Do you think your fish are happy?
- Thread starter fishkid13
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kacey
Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3252422
What necessarily states that happiness has to be an advantage? Couldn't maybe happiness, actually hurt humans in the long run? Because when times are really good/happy, that just makes the bad times, that much worse.
I guess I consider happiness to be an advantage mostly because I like feeling it, and I tend to consider things that I like to be advantageous. But, that's a very interesting point you bring up.
To me, happiness seems advantageous because, in general, when we are happy we are surviving successfully. And happiness, feeling better than other states, is something we strive for. So, we strive to be our most successful. In all honesty, I think that tends to pan out better for the fish than for the people. Humans have managed to take way too much pleasure in self-destructive things. That is a talent I certainly consider to belong primarily to the more complicated organisms on the planet.
http:///forum/post/3252422
What necessarily states that happiness has to be an advantage? Couldn't maybe happiness, actually hurt humans in the long run? Because when times are really good/happy, that just makes the bad times, that much worse.
I guess I consider happiness to be an advantage mostly because I like feeling it, and I tend to consider things that I like to be advantageous. But, that's a very interesting point you bring up.
To me, happiness seems advantageous because, in general, when we are happy we are surviving successfully. And happiness, feeling better than other states, is something we strive for. So, we strive to be our most successful. In all honesty, I think that tends to pan out better for the fish than for the people. Humans have managed to take way too much pleasure in self-destructive things. That is a talent I certainly consider to belong primarily to the more complicated organisms on the planet.
aquaknight
Active Member
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3252423
Then sadness and anger must be the disadvantage, because if we didn't have those emotions we would always be happy.
That is some crazy comical logic.
No. If we didn't feel sadness or anger, we would not feel 'happy' all the time, we wouldn't feel anything, really. A common state of being, robot-like. My point with that post was to illustrate the extremes. Yes I'd rather be happy then sad, but as a species on the whole, IMO, why human emotions can get so low/sad/anger, etc, is merely because we possess the ability to get to those states of emotion so high/happy/excited. If lower forms of creatures, say fish, don't get that happy/euphoric, then they don't get that sad/depressed.
http:///forum/post/3252423
Then sadness and anger must be the disadvantage, because if we didn't have those emotions we would always be happy.
That is some crazy comical logic.
No. If we didn't feel sadness or anger, we would not feel 'happy' all the time, we wouldn't feel anything, really. A common state of being, robot-like. My point with that post was to illustrate the extremes. Yes I'd rather be happy then sad, but as a species on the whole, IMO, why human emotions can get so low/sad/anger, etc, is merely because we possess the ability to get to those states of emotion so high/happy/excited. If lower forms of creatures, say fish, don't get that happy/euphoric, then they don't get that sad/depressed.
kacey
Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3252432
No. If we didn't feel sadness or anger, we would not feel 'happy' all the time, we wouldn't feel anything, really. A common state of being, robot-like. My point with that post was to illustrate the extremes. Yes I'd rather be happy then sad, but as a species on the whole, IMO, why human emotions can get so low/sad/anger, etc, is merely because we possess the ability to get to those states of emotion so high/happy/excited. If lower forms of creatures, say fish, don't get that happy/euphoric, then they don't get that sad/depressed.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. That a fish's capacity for depth of emotion is, to excuse the pun, more shallow than ours. That their highs and lows are less high and less low.
http:///forum/post/3252432
No. If we didn't feel sadness or anger, we would not feel 'happy' all the time, we wouldn't feel anything, really. A common state of being, robot-like. My point with that post was to illustrate the extremes. Yes I'd rather be happy then sad, but as a species on the whole, IMO, why human emotions can get so low/sad/anger, etc, is merely because we possess the ability to get to those states of emotion so high/happy/excited. If lower forms of creatures, say fish, don't get that happy/euphoric, then they don't get that sad/depressed.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. That a fish's capacity for depth of emotion is, to excuse the pun, more shallow than ours. That their highs and lows are less high and less low.
noah's nemo
Member
Holy cow,talk about complex answers,geez people,they're fish.Do you enjoy looking into your tank?Theres your answer..........................
ibanez
Member
Originally Posted by Noah's Nemo
http:///forum/post/3252497
Holy cow,talk about complex answers,geez people,they're fish.Do you enjoy looking into your tank?Theres your answer..........................
Is it too hard for you to think that hard? Deep thinking is what has allowed us to keep fish. Don't be affraid of thinking. And please let us enjoy our conversation YOU STARTED without complaining about our responses.
http:///forum/post/3252497
Holy cow,talk about complex answers,geez people,they're fish.Do you enjoy looking into your tank?Theres your answer..........................
Is it too hard for you to think that hard? Deep thinking is what has allowed us to keep fish. Don't be affraid of thinking. And please let us enjoy our conversation YOU STARTED without complaining about our responses.
kacey
Member
Originally Posted by Noah's Nemo
http:///forum/post/3252497
Holy cow,talk about complex answers,geez people,they're fish.Do you enjoy looking into your tank?Theres your answer..........................
Actually, I think that's the answer to whether my fish make me happy.
http:///forum/post/3252497
Holy cow,talk about complex answers,geez people,they're fish.Do you enjoy looking into your tank?Theres your answer..........................
Actually, I think that's the answer to whether my fish make me happy.
noah's nemo
Member
If you can't comprehend the simple logic i am trying to say,i'm not going to explain it.
ibanez
Member
Originally Posted by Noah's Nemo
http:///forum/post/3252674
If you can't comprehend the simple logic i am trying to say,i'm not going to explain it.
All those who don't understand your simple logic say "I"
http:///forum/post/3252674
If you can't comprehend the simple logic i am trying to say,i'm not going to explain it.
All those who don't understand your simple logic say "I"
stanlalee
Active Member
I think they are happy everyday they get up something is not trying to EAT them and life is alot less stressful in that regard. For some reason people think fish are swimming around happy go lucky in the ocean. its a kill or be killed struggle for survival. its hard for a fish out there. meanwhile my fish just sit about in the wide open all day long running to the glass waiting for food that cant get away to fall from the sky in a space they probably wouldn't occupy much more of even if they had the whole ocean. yeah I think there good.
Personally I think "happy" is over estimating fishes emotional capabilities. "stressed", "not stressed" is probably as deep as one needs to go. Its no coincidence many small reef fish are known to live LONGER in captivity (per scott micheals reef sih series of books and a few other sources) despite the fact most people believe otherwise.
Personally I think "happy" is over estimating fishes emotional capabilities. "stressed", "not stressed" is probably as deep as one needs to go. Its no coincidence many small reef fish are known to live LONGER in captivity (per scott micheals reef sih series of books and a few other sources) despite the fact most people believe otherwise.
kacey
Member
Originally Posted by Stanlalee
http:///forum/post/3252709
I think they are happy everyday they get up something is not trying to EAT them and life is alot less stressful in that regard. For some reason people think fish are swimming around happy go lucky in the ocean. its a kill or be killed struggle for survival. its hard for a fish out there. meanwhile my fish just sit about in the wide open all day long running to the glass waiting for food that cant get away to fall from the sky in a space they probably wouldn't occupy much more of even if they had the whole ocean. yeah I think there good.
Unless they get sucked into a powerhead, take a carpet dive or the water parameters fluctuate enough to cause one or several fish to perish. They don't usually get eaten in our tanks, but there are dangers to their survival in there. I think fish in captivity can live longer in theory, but the reality is that something often ends their lives prematurely. How many threads on here have you read that talk about fish people have had for years until the tank crashed/they jumped out/they got sucked into the sump/some new arrival harassed them to death.
It's an exchange. In the ocean, there's no safety, but fish have access to everything they've evolved to need in regards to food and habitat. In out tanks, they're less likely to be eaten by something else (though it does occasionally happen) or starve, but they're also stuck in a habitat that we dream up for them that may or may not really be suitable, they're confined to a specific, finite space with neighbors that may or may not attack them based on their own needs and predelictions, and the things they eat are, at best, passable approximations of the diet they'd seek out in the wild.
The truth is, for all we know about reefs and oceans, we, (humans, not just hobbyists) really don't know all that much. We are a hobby based on some scientific study and a whole lot of educated guesswork. We get better and better at keeping fish and corals, but everything we learn comes with a death toll for these critters. It's the nature of the game. The best we can really say is that the losses we experience today will, hopefully, prevent those same losses tomorrow.
http:///forum/post/3252709
I think they are happy everyday they get up something is not trying to EAT them and life is alot less stressful in that regard. For some reason people think fish are swimming around happy go lucky in the ocean. its a kill or be killed struggle for survival. its hard for a fish out there. meanwhile my fish just sit about in the wide open all day long running to the glass waiting for food that cant get away to fall from the sky in a space they probably wouldn't occupy much more of even if they had the whole ocean. yeah I think there good.
Unless they get sucked into a powerhead, take a carpet dive or the water parameters fluctuate enough to cause one or several fish to perish. They don't usually get eaten in our tanks, but there are dangers to their survival in there. I think fish in captivity can live longer in theory, but the reality is that something often ends their lives prematurely. How many threads on here have you read that talk about fish people have had for years until the tank crashed/they jumped out/they got sucked into the sump/some new arrival harassed them to death.
It's an exchange. In the ocean, there's no safety, but fish have access to everything they've evolved to need in regards to food and habitat. In out tanks, they're less likely to be eaten by something else (though it does occasionally happen) or starve, but they're also stuck in a habitat that we dream up for them that may or may not really be suitable, they're confined to a specific, finite space with neighbors that may or may not attack them based on their own needs and predelictions, and the things they eat are, at best, passable approximations of the diet they'd seek out in the wild.
The truth is, for all we know about reefs and oceans, we, (humans, not just hobbyists) really don't know all that much. We are a hobby based on some scientific study and a whole lot of educated guesswork. We get better and better at keeping fish and corals, but everything we learn comes with a death toll for these critters. It's the nature of the game. The best we can really say is that the losses we experience today will, hopefully, prevent those same losses tomorrow.
mony97
Member
Okay so here is my logical thought on this.. As Cran stated fish are excited to us because we provide them with food it is a pattern that is easy for them to discern and "remember". However, there memory is short lived so at some point or another they will forget the life they once lived and only know the routines we provided for them.
And since the ability to mentally picture or identify with something we have never experienced is exclusive to, well, us our fish do not know they could be any more or less happy there emotions are based on instinct not whether or not they had a good day.
But with all that said I do very much enjoy thinking my fish are happy in every sense of the word and enjoy watching them, which makes all the stress, money, cleaning and trips to the LFS worth it, because all in all there are not that many people that can say they have a piece of the ocean in there home..
Just my .02
And since the ability to mentally picture or identify with something we have never experienced is exclusive to, well, us our fish do not know they could be any more or less happy there emotions are based on instinct not whether or not they had a good day.
But with all that said I do very much enjoy thinking my fish are happy in every sense of the word and enjoy watching them, which makes all the stress, money, cleaning and trips to the LFS worth it, because all in all there are not that many people that can say they have a piece of the ocean in there home..
Just my .02
kacey
Member
Originally Posted by mony97
http:///forum/post/3252872
Okay so here is my logical thought on this.. As Cran stated fish are excited to us because we provide them with food it is a pattern that is easy for them to discern and "remember". However, there memory is short lived so at some point or another they will forget the life they once lived and only know the routines we provided for them.
And since the ability to mentally picture or identify with something we have never experienced is exclusive to, well, us our fish do not know they could be any more or less happy there emotions are based on instinct not whether or not they had a good day.
But with all that said I do very much enjoy thinking my fish are happy in every sense of the word and enjoy watching them, which makes all the stress, money, cleaning and trips to the LFS worth it, because all in all there are not that many people that can say they have a piece of the ocean in there home..
Just my .02
I believe there have been studies done that prove fish have a very good capacity to retain and remember. Goldfish do not, as once thought, have a 3 second memory. The little, plastic castle is not a surprise, every tme.
I don't know that they really have any capacity for reflecting backwards, however. That is, I think if you took a wild-caught fish that lived in a tank for 6 years and re-released it, it would probably be able to remember how to hunt and what predators to avoid (though who knows, it might swim up to hapless snorklers and beg for food), but I don't really think any fish sits in our tank and pines for the ocean. I, persoanlly, think fish can be unhappy, but I don't believe that unhappiness stems from what they left behind in the sea so much as immediate needs that aren't being met in the way most effective for the fish.I do think you hit the nail on the head, though, as to why this hobby exists at all. How rewarding it is for us to see our fish thrive, our corals grow and brighten. It's like having a very persnicky garden that, despite all odds, we make beautiful and, well, happy.
R
richard kagen
Guest
I would have said, no happy is too complex an emotion for fish, but not today...
While we were building out the 125 we could not resist a humma humma trigger at the LFS to keep in the 60 acrylic hex until we were ready. When we got him home, he looked a bit bigger than in the store, but he was doing fine in the hex with everyone else.
Today he went into the 6' 125 and I can tell you that I have now had the pleasure of seeing a happy fish.
While we were building out the 125 we could not resist a humma humma trigger at the LFS to keep in the 60 acrylic hex until we were ready. When we got him home, he looked a bit bigger than in the store, but he was doing fine in the hex with everyone else.
Today he went into the 6' 125 and I can tell you that I have now had the pleasure of seeing a happy fish.