condemning came from the Baptist side. I stayed with the church for a few years though. I thought I could make a difference. No dice there. My point is, I BELIEVE, I just don't believe in Christianity per Se. I don't believe MONk will be cast into hell for being Buddhist. (Actually, to me Buhdism is a very apealing religion) I don't believe Jews will be either. I take the Bible as a good book, and just that. I do not read it anymore, nor do I want to. There are too many reasons to discount it as a reliable "word of God" IMO. I believe there is a greater power than me out there, and some day I'll discover it. I try to do as MOST RELIGIONS teach, and do good works. I believe that's the key to discovering whatever awaits. I do not push my belief, nor do I like to be pushed. I believe science is relatively accurate, dinosaurs are all around us, just smaller. The truth is, I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU WOULD CALL ME! Probably closer to a Deist, but still don't want to be labeled that. Nor a Christian scientist, that's too far out there. I don't believe that God is anything like Christan's believe. Nor do I believe any more than 144,000 will see god when it's done.
Every single person who has posted here has a belief in something. That is something that is a human need. Which is why we have religions of any sort today. You will find what it is you believe. Keep searching, then when you find it, you'll have peace. DONT LET SOMEONE SCARE YOU INTO BELIEVING ANYTHING! That whole crap of what if I'm right and your wrong, is a load of bull. Anyone who preaches that is desperate to sway you, and is wrong for doing so.
 
zman1

zman1

Active Member
Wow, there are more of us than I thought. If you believe that there is a supreme being albeit a entity, creator or god. We'll call it god. My god would probably be a her, if you're going to associate a gender with it. A mothers love is unconditional. That would be for all her children in the WORLD and life on other planets if we find it exist. An inclusive god. If she does judge, it would be on ones merits and deeds. Hopefully, the good out weighs the bad in the end. The mutually exclusive fundamentalist be it Christian or Islamic or etc.. scare me. Yes, I believe that dinosaurs existed and things evolve.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2512624

Have you ever read the Book of Enoch? I believe his hate for man is because of God's love for man... God gave humans things that Angels couldn't experience and this is part is the reason why those that followed Lucifer were casted down...they were envious of humans and sought to corrupt them.
Do you believe Satan fell after man was created?
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2512633
Now we're outside of anything my brain can handle. Cosmology and the creation of the universe are above my pay grade
Life, like politics, is a local phenomenon, so the local thermodynamic discontinuities are relevant when discussing life's origins and the possibility of its evolution.
LOL, glad to hear it. We were rapidly approaching the outer limits of my mental capacity as well.

Anyway, it was fun.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by mfp1016
http:///forum/post/2512642
Yes but in extreme localities, i.e. nucleus of an atom, these discontinuities are exacerbated and no longer relevant.
According to a physics researcher friend of mine, in the nucleus of an atom the laws of thermodynamics may not even apply - energy can go both ways. It's beyond me
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2514000
Wow, there are more of us than I thought. If you believe that there is a supreme being albeit a entity, creator or god. We'll call it god. My god would probably be a her, if you're going to associate a gender with it. A mothers love is unconditional. That would be for all her children in the WORLD and life on other planets if we find it exist. An inclusive god. If she does judge, it would be on ones merits and deeds. Hopefully, the good out weighs the bad in the end. The mutually exclusive fundamentalist be it Christian or Islamic or etc.. scare me. Yes, I believe that dinosaurs existed and things evolve.
I believe that God has 3 sides or aspects ... they are called Yahweh, Adonai, and El Shaddai.. El Shaddai is the feminine nuturing side of God. I don't believe that God is either male or female, but has the natural characteristics of both as being both protector and nurturer
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2514039
Do you believe Satan fell after man was created?
Yes, along with the along with the other 1/3 of angels. The book of Enoch tells you specifically why they fell. I'm not sure in what reverence you hold the book since it is not cannonized, but it does give some insight to questions that I've had.
 
lexluethar

lexluethar

Active Member
The original text of the bible used Yahweh to define God, which has no sexual orientation, but English has no such translation.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2514352
I believe that God has 3 sides or aspects ... they are called Yahweh, Adonai, and El Shaddai.. El Shaddai is the feminine nuturing side of God. I don't believe that God is either male or female, but has the natural characteristics of both as being both protector and nurturer
Yahweh is the holiest of names for God in the Jewish language. It's typically translated "Jehovah" in early English texts.
The OT is full of different names for Yahweh. The Jewish people used different titles for God depending on which of His characteristics they were referring too. Adonai means "Lord", El Shaddai means "God, all sufficient", "provider", etc. There are dozens of different names of God in the OT, so we have to look further than these names describing the Trinity.
Neither name, from the Hebrew, implies the masculine or feminine side of God.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2514366
Yes, along with the along with the other 1/3 of angels. The book of Enoch tells you specifically why they fell. I'm not sure in what reverence you hold the book since it is not cannonized, but it does give some insight to questions that I've had.
Ya, I don't give it much credit personally, but that's just me. Your results can vary.
My difficulty with Satan falling after man was created is that it means Satan tempted Adam and Eve to fall while still being the "Angel of Light".
The 1/3 angels can be found in Revelation, when the Dragon is referenced sweeping a 1/3 of the stars from the sky. Probably figurative, but it is found elsewhere.
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2514429
Yahweh is the holiest of names for God in the Jewish language. It's typically translated "Jehovah" in early English texts.
The OT is full of different names for Yahweh. The Jewish people used different titles for God depending on which of His characteristics they were referring too. Adonai means "Lord", El Shaddai means "God, all sufficient", "provider", etc. There are dozens of different names of God in the OT, so we have to look further than these names describing the Trinity.
Neither name, from the Hebrew, implies the masculine or feminine side of God.
And in some instances the word Elohim is used which is a word that can mean more than one, suggesting the Trinity of God was realized early in man's history. Also God said let us make man in our own image again supporting the Trinity.
Sorry if I'm getting a little off base.
 
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