Electricians? Grounding probe or no grounding probe?
- Thread starter sleasia
- Start date
saltfan
Active Member
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
The groung probe if properly installed will in effect drain the current from the tank.Thats a good thing.
But Saltfan I think you may be about a 2 or 3 year apprentice, is this so?
Sorry, 23 years. And about your not tripping out the GFCI? How would this be possible with other operators on that hard ground in the water? IE. Pumps? This hard ground would not short out them at the same time it went out? Thus popping the GFCI and or the house circuit?
The groung probe if properly installed will in effect drain the current from the tank.Thats a good thing.
But Saltfan I think you may be about a 2 or 3 year apprentice, is this so?
Sorry, 23 years. And about your not tripping out the GFCI? How would this be possible with other operators on that hard ground in the water? IE. Pumps? This hard ground would not short out them at the same time it went out? Thus popping the GFCI and or the house circuit?
saltfan
Active Member
Originally Posted by sleasia
and if you plug a surge protector into a gfi, then is everything you plug into the surg protector covered by the gfi or not?
One misconception about surge protectors, they are one way, power in trip out, not power out trip outs. So your GFCI on that is not going to help in this case. They trip out when a spike is coming at the items you want protected, not the other way around.
and if you plug a surge protector into a gfi, then is everything you plug into the surg protector covered by the gfi or not?
One misconception about surge protectors, they are one way, power in trip out, not power out trip outs. So your GFCI on that is not going to help in this case. They trip out when a spike is coming at the items you want protected, not the other way around.
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by sleasia
and if you plug a surge protector into a gfi, then is everything you plug into the surg protector covered by the gfi or not?
Yes. A surge protector that is plugged into a GFI will pass along GFI protection to all connected devices. The GFI has to be plugged in between the surge protector and the wall outlet, not the other way around.
and if you plug a surge protector into a gfi, then is everything you plug into the surg protector covered by the gfi or not?
Yes. A surge protector that is plugged into a GFI will pass along GFI protection to all connected devices. The GFI has to be plugged in between the surge protector and the wall outlet, not the other way around.
zman1
Active Member
Some interesting reading from someone that doesn't profit by manufacturing/selling. I was just looking for information other than from manufactures claims.....
GFI
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...alDetails.html
Ground Probe
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...ingProbes.html
Authors Bio.
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/MICHELSON.bio.html
Last day of vacation, I will have to back to work tomorrow -
GFI
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...alDetails.html
Ground Probe
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...ingProbes.html
Authors Bio.
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/MICHELSON.bio.html
Last day of vacation, I will have to back to work tomorrow -
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by jamie814
The grounding probes are not sold to protect the aquarist working in the tank they are sold to protect the inhabitants on the tank from the potentially constant stray voltage that has been linked to head and lateral line erosion.
You're right that that is what they are SOLD FOR, but that's not really what they DO. A ground probe is sold as a magic device, a buzz word, a cure all for everything from neurological disorders to HLLE.
Although we bashed him, Saltfan made a good point. If there is no place for the power to go, you have no stray voltage.
Most electrical failures in a tank are the result of water coming in contact with an electrically live part of defective equipment. Unless there is someplace in that tank to complete the circuit, there will be no "stray voltage." It's just a buzz term, industry hype that helps sell aquarium gadgets. If a live wire is exposed to the water but there is no ground or other path to complete a circuit, no current will flow. Contarary to popular belief, there are no electronic gremlins swimming around waiting to attack the head of a Sailfin Tang or Emperor Angel. The mere contact of a hot wire with water will not cause stray voltage. In order for electricity to do ANYTHING, it must be allowed to flow in a circuit. That's why birds can sit on electrical wires, they are only touching one wire and are hence not part of the circuit, and we don't really hear about "Head and Lateral Feather Erosion (HLFE)."
There are those of you who are ready to jump on me and say "Well I stuck my meter into the water and read voltage, and I don't have a grounding probe ROFL LOL WTF!!!!1111" If that's true, then your water is grounded through something else, or you have two separate pieces of equipment that have failed and completed a circuit from one to the other.
What hurts the fish is the presence of a current flow within the water. That requires something grounded, such as a titanium heater tube, chiller heat exchanger, grounded submersible pump, or grounding proble. That's right, a grounding probe actually HURTS, unless it's paired with a GFI to cut that power off. Saltfan argues that without a grounding probe, since no circuit can be completed in the tank, there is no stray voltage. He's absolutely right, but it does cause a safety issue to the aquarist.
Long story short... don't fall into this stray voltage crap. A grounding probe needs to be used with a GFI, it does not "drain away" or "neutralize" voltage. All it does is assist a GFI in doing it's job.
You're right that that is what they are SOLD FOR, but that's not really what they DO. A ground probe is sold as a magic device, a buzz word, a cure all for everything from neurological disorders to HLLE.
Although we bashed him, Saltfan made a good point. If there is no place for the power to go, you have no stray voltage.
Most electrical failures in a tank are the result of water coming in contact with an electrically live part of defective equipment. Unless there is someplace in that tank to complete the circuit, there will be no "stray voltage." It's just a buzz term, industry hype that helps sell aquarium gadgets. If a live wire is exposed to the water but there is no ground or other path to complete a circuit, no current will flow. Contarary to popular belief, there are no electronic gremlins swimming around waiting to attack the head of a Sailfin Tang or Emperor Angel. The mere contact of a hot wire with water will not cause stray voltage. In order for electricity to do ANYTHING, it must be allowed to flow in a circuit. That's why birds can sit on electrical wires, they are only touching one wire and are hence not part of the circuit, and we don't really hear about "Head and Lateral Feather Erosion (HLFE)."
There are those of you who are ready to jump on me and say "Well I stuck my meter into the water and read voltage, and I don't have a grounding probe ROFL LOL WTF!!!!1111" If that's true, then your water is grounded through something else, or you have two separate pieces of equipment that have failed and completed a circuit from one to the other.
What hurts the fish is the presence of a current flow within the water. That requires something grounded, such as a titanium heater tube, chiller heat exchanger, grounded submersible pump, or grounding proble. That's right, a grounding probe actually HURTS, unless it's paired with a GFI to cut that power off. Saltfan argues that without a grounding probe, since no circuit can be completed in the tank, there is no stray voltage. He's absolutely right, but it does cause a safety issue to the aquarist.
Long story short... don't fall into this stray voltage crap. A grounding probe needs to be used with a GFI, it does not "drain away" or "neutralize" voltage. All it does is assist a GFI in doing it's job.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally Posted by SCSInet
Long story short... don't fall into this stray voltage crap. A grounding probe needs to be used with a GFI, it does not "drain away" or "neutralize" voltage. All it does is assist a GFI in doing it's job.
I agree 100% with this statement. It's a SAFETY issue.
Long story short... don't fall into this stray voltage crap. A grounding probe needs to be used with a GFI, it does not "drain away" or "neutralize" voltage. All it does is assist a GFI in doing it's job.
I agree 100% with this statement. It's a SAFETY issue.
sleasia
Active Member
Ok...here's the decision.. if I lived alone, I'd take out the grounding probe and just turn the .-#+?"&%! tank off whenever I have to do something. But alas, I have kids, some kinda medium small ....and my sump is sitting on the floor in the family room, where its possible for bad stuff to happen (I know, I have to plumb it to the basement, I'm busy reading all those threads also)...so for now I'll do gfci 's and ground probe for safety. Until they are all off to and through college... until I am old ...well, older...and an occasional electrocution might actually be considered therapeutic...somehow...
by the way the other time I electrocuted myself was when one of my tube heaters that was in the sump blew up and was sparking away in the water...Einstein here, forgot to unplug it first and lifted it out by its wet cord.
by the way the other time I electrocuted myself was when one of my tube heaters that was in the sump blew up and was sparking away in the water...Einstein here, forgot to unplug it first and lifted it out by its wet cord.
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by sleasia
by the way the other time I electrocuted myself was when one of my tube heaters that was in the sump blew up and was sparking away in the water...Einstein here, forgot to unplug it first and lifted it out by its wet cord.
:thinking: GFI would have tripped and stopped that... :thinking:
... hmmm but only if you had a grounding probe...
Seems as though we've forgotten about you... gotten so wrapped up in our pissing match of who knows more about this and that.
Electricians are a rip off... you should see what it costs to pay one full time... just get a plug in one if you don't have the means to install a receptacle or breaker yourself. That also makes the double circuit idea Bang Guy mentioned easy... just get two of them, plug each one into the wall, then a power strip into each, and divide your critical equipment across the two power strips. 50 bucks, done deal. The electrician will charge you that much for a hanky he blew his nose in.
by the way the other time I electrocuted myself was when one of my tube heaters that was in the sump blew up and was sparking away in the water...Einstein here, forgot to unplug it first and lifted it out by its wet cord.
:thinking: GFI would have tripped and stopped that... :thinking:
... hmmm but only if you had a grounding probe...
Seems as though we've forgotten about you... gotten so wrapped up in our pissing match of who knows more about this and that.
Electricians are a rip off... you should see what it costs to pay one full time... just get a plug in one if you don't have the means to install a receptacle or breaker yourself. That also makes the double circuit idea Bang Guy mentioned easy... just get two of them, plug each one into the wall, then a power strip into each, and divide your critical equipment across the two power strips. 50 bucks, done deal. The electrician will charge you that much for a hanky he blew his nose in.
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
:thinking: GFI would have tripped and stopped that... :thinking:
... hmmm but only if you had a grounding probe...
Electricians are a rip off... .
It would have tripped it even without the probe.
I suppose plumbers are a rip oiff too? And framers? and sheetrockers? and HV/ac guys? Oh and i pay em full time and good ones are worth it.
:thinking: GFI would have tripped and stopped that... :thinking:
... hmmm but only if you had a grounding probe...
Electricians are a rip off... .
It would have tripped it even without the probe.
I suppose plumbers are a rip oiff too? And framers? and sheetrockers? and HV/ac guys? Oh and i pay em full time and good ones are worth it.
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
I suppose plumbers are a rip oiff too? And framers? and sheetrockers? and HV/ac guys? Oh and i pay em full time and good ones are worth it.
I am with you on this Wattsupdoc......
“If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.”
Red Adair
Or
Will your actions today fall in the realm of unintended consequences for tomorrow...
DB
I suppose plumbers are a rip oiff too? And framers? and sheetrockers? and HV/ac guys? Oh and i pay em full time and good ones are worth it.
I am with you on this Wattsupdoc......
“If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.”
Red Adair
Or
Will your actions today fall in the realm of unintended consequences for tomorrow...
DB
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Originally Posted by SaltFan
Sorry, 23 years. And about your not tripping out the GFCI? How would this be possible with other operators on that hard ground in the water? IE. Pumps? This hard ground would not short out them at the same time it went out? Thus popping the GFCI and or the house circuit?
Without the ground in the water there may be no tripping of the gfi because there is no ground in the water. Unless the pump has a metal outer casing and is somehow in contact with the water then there will be no tripping. If you nick a hot wire and drop it in the tank and there is no connection either through some other equipment or a probe it will not trip. It can not trip. until the ct in the gfi sees the excess amperage then it will not trip. If there is a connection to the ground through the water like is in the chiller then there will be no trip. It will trip the gfi and not the breaker.
23 years and still dont understand watts? I guess some electricians are a rip off.
Sorry, 23 years. And about your not tripping out the GFCI? How would this be possible with other operators on that hard ground in the water? IE. Pumps? This hard ground would not short out them at the same time it went out? Thus popping the GFCI and or the house circuit?
Without the ground in the water there may be no tripping of the gfi because there is no ground in the water. Unless the pump has a metal outer casing and is somehow in contact with the water then there will be no tripping. If you nick a hot wire and drop it in the tank and there is no connection either through some other equipment or a probe it will not trip. It can not trip. until the ct in the gfi sees the excess amperage then it will not trip. If there is a connection to the ground through the water like is in the chiller then there will be no trip. It will trip the gfi and not the breaker.
23 years and still dont understand watts? I guess some electricians are a rip off.
P
phishface
Guest
SCSI
WHOA! Sorry about your problems, but some of us make our living "being rip offs"
WHOA! Sorry about your problems, but some of us make our living "being rip offs"
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Originally Posted by phishface
SCSI
WHOA! Sorry about your problems, but some of us make our living "being rip offs"
sscinet.. I think I should take that personally!
People die from the hands of ameatures working under the disciuse of professionals.
Charlie
SCSI
WHOA! Sorry about your problems, but some of us make our living "being rip offs"
sscinet.. I think I should take that personally!
People die from the hands of ameatures working under the disciuse of professionals.
Charlie
scsinet
Active Member
for crying out loud guys... you act as if I am taking a personal swipe at you
... I was trying to say that dragging an electrician out to install an outlet when you can just buy a plug in unit doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
If you have the means to do the work properly and safely, then the outlet makes sense. I am sure that most electricians will agree that replacing a receptacle, when done properly, according to the manufacturers instructions, and observing local codes and regulations, can be done safely and effectively by a homeowner with a grasp of basic electricity. At the same time, I'm sure they'd agree that if the homeowner is not comfortable doing so, they should not attempt it. At this point, it makes more sense to buy the plug in unit than pay an electrician.
I will also say that given the expense of electricians and the criticality of this safety device, I'd much rather see people buy the plug in unit than forego the GFI all together out of inability or unwillingness to pay the price of an electrician.
Perhaps a better phrase would have been "Electricians are expensive." I'm not trying to make a generalization that electricians are rip offs, nor any other contractor for that matter.
Dudes... seriously... no offense.. sorry.
If you have the means to do the work properly and safely, then the outlet makes sense. I am sure that most electricians will agree that replacing a receptacle, when done properly, according to the manufacturers instructions, and observing local codes and regulations, can be done safely and effectively by a homeowner with a grasp of basic electricity. At the same time, I'm sure they'd agree that if the homeowner is not comfortable doing so, they should not attempt it. At this point, it makes more sense to buy the plug in unit than pay an electrician.
I will also say that given the expense of electricians and the criticality of this safety device, I'd much rather see people buy the plug in unit than forego the GFI all together out of inability or unwillingness to pay the price of an electrician.
Perhaps a better phrase would have been "Electricians are expensive." I'm not trying to make a generalization that electricians are rip offs, nor any other contractor for that matter.
Dudes... seriously... no offense.. sorry.
P
phishface
Guest
LOL, I was only joking. Anybody who is anybody knows that knowledge is power. If you know what your doing, its easy. And in this case, if you dont, you can be killed. Maybe easy isnt the right word, but you know what I mean.
Its like taking your car to the garage for brakes, they charge you $600, next time you buy the book and do it for $120. And lets face it, work sux!
ps
whatupdoc, what do you do?
People die because it was their turn. When your number is up, its up.
Its like taking your car to the garage for brakes, they charge you $600, next time you buy the book and do it for $120. And lets face it, work sux!
ps
whatupdoc, what do you do?
People die because it was their turn. When your number is up, its up.