During the cycling process, when my ammonia eventually spikes, what is the best way to handle it?

[travelerjp98]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtza http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it#post_3409093
excellent idea.... At least there aren't any other fish in there right now that I will freak out and stress out as I try to catch these two. I'm sure they will be much happier going back to the LFS as opposed to swimming around a tank that is cycling!
I think the ammonia level just 'spiked' today. My ammonia was at .25 ppm as opposed to 0 today. Hopefully it will move quickly to the nitrite phase of the cycle. I've been seeing a LOT of diatom growth on the live rock, along with a lot of other different types of growth on the rock (including the Button Polyps/Protopalythoa coral. I also see tiny green hairs sprouting up like grass out of the live sand. What is it?? Do you think it's all be to early for this growth to be happening? I thought that cycling took much longer then this. I really would like to keep the coral alive while my tank goes through it's cycling. Any ideas??
yes the damsels will be! The ammonia did spike.
unfortunately the tiny green hairs are a pest algae called "hair algae"
no, definitely not too early for growth... no idea how to keep coral alive during cycling...
and also your just on the first step of cycling... then you have to go through nitrite, than trates, then wait a week...

 

[florida joe]

I have not read through all of the posts but to answer your original question on what to do when you start to read ammonia in starting the nitrogen cycle, my answer is simple get good books on the hobby leave your tank alone and test in a week or so to see how you are getting along. If you do not like to read you can always just sit on your hands

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it/20#post_3409158
I have not read through all of the posts but to answer your original question on what to do when you start to read ammonia in starting the nitrogen cycle, my answer is simple get good books on the hobby leave your tank alone and test in a week or so to see how you are getting along. If you do not like to read you can always just sit on your hands
agree stronly, make a list of what critters you would like in your piece of ocean and if you have any other questions ask. Leave the tank alone, test periodically once a week and enjoy.

 

[spanko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it/20#post_3409158
If you do not like to read you can always just sit on your hands
Second thread recently I have seen you use the "sit on your hands" statement.
Just brings back memories of when the three of our kids when younger would start to get rowdy in the car on long rides, that was what my wife would tell them, "All of you just sit on your hands!" Funny thing was that for the next 15 minutes or so, until they started getting rowdy again, they would all sit there in the back seat on their hands. On of the funniest darn things I saw them do as kids because there was no threat involved, just my wife telling them to do it.

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it/20#post_3410637
Second thread recently I have seen you use the "sit on your hands" statement.
Just brings back memories of when the three of our kids when younger would start to get rowdy in the car on long rides, that was what my wife would tell them, "All of you just sit on your hands!" Funny thing was that for the next 15 minutes or so, until they started getting rowdy again, they would all sit there in the back seat on their hands. On of the funniest darn things I saw them do as kids because there was no threat involved, just my wife telling them to do it.
yes, my Dad would tell that to my sisters and me when driving long distances. my hands would fall asleep quickly, We would wiggle them to wake our hands up and the girls would giggle. Back then I thought that was gross. Lol

 

[tirtza]

Thanks for the advice -it's definitely a test of my patience! When I first posted this question, I thought I knew what I needed to know but I now realize how very little I actually knew. I read 'Salt Water Aquariums for Dummies', and have spent hours upon hours reading different discussion threads on this forum. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know and I actually end up with countless more questions.

For example...
1. This Sunday it will be week #3 and there's only been a small ammonia spike. The LFS guy (who I know now not to trust) says it's possible that because of the amount of live rock and live sand, it's slowing the process down. Is that even possible? It seems like LR and LS would speed it up.
2. After the cycle is done, how long should I wait before I add a protein skimmer?
3. What comprises a 'good' clean up crew for a 29 gallon ('good'...being defined as interesting to look at but most importantly efficient)
4. How long after the cycle is it appropriate to add a clean up crew? Do I follow the same rule (with regards to the clean up crew) as I do with fish and just add one per week so as not to overwhelm the delicate water parameters?
5. How long does it usually take for the organisms on the live rock to spread to the base rock? (My live rock is currently a yellow/brown color with patches of green stuff and some button polyp coral growing on it). The live rock is of course laying on top of the base rock.
6. During the cycling process aside from checking the temp., water level, and salinity, what else should I check on a daily basis? (right now I'm also testing pH, ammonia and nitrites, on a daily basis). Am I over-doing it? I'd hate to waist the testing chemicals.

 

[travelerjp98]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtza http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it/20#post_3410678
Thanks for the advice -it's definitely a test of my patience! When I first posted this question, I thought I knew what I needed to know but I now realize how very little I actually knew. I read 'Salt Water Aquariums for Dummies', and have spent hours upon hours reading different discussion threads on this forum. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know and I actually end up with countless more questions.

It seems that you never get to know everything in this hobby.
For example...
1. This Sunday it will be week #3 and there's only been a small ammonia spike. The LFS guy (who I know now not to trust) says it's possible that because of the amount of live rock and live sand, it's slowing the process down. Is that even possible? It seems like LR and LS would speed it up.
How big is your "small" ammonia spike? We like numbers, not big or small. Regardless, yes it's possible. As long as it goes through the cycle and all three levels spike, your good!

2. After the cycle is done, how long should I wait before I add a protein skimmer?
It depends, if you keep a small bio load you might not even need one, but they are strongly recommended. I would say anywhere from 1-3 months depending on your water parameters, and bio load.
3. What comprises a 'good' clean up crew for a 29 gallon ('good'...being defined as interesting to look at but most importantly efficient) (Combined answer with number 4)
4. How long after the cycle is it appropriate to add a clean up crew? Do I follow the same rule (with regards to the clean up crew) as I do with fish and just add one per week so as not to overwhelm the delicate water parameters?
Yes, a clean up crew should be added like fish not just because of water parameters, but also to make sure that the tank is "dirty" enough.. lol.. or has enough algae for the clean up crew to survive. I would say eventually, and also depending on your fish, etc... A cuc for a 29 gal, imo, with a sand base, would be:
option 1: First add 1 bumble bee snail + 1 astrea snail, 1 blue legged hermit crab, and eventually 1 Spider conch
option 2: 5 nassarius snails, 2 mexican turbo snails, 2 blue legged hermit crabs, and 2 nerite snails.
option 3: (if no fish are too small) 1 arrow crab, 2 turbo snails, 2 astrea snails, and 1 coral banded shrimp.
option 4: 5 camel shrimp, 5 nassarius snails, 2 blue legged hermit crabs.
In my opinion, any of these combos work, and a ton of others could too.
I tried to make some combos that would work for your tank yet are interesting to watch and are a bit different than what most people have!
5. How long does it usually take for the organisms on the live rock to spread to the base rock? (My live rock is currently a yellow/brown color with patches of green stuff and some button polyp coral growing on it). The live rock is of course laying on top of the base rock.
1-3 months
6. During the cycling process aside from checking the temp., water level, and salinity, what else should I check on a daily basis? (right now I'm also testing pH, ammonia and nitrites, on a daily basis). Am I over-doing it? I'd hate to waist the testing chemicals.
When you are cycling, you should measure ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate every 3 days. Once ammonia and nitrite become 0, they only have to be measured weekly, bi-weekly, or even monthly... only do tests more than that if something looks wrong or if there is a death or something.
Don't test pH until you are done cycling. when the tank is done cycling, measure pH every 3 days... then after like 2 weeks, it becomes weekly.
I would also do a weekly test for phosphates. Other monthly tests should be copper (just to make sure), and water hardness.
Once you start keeping corals, you'll also want to measure calcuim, iodine, and other vitamins/trace elements.
Remember, testing water is a little confusing at the start but then you have your weekly and monthly tests and your fine.

 

[tirtza]

Thank you sooooo much for your advice travelorjp98! When the time is right I'm definitely going to use one of those combos you recommended. The 'small ammonia spike is .25 ppm....and even now I can't tell if its really that or 0. I'm actually having a bit of difficulty telling which it is (it looks like it could be 0 or .25) ....perhaps I'm a bit color blind!? I'm going to have to take it to the LFS for confirmation. I took the test tube and color chart next to a bright window and still couldn't be certain.
"Yes, a clean up crew should be added like fish not just because of water parameters, but also to make sure that the tank is "dirty" enough.. lol.. or has enough algae for the clean up crew to survive." - Does this mean add one snail, crab, or shrimp per week? I've read that crabs like to take kill snails and take their shells, and that I should put extra shells in their for them. Would you agree?
Thanks for the advice on testing the water, it's obvious I was going a little overboard by testing everything everyday. I'm having an issue with 'hair algae', should I start testing for phosphates now as opposed to when the cycle is finished?
If I'm purchasing RO water from my LFS, should I still check for water hardness and copper each month?

 

[travelerjp98]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtza http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it/20#post_3410759
Thank you sooooo much for your advice travelorjp98! When the time is right I'm definitely going to use one of those combos you recommended. The 'small ammonia spike is .25 ppm....and even now I can't tell if its really that or 0. I'm actually having a bit of difficulty telling which it is (it looks like it could be 0 or .25) ....perhaps I'm a bit color blind!? I'm going to have to take it to the LFS for confirmation. I took the test tube and color chart next to a bright window and still couldn't be certain.
Don't worry, I'm color blind too!!! What I think happened is that the spike already happened. Did the nitrite or nitrate spike yet?
"Yes, a clean up crew should be added like fish not just because of water parameters, but also to make sure that the tank is "dirty" enough.. lol.. or has enough algae for the clean up crew to survive." - Does this mean add one snail, crab, or shrimp per week? I've read that crabs like to take kill snails and take their shells, and that I should put extra shells in their for them. Would you agree?
It depends on how "dirty" the tank is.. and how well the clean up crew cleans it. So, if, let's say, after you added (x) snail, and it cleaned/ate very little after a couple of days, its safe to add more cuc. I would completley agree on adding extra shells for the crabs. It will keep the crabs happy and the snails, well, alive!
Thanks for the advice on testing the water, it's obvious I was going a little overboard by testing everything everyday. I'm having an issue with 'hair algae', should I start testing for phosphates now as opposed to when the cycle is finished? I wouldn't test for anything during cycling besides nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia. After the cycle is complete and done with, then we move on.
If I'm purchasing RO water from my LFS, should I still check for water hardness and copper each month?
Imo, yes... just in case + it wouldn't hurt. Plus, the tests will last you a while if you only tested monthly.

 

[kiefers]

If you bought the live rock to help with the cycle that good but from what I believe the ammonia spike will pretty much kill off anything on the rock. (just what I have read over and over again)
Your cycle will most definently come to a slow down soon, just be patient and do as Joe said, sit on your hands. you can add your first critter after the parameters are 0, maybe even let it sit for 1 additional week for good measure. additionaly remember this for the rest of your life if you will, the cycle never ends, it's an on going process that lasts as long as your system is up and running. Your water itself is not really cycled but the tank is. Confusing I know.
Check your parameters once a week until everything is 0. Add your critters, CUC, not all at once of coarse, but over a few weeks of time. Your bioload will stress if you add to much to quick and you may get another amm. spike.
Like travelerjp said.... once you start adding corals and pending on the type of corals you must check for other things like calcium, iodide, magnesium and so forth. I don't believe there is a test for trace minerals tho..... hmmm. Don't add anything to your system that you can not test and research things. You'll get the idea soon. and sorry........ for some unknown reason I thought you had 55. lol...... it's been a loooong nite at work.

 

[tirtza]

From what you guys have said, I don't think any spikes could have occurred without me knowing. I've literally been testing ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate every day since I first got the tank running.
The live rock is thriving ( in fact coral has been growing on it) and that leads me to wonder if there ever has been an ammonia spike (because as Keifers stated, the ammonia spike would probably kill off anything that's on it). The ammonia has been at either 0 or .25 ppm (or perhaps somewhere in between) for the past 2 weeks. I can't really tell for sure....(possible color blindness!?!?) lol - tomorrow I'm taking a water sample to the LFS to get confirmation on the ammonia level. The LFS gave me aweful advice and suggested I add two blue damsels to speed up the ammonia spike, they've been in their for exactly two weeks now and nothing has changed. I plan on taking them back to the LSF as soon as possible. It's obvious they are doing nothing to help the ammonia spike!
The live rock has changed colors to a yellow/brown and purple in some areas. It has all sorts of interesting things growing on it most of it I can't identify except the... protopalythoa 'button polyp', and a couple of feather dusters.
It'll be a loooong time before I'm ready for corals (even though some hitch hiked on my live rock! I'm really enjoying this hobby! It's been a dream of mine to have a saltwater aquarium ever since I was a kid. It's truly an addiction. I'm afraid that my poor Boston Terrier pooch has been feeling a little neglected these days.

 

[kiefers]

Just finished feeding my corals and sun coral, going to bed. But first, if your still wide awake, here is some reading on cycling your lil ocean. It's very informative and may help you answer any questions you might have.
Goodnight.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/386044/let-s-talk-about-cycling

 

[tirtza]

Thanks Kiefers! I read the article and it was certainly helpful. I also read the posts that followed, and after reading what Spanko suggested in post #19, I'm beginning to wonder if I created a 'base line bio filter' when I first set up the tank with cured live rock from the LFS. I'm wondering if that's why I have yet to see an ammonia spike (even with the addition of the two damsels). Perhaps the addition of the two damsels did not increase the bio load past the point of the bio filtration capability of the aquarium thus no spikes in parameters???
I guess the only way to find out is to sit and wait and see if anything happens during the next week. I'll keep testing for ammonia and nitrites.
The aquarium is currently 'in the dark' right now anyways. I'm trying to kill off some hair algae by keeping the lights off for 5 days. Yet another reason to send the damsels back to the LFS....they are probably pretty confused about the lack of light. I also had my hand in the tank yesterday trying to pluck out as much hair algae as I could. I think I scared the hell out of them because they've been hiding in the rocks ever since. I'm going to lure them out with some food when they are less stressed in order to catch them.
*Hopefully the hair algae will die, and with that I'm guessing I should see a spike in ammonia (that is unless it doesn't increase the bio load past the bio filtration capacity) .....what do you think?
Thanks again for all of your support and expertise!

 

[spanko]

Sounds like you are doing pretty well so far to me. You will be starting week three of the setup on the 29th or so correct? Couple of observations here.
1. If you are going to remove the damsels do it now. You will probably have to move or take the rock out of the tank to get to them. 2
2. Are you seeing a brown dusting starting to appear on the rocks and sand yet? This would be diatoms another indication of the place along the timeline where your tank is.

 

[tirtza]

Hi Spanko - thanks for writing that great article on cycling Yes, week #3 starts on the 29th. I have definitely seen diatoms on the live rock (as well as zoa coral, a couple of feather dusters, and other un-identifiable stuff) and it's been spreading a bit to the dry rock as well. The live rock looks completely different when compared to how it looked when I originally got it. I've also seen diatoms on the sand. I've included a picture, please let me know what you think. I'm going to take the damsels out right now, and run them over to the LFS. While I'm there is there anything you think I should purchase???

 

[spanko]

Your tank looks good at this point. Do you have any flake fish food? If not get a small cheap can. What I think you should do for the next week is put a small two finger pinch in the tank every day. Then check the ammonia and nitrite every other day. If you do not see any spikes in ammonia and nitrites during the next week and the readings stay at zero then on 05-Sep-2011 go out an get yourself a couple each of Cerith and Nassarius snails. Then one week after that I bet you could go out an get your first fish.
If you do see some spikes then you will know that your bio-filter is still building and you will have to wait on the purchases. Keep talking during this time so we can continue to follow your progress.
It is a slow process, take your time at this stage and you and your tank will be happier later down the road. You will probably be amazed over the next two weeks at the wondrous things you will see starting to pop up in the tank. Keep your filters, heaters, pumps running.
JMO

 

[tirtza]

wow....you all were right, it was so hard to get those damsels out! I had to take out every piece of rock from the aquarium. Those little suckers are so quick! So after my 'swim' in the aquarium I managed to corner them, put them in a Pyrex dish and take them to the LFS. I had them check my water pare miters while I was there (just for confirmation), and they said everything looked perfect except for my pH which they said was low (8.0)
They suggested I use a pH buffer (I have one made by Seachem) daily until my pH reaches 8.3 .... Do you think this is good advice?
I thought it was strange that my pH was low, because it seemed perfect when I checked it day before last. The LFS guy said that different living things in aquarium (coral, algae, ect..) deplete calcium and that affects the pH level. True??

 

[travelerjp98]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtza http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it/20#post_3411051
wow....you all were right, it was so hard to get those damsels out! I had to take out every piece of rock from the aquarium. Those little suckers are so quick! So after my 'swim' in the aquarium I managed to corner them, put them in a Pyrex dish and take them to the LFS. I had them check my water pare miters while I was there (just for confirmation), and they said everything looked perfect except for my pH which they said was low (8.0)
They suggested I use a pH buffer (I have one made by Seachem) daily until my pH reaches 8.3 .... Do you think this is good advice?
I thought it was strange that my pH was low, because it seemed perfect when I checked it day before last. The LFS guy said that different living things in aquarium (coral, algae, ect..) deplete calcium and that affects the pH level. True??
They said that it was "good" because it was all 0. They didn't say anything about the ammonia.
8 is an OK pH. but might as well raise it.

 

[tirtza]

They said that the ammonia level was at 0 ppm as well as nitrites, and nitrates. Do you use a pH buffer? After I raise it to 8.3 by using it on a daily basis, how often should I add it to the tank to maintain that pH?
Thanks again so much for your help! It's really bringing me piece of mind! Funny thing is....I thought aquariums helped calm people, I actually find myself worrying way to much! I'm sure they'll decrease when I get the hang of it

 

[travelerjp98]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtza http:///t/387340/during-the-cycling-process-when-my-ammonia-eventually-spikes-what-is-the-best-way-to-handle-it/20#post_3411072
They said that the ammonia level was at 0 ppm as well as nitrites, and nitrates. Do you use a pH buffer? After I raise it to 8.3 by using it on a daily basis, how often should I add it to the tank to maintain that pH?
No, I don't use a pH puffer. When the pH reaches the proper level of 8.3, it will remain like that without needing any help from the buffer.
Thanks again so much for your help! It's really bringing me piece of mind! Funny thing is....I thought aquariums helped calm people, I actually find myself worrying way to much! I'm sure they'll decrease when I get the hang of it
No problem... aquariums do calm people.. but not when its theirs! LOL... no, you'll get the hang of it eventually and eventually start to RELAX!