Dinosaurs and the Bible

[lexluethar]

And journey what i was saying was that does it say in the bible that god looks like man? Because god did create man in his image - but what was that image? Could that image have been something different then what we see today and that we evolved into what we are today? So we were created in his image (don't know what it looks like) but have evolved into what we are today. Thats where i was going with that original post.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2510774
OKay back onto this topic. Something i've always had trouble wrapping my head around is the idea of an all knowing, all powerful, all controlling god. The reason for this is because of the war and death so prevelant in our world. I know its mans doing, i agree with this, but if god was able to control everything why would he allow young, innocent people to die? I've heard the explanation that well it was their time, or that is what god wanted - but i find that hard to swallow, i mean you are telling me that on 9/11 god intended for all of those people to die? Even the young children and devout christians? And what about WWII and the atom bombs? All of those children and innocent people he meant for them to die? That was in his plan? This is what i find hard to believe. I believe in God, and even an omnipotent (sp*) god and all knowing, but i don't know if he's all powerful, because for someone (terrorists, separatists, war, famine, disease, etc) that he loves to die for no reason and for him not to stop it is difficult to believe.
Most of this comes back to free will of man. As far as the disease and famine, etc., these things entered the world as a result of sin. They were not in God's original plan.

 

[lexluethar]

okay, but implying that he has a plan, and now man has deviated from that plan gives me more reason to believe he is not all powerful. because if we aren't following his plan then why would he not correct us or fix the problem. I understand that it has to do with free will and us being able to do what we want, but to deviate from the plan so much as to killing millions of jews, i would say that would be a time in which he should step in. I know its not my world, not my choice i'm just saying its instances like that in which it is hard for me to understand how he is all powerful.

 

[aquaknight]

Lex, that is the center of my problem and wasn't looking to get into it, but you mentioned it.

Say your wife/son/daughter/dog/cat/fish, gets really sick. You pray everyday for them to get better. The wife/son/daughter/dog/cat/fish, doesn't, gets worse and eventually passes away. After the death of wife/son/daughter/dog/cat/fish, you then pray that God had a 'higher plan' for them. My question is why pray at all? Pretty sure at your Church, because at mine, we all prayed after 9/11 to end terrorism. What happened? The Madrid and London bombings. It seems, and some comments have been this that there is already plans set out by God for each and every one of us. Esp. if this was a result of Adam/Eve, if there's nothing we can do to change things? Granted I fully appreicate making the world a better place and fully support that. Maybe better terms would be hope instead of prayer?

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2510734
God gave us free will so that we may love Him. Take away our choice to do the wrong thing and you lose that.

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2510737
Sorry, for some reason I am unable to edit posts from the terminal at work.
Ever heard "if you love something, set it free." God was the first one to do this.
True, but I would only set something free that I am 100% confident in. Obviously Adam was not 100% ready. It seemed like before they sinned and were pure, they still deeply loved God. Perhaps, not as much?

 

[sigmachris]

This thread has gotten away from dinosaurs and is there really a God. I have many issues to deal with and my beliefs if there is a God. I was living in SoCal when the following incident happened and it made me think why would a God do or allow this?
Below is a link to cnn.com about the article, but here is a recap.
27 people are gathered for a birthday party in the mountains above the Los Angeles basin. A mudslide hits the building where the birthday party is taking place and 13 people are killed mostly children. Why would a God allow this to happen??? To make me question God even more...the birthday party was for Jesus as this happened on Christmas morning...the building was a church retreat camp. So why would God kill 13 people who were celebrating the birth of his son and destroy a building built in his honor?
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/West/....ap/index.html

 

[clown boy]

Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2510331
Please don't misquote major scientists. I am one, and I will freely admit to you that evolution is a theory, but NOT a religion, since it is not based on belief systems, but on observable fact.
Such as?

 

[lexluethar]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
http:///forum/post/2510854
Such as?
Apples falling from trees.
You cannot create something out of nothing
Carbon dating showing the world is much older then some religions believe
I could go on...
I realize there is some misconceptions between theory and fact, but I believe the point of his post was that most science is based upon some concrete evidence. Although i do no dispute the fact that there was a man named Jesus 2000 years ago, what observable facts do you have that he walked on water, used two fish to feed thousands, or his father (god) created the world. I think he is saying religion is based off more of faith (which is obviously b/c that is the definition of religion) than fact.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2510691
Is there no chance that God used evolution as a tool to create man in his image? Is there no possibility that after evolving for millions of years the image was finished evolving and God gave the resulting human a soul?
To me? No.

I can't shrug off Genesis chpt 2:
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed..."
Now, please note I said "to me". I'm sure other's can see enough vagueness there to argue you can take that figuratively as well.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2510774
OKay back onto this topic. Something i've always had trouble wrapping my head around is the idea of an all knowing, all powerful, all controlling god. The reason for this is because of the war and death so prevelant in our world. I know its mans doing, i agree with this, but if god was able to control everything why would he allow young, innocent people to die? I've heard the explanation that well it was their time, or that is what god wanted - but i find that hard to swallow, i mean you are telling me that on 9/11 god intended for all of those people to die? Even the young children and devout christians? And what about WWII and the atom bombs? All of those children and innocent people he meant for them to die? That was in his plan? This is what i find hard to believe. I believe in God, and even an omnipotent (sp*) god and all knowing, but i don't know if he's all powerful, because for someone (terrorists, separatists, war, famine, disease, etc) that he loves to die for no reason and for him not to stop it is difficult to believe.
I would argue that God has chosen not to be "all controlling" and thus "bad things" happen. Further, remember that from the Biblical perspective life on earth is a "mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes".
His plan, again from a Biblical perspective, is that all may receive eternal life.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2510775
And journey what i was saying was that does it say in the bible that god looks like man? Because god did create man in his image - but what was that image? Could that image have been something different then what we see today and that we evolved into what we are today? So we were created in his image (don't know what it looks like) but have evolved into what we are today. Thats where i was going with that original post.
Hmm. Honestly never heard or thought about that. I guess I would say probably not, (Biblically speaking) as the Bible says God created Man and later Jesus became Man. So I wouldnt think there could be a change like what you are referring too. Further, the description in Genenis of God walking and talking with man seems to support that they were as we are today.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by SigmaChris
http:///forum/post/2510821
... So why would God kill 13 people who were celebrating the birth of his son and destroy a building built in his honor?
Why would God allow imperfect, sinful, lying, lowly creatures such as humans spend eternity in perfection with him when we die? (from a biblical perspective

This is a difficult topic to address without "proselytizing")

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
http:///forum/post/2510862
Apples falling from trees.
You cannot create something out of nothingCarbon dating showing the world is much older then some religions believe
I could go on...
I realize there is some misconceptions between theory and fact, but I believe the point of his post was that most science is based upon some concrete evidence. Although i do no dispute the fact that there was a man named Jesus 2000 years ago, what observable facts do you have that he walked on water, used two fish to feed thousands, or his father (god) created the world. I think he is saying religion is based off more of faith (which is obviously b/c that is the definition of religion) than fact.
The bold statement is the one that, for me, causes me to scratch my head the most regarding science. We know matter cannot be created or destroyed. We further know that all things tend towards disoprder unless acted upon by an outside force; Yet our scientific community is willing to accept everything occured from nothing and has lead to a more and more complicated system over time.
Removing my religious views, I still would have a difficult time with that; to me it seems like a rather large contradiction. A scientific "theory" is not supposed to contradict known scientific "laws".
We have no scientific evidence whatsoever that Jesus did what the Bible says He did. What we do have, however, is the historical evidence of a Church springing up, after His death, in the face of increasing persecution. What we do have is evidence of His followers spreading His teachings after He died.
Many people unwillingly die for a lie. Few people, however, are willing to give up everything and die knowing they are dying for a lie.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2510691
Is there no chance that God used evolution as a tool to create man in his image? Is there no possibility that after evolving for millions of years the image was finished evolving and God gave the resulting human a soul?
Bravo

Unfortunately, the doctrine of religions are mutually exclusive and based on principles of argumentum ad baculum or argumentum ad consequentiam. No wiggle room for other religions or beliefs, regardless of your chosen religion.

 

[sigmachris]

Next time you turn your car on you will be sinning...
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news...80/detail.html

 

[reefraff]

Maybe I am missing something here, Has there been evidence found that proves man evolved from apes or ape like creatures or whatever the latest claims are? Serious questions because I don't really follow the creation vs evolution argument all that close. For all I know someone named God flew here in a spaceship and unloaded a bunch of animals and two were named Adam and Eve. It's always just struck me as odd that humans evolved so much differently than other species.

 

[geridoc]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
http:///forum/post/2510854
Such as?
How about the radioactive decay of matter, or the lack of human fossils in strata in common with dinosaurs, or the movement of the tectonic plates, or the presence of intermediate forms of animals in the fossil record, or the clear pattern of inheritance of genetic mutation over billions of years, or the...the list goes on, and on, and on. To which many people respond "I don't know much about biology, but..."

 

[geridoc]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2510898
The bold statement is the one that, for me, causes me to scratch my head the most regarding science. We know matter cannot be created or destroyed. We further know that all things tend towards disoprder unless acted upon by an outside force; Yet our scientific community is willing to accept everything occured from nothing and has lead to a more and more complicated system over time.
This is a common misconception of the laws of thermodynamics, which do not say that things tend towards disorder. Thermodynamics states that, in a closed system, in the absence of energy input, energy tends to dissipate. However, we are not part of a closed system, and energy is constantly being put into the system (think sunlight, for example), so there is nothing in thermodynamics that makes the appearance and evolution of life either impossible or unlikely.

 

[lexluethar]

Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2511067
How about the radioactive decay of matter, or the lack of human fossils in strata in common with dinosaurs, or the movement of the tectonic plates, or the presence of intermediate forms of animals in the fossil record, or the clear pattern of inheritance of genetic mutation over billions of years, or the...the list goes on, and on, and on. To which many people respond "I don't know much about biology, but..."
but i do know that they have not found fossil evidence directly linking man to ape. I know they have found some ape bones that seemed to have evolved from apes, but nothing like a timeline effect of ape, walking on two legs, then man. I know they have some pieces but no the whole puzzle. If it was something that happen on a grand scale there would definately be more fossil evidence.
I know i'm going back and forth because i see evidence (or theorys) that i feel support / debunk both.

 

[dragonzim]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
http:///forum/post/2508101
All I'm doing is disputing the claim that there is nothing in the Bible that could be a dinosaur.
Look at Job for instance. In Chapter 40. Keep in mind that this is God talking here, not some wistful poet.
15 "Look at the behemoth, [a]
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!
17 His tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes,
or trap him and pierce his nose?
Now, what is this behemoth? Well, many people say that it's either a hippopotamus, or an elephant. Well... 17 His tail sways like a cedar; Have you ever seen the tail of a hippopotamus or an elephant? Sways like a twig is more like it...
Well, then many people will say it's a Crocodile. 16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly! Well, that doesn't exactly fit a Crocodile.
Well then, what is it? A Sauropod, of course. Read it over again with this in mind, and it makes perfect sense.
Sure sounds like a crocodile to me..