Distilled Water?

[scopus tang]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2516396
If you're in the water business then we can learn a lot from you for sure.
Perhaps, and perhaps not, I do know that I've learned an awful lot from you all since I've joined this site
Right or wrong, until proven otherwise these are my operating parameters. I do have an open mind and I do have a good ability to see pertinant facts when they are presented. So, please continue questioning this has great potential for learning.
Trust me when I say I'm not interested in proving anyone wrong or right, I'm simply trying to resolve what I know (or think I know) from reading and experience with what I'm reading on this site. I'm certainly no pro, nor do I consider myself an all-knowing expert, and like you, I try to have an open mind. I do try not to post or comment unless I feel that have the facts and the knowledge to do so, or unless I'm asking a question that hasn't already been asked. And I'm certainly not always right ~ in fact I've learned in my 17 years of educating that I'm often wrong about what I thought I knew. The reason I'm on this site is to learn, and if I can help a few others along the way great.
Perhaps the term "High Level" is relative. For a reef tank I would consider tank water with a level anywhere near 0.1ppm to be completely unacceptable. So, if you're doing a water change with water that has a PO4 level near or above 0.1ppm then you're sunk before you start unless you can quickly export the excess Phosphate.
I would agree, since any level over 0.025ppm is sufficient to support/promote an algae bloom.
These are statements and test numbers I've gathered though either the EPA website or the Environmental Working Group test results.
Again, agree. EPA or Public safety has no established safe limit on phosphate, because it has not been linked to any specific ill effects to date. The concern with high phosphate levels, such as those shown below is generally the risk of elevated biological agents such as algae in the water. We recently (last fall) had an issue with our tap water smelling and tasting nasty, yet the water was within all normal test parameters for pH, hardness, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, TDS, and alkalinity. It was later revealed that the issue was caused by a microalgae which was not being filtered, because the filtering system was down ~ since the algae was determined to be harmless they didn't inform the public till after the fact. As far as the results below, as stated keep in mind that these are the extreme, most public systems in the US are no where near these levels.
These are some of the extreme test results:
System Average Level
Apple Creek Developmental Center 5.645 ppm
Village of La Rue Public Water Supply La Rue, OH 5.253ppm
West Farmington, Village West Farmington, OH 4.540 ppm
Sherwood Forest Mhp Greenville, OH 4.255 ppm
Shelby Water Treatment Plant Shelby, OH 2.063 ppm
Again, thanks for the info.

 

[scopus tang]

I use a TDS meter so it would be electrical resistance. Not perfect but pretty good.
Yep, electrical resistance should be giving you a pretty accurate reading.
I can't speak for every situation but typically if there is excess algae in a system the PO4 level will be very low or zero. This is because the algae sequesters it very fast. Algae is a fine way to remove phosphate but if it grows out of control it can cause more damage to corals than the phosphate would have.
Indeed, this is the danger inherit in phosphate levels, and therefore why we test for it.
The difference between purifying water with a TDS level of 300 is much much easier than purifying saltwater that has a TDS level of 53,000. The home sized RO units would choke before they got to 100 gallons.
True, but what about a larger system like those that are now being used for city water supplies? Although I suppose the issue here is more the filters themselves rather than the size of the unit.
Once the pure water is added to salt or saltwater it no longer has a problem with ion bonding. I would never consider using pure water for a fresh water aquarium though. Some of the earlier books brought over problems found in fresh water but are not problems in salt water. Many of the myths are still very alive and kicking. Here are a couple examples:
Fair enough, this is probably where my issue lies, since most of my aquarium keeping has involved freshwater, rather than salt.
Don't use Calcium carbonate based sand - In freshwater the sand would slowly dissolve leading to extremely hard water. It's not a problem in saltwater because Calcium and Carbonate are desireable elements and the PH is too high for it to dissolve anyway.
As with anything in the hobby, depends on what your are trying to accomplish. Most of my 12+ (various sizes from 15 to 100 gallons) FW systems are set up with CC or oyster shell as the substrate. I keep African Cichlids, and they require a much higher pH and hardness than most fish, thus CC is the perfect substrate for them. I have to disagree however, that CC will not dissolve in SW because of the pH. How many shells from invertes have dissolved in your aquarium? If you check these shells in your system, you're going to find that those that are not part of a living snail are in various states of decay, caused by the dissolving of the calcium carbonate of which they are composed. I will agree that it dissolves much more slowly, but it does still dissolve.
I guess my personal biggest concern with this is the notion that you completly control what is being added to your aquarium once you establish 0TDS reading. In reality (at least IMO), your salt mix controls what is being added, and just because a company tells you that their saltmix contains all necessary major, minor, and trace elements in the proper concentrations to support marine life doesn't really mean that it does. Most of the trace, minor, and even a few of the major elements found in sea water (almost all of which are part of the TDS) are not tested for and cannot be tested for by the amatuer aquarist. I guess if you have enough faith in the quality control of your salt manufactorer you can sleep soundly at night. As for me, I'll take the risk of minor algae growth that comes with using RO water, and the knowledge that my water has at least some of the DS that are required to sustain life.
Its been an interesting discussion, and I've certainly learned a lot. Appreciate everyones input and thanks to MaDuncan for starting this thread, although I doubt that he had any idea where it would end up going.

 

[bang guy]

I'll end by saying you are absolutely correct about salt mixes. They vary greatly from mix to mix and I've seen them vary bucket by bucket of the same mix. So you speak the truth, we don't know exactly what goes in. An aquarium salt manufacturer won't stay in business long if their salt can't support life though.
If you know your tap doesn't have nasties like Zinc, Copper, or Tin it does seem a shame to filter out all that Calcium. But if you don't know I feel it is much safer to filter everything out before using it.
Also keep in mind that it can take a year or two for something like Copper to build up to the point where your snails start dying. I see it a lot "my snails are dying for no reason". Well, they don't die for no reason.
Thanks again!

 

[fats71]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2516376
As far as tapwater in MO, I know for a fact that if there are quality issues municipalities add chlorine in copious amounts. I'm sure the same is true on base.
Your 5.0 nitrate reading is a concern.
What do you feed and how much?
Do you have dead spots where food and waste can build up creating little "nitrate factories"?
What filtration do you use?
Do you have a skimmer?
What does your skimmate look/smell like?
I am using a emperor 400 also a skilter 400 whicch is a filter skimmer (crappy I know just waiting on a rino 100 for my real skimmer to go into my wet/dry I just added and then I will remove thhe skilter 400.
I have a koralia 4 and a koralia 3 about mid height in my tank somehwat off set so the water they shoot at each other is alittle off but still connects. I have a diamond gobie, blue spotted puffer, 3 damsels and a clown.
I have around 10 different snails I think one is mexican turbo and two other regular turbos. and some smaller ones that are supposed to dig around int he sand super small guys about 5 of them or so. My sand looks perfect otherr than I had one spot with what I think was diatom about 1x1 inch but it is gone now. the sand looks clean the rock looks nice other than my picana rock has a goldish brown algae on it that thhe snails work on for a bit and then move to other spots.
I am feeding omegea one oremium formula flake/ brine flake with vitamins and premium frozen brine which it was gut-loaded and enriched. I usually mix them all together and feed twice daily. Once when lights go on and once when lights are almost off. it is not more than thhey can eat within 2 minutes and what they dont get hits the emperor and is sucked thru it. I am thinking about changing m pads int he skilter they look alittle bad but it has only been a month. I replaced the ones in the emperor already and changed the charcoal once already.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Fats71
http:///forum/post/2517452
I am feeding omegea one oremium formula flake/ brine flake with vitamins and premium frozen brine which it was gut-loaded and enriched. I usually mix them all together and feed twice daily. Once when lights go on and once when lights are almost off. it is not more than thhey can eat within 2 minutes and what they dont get hits the emperor and is sucked thru it. I am thinking about changing m pads int he skilter they look alittle bad but it has only been a month. I replaced the ones in the emperor already and changed the charcoal once already.
I think you are overfeeding.
I would stop feeding frozen brine shrimp altogether. Try frozen mysis shrimp only once a day or every other day, definitely not twice a day. Rinsing your frozen food will help cut down on proteins added to your water column. Alternate with the flake if you want.
I think you have food building up and decaying. Each time you do a water change rinse your filter pad in the waste water you removed. This will keep food from building up in the pad and save the bacteria. Replace the pads alternately, not as a pair.
Before a water change use a turkey baster to blow debris out of and from around your rock.
ps...don't totally freak out over 5ppm, I just think you can lower it.

 

[fats71]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2518918
I think you are overfeeding.
I would stop feeding frozen brine shrimp altogether. Try frozen mysis shrimp only once a day or every other day, definitely not twice a day. Rinsing your frozen food will help cut down on proteins added to your water column. Alternate with the flake if you want.
I think you have food building up and decaying. Each time you do a water change rinse your filter pad in the waste water you removed. This will keep food from building up in the pad and save the bacteria. Replace the pads alternately, not as a pair.
Before a water change use a turkey baster to blow debris out of and from around your rock.
ps...don't totally freak out over 5ppm, I just think you can lower it.
Well I added a nice large protein skimmmer into my wet/dry tonight so that should help as well. the skilter kept it super clean as their is nothing coming out thru the new one yet but its only been up a hour plus and dialing it in right is a pain.
Anyway ill cut down on the food and i bought brine mysis tonight when i hit saint louis to help the manderin out as well he eats it when I place in the spots copods are at already.
I am going to cut it to once a day as you suggest but i dont feed much honestly i dont see it being enough but well see.
thanks though.