Emperor and Wrasse have HLLE

[j0hn rambo]

Quick Background.
I have a 125 fish only. It's been running since August '06. The only fish I had in it was a stars and stripes puffer (over a foot) until about a year ago when I added a green bird wrasse. Then last April I added an Emperor Angel. When I first got the wrasse I noticed what appeared to be HLLE while he was in QT. I didn't think much of it and hoped it would improve when I moved him to the larger display. However it's slowly gotten worse over the year. The angel was fine through QT and for the first few months, then I began to noticed lighter spots develop around his face and frontal area. I ignored them thinking it was part of his color change.
I'll admit I have been lazy and this is my fault. I usually only do a water change every month. In fact the last one a did was closer to the 2 month mark. I take out around 40 gallons on each water change.
-Heres my readings
-Ammonia-0
Nitrites-0
PH-7.9
Nitrate-160
Salinity-1.020
I know my Nitrates are horrible. Honestly they always have been high, but it never bothered my Puffer. I'm going to try my best to get them down otherwise I only see this getting worse.
As far as the fish behavior. The puffer has nipped the top back portion of the Angels fin but it's grown almost completely back. The angel doesn't appear to be stressed from the puffer though and usually swims very close to him. I have not seen the puffer bully the angel at all. The puffer nipped his fin during a water change, I think he was just under stress. The angel however chases the wrasse every now and then but the wrasse is to fast. All 3 fish eat great.
Here are my questions.
I read Beths FAQ and saw angels can be sensitive to carbon, I currently have chemi-pure running in my wet/dry. It's getting pretty old.. should I replace it or remove it completely?
For the past year a few times a week I have been putting vita-chem on the frozen food. As well as zoecon which I picked up once this started happening with the wrasse. How exactly should I apply these? At first I would just let the food thaw in water and put a few drops in the water. Lately though I have been letting the frozen food thaw without water for an hour or so and just put 1 or 2 drops on it.
Currently their diet consist of Mussels (the pieces the puffer doesnt get) Shrimp, Angel and Butterfly formula ( under the ingredients it says it contains sponge, but honestly when I see it floating in the tank I mainly see Brine, any other brands that would be better?) I also sometimes get squid and scallops. I just read Beth's post about useing a food processor, I picked one up today and plan on doing that. I just need some more suggestions for the Emperor and the wrasse.
Sorry for the long post. I think I have the majority of it figured out I just need to start taking action but any other advice would be great.

 

[deejeff442]

as far as i know only tangs get hlle.that looks like lymph it will usually go away if the water is good.takes some time.i have been fighting it on my purple in my qt for 2 months now .i just added maracyn two today to see if it helps it along.it usually isnt deadly unless the water quality and stress is ignored.it can only be transfered by contact with each other.get back to the water changes and a variety of foods especialy the angel they need some good angel food with vitimines .

 

[j0hn rambo]

Thanks for the reply, however it's not lymph. I believe lymph is 3-dimensional, the white areas on the angel aren't sticking out though, but appear to be going slightly inward. Same with the wrasse, the wrasse doesn't have any discoloration around the areas but they are going inward. I picked up some sea-weed sheets today and my puffer and angel are eating them. I'm going to the sea food store later today to get a good variety to grind together. Any advice on the medication application or anything else would be great. Thanks.

 

[deejeff442]

if its not lympho must be a bacterial infextion.maricyn two works great but you cannot use it in a tank with lr and inverts .it has to be in a qt.
these infections wont usually go away without meds.they will grow slow and eventually kill the fish.do you have a qt?

 

[meowzer]

Other fish CAN get HLLE. Read this beginning around post 10...I belive it pics an angel with HLLE
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127010/diseased-fish-pictures
ALSO read the treatment for HLLE in this section....follow all that it says, and you will cure your fish....you must have good water, vitamins, and good foods

 

[j0hn rambo]

Thanks again,
But about the zoecon and vita-chem. I've always wondered this. How to apply it? I hear everyone say soak your food in it, by that do you mean put a small amount of water in a cup, with a few drops and let the food sit in it? Or just a few drops directly to the frozen food with no water and let it thaw over the course of an hour? The majority of the food I feed is frozen, so I usually thaw it out in water first.

 

[meowzer]

I place my frozen cubes in a small cup....and I drop a few drops on top
NOW if you thaw you food in water to rinse.....rinse first, then add the vitamins ..just put a couple of drops right on the food...mix...add to tank...YUMMY

 

[beth]

Totally environmental problems. When I saw your nitrates and water change schedule, I nearly fell off my computer chair.
Wet-dry systems are poor exports of nitrates, and, in fact, unless the hobbyist is diligent about maintenance, these tend to be the so-called "nitrate factory"....and I know many will want to scream at me for saying so, but that really is the problem in this particular case. You are just not doing the level of maintenace required to make a wet-dry system work.
While nutrition and zoecon will work toward resolving the issues, they won't solve the problem in a poor fish tank environment.
I'd suggest setting up a salt water mixing tank, it can be as simple as a dedicated kitchen garbage can with a powerhead. Do daily water changes, 1-2 gals daily, in addition to top-offs due to evaporation. You will find this a lot easier than giving up weekend time to do a major water change every two months. And, frankly, most systems are not filtered well enough to go that long without maintenance. Smaller more frequent maintenance is much healthier for your system.
Consider weaning your system off the wet-dry and do something creative with a refugium.
If you want to have an aggressive fish tank, then keep the wet-dry, still following the maintenance I recommended, but then tangs and angels are not the right choice for you unless you can get your trates down to no more than trace....zero is best.

 

[deejeff442]

even if other kinds of fish besides tangs get hlle this is not hlle.hlle is a lateral line .these fish have odd shaped fungus looking spots .looks like the bacteria is eating away the flesh.i am surprised it isnt red.or not yet.
they need antibiotics.
just read beths post.if it is a bad water isue then what is the problem with the fish?

 

[beth]

The pictures posted are not quiet clear on that. I thought at first glance it looked like lymphocyctis, however, then I thought it looked more like HLLE. If those marks are bumps, then lymphocyctis is a better diagnoses.
However, if those marks are eroded flesh that has caused scale degeneration, exposing the flesh beneath, then HLLE.

 

[meowzer]

In post 3, the OP says the white areas are not sticking out...but going inwards...

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by deejeff442
http:///forum/post/3190373
even if other kinds of fish besides tangs get hlle this is not hlle.hlle is a lateral line .these fish have odd shaped fungus looking spots .looks like the bacteria is eating away the flesh.i am surprised it isnt red.or not yet.
they need antibiotics.
just read beths post.if it is a bad water isue then what is the problem with the fish?
Uhh, what does the H stand for in HLLE?

Emperor's are pretty notorious for HLLE IME...

 

[meowzer]

Head

 

[deejeff442]

gottcha learn something all the time.i just havnt seen hlle look like that.
then i wonder if my purple has it also .but mine looks like white round circles but its definitly not ich.

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by deejeff442
http:///forum/post/3190723
gottcha learn something all the time.i just havnt seen hlle look like that.
then i wonder if my purple has it also .but mine looks like white round circles but its definitly not ich.
When my 3 tangs all got HLLE...the yellow and sailfin had the distinctive lines
the blue hippo got the missing patches around the eyes....so IMO..(Beth please correct me if I am wrong) HLLE can also appear like that too....

 

[beth]

Definitely.
Its just the picture here, at first glance, looks more like the warty appearance of lympho. I'm saying the picture appearance is just looking like that, not that this is not HLLE. It is HLLE.

 

[j0hn rambo]

I know this thread has been dead but here’s an update, and I need input.
I'm taking Beth’s advice and transforming my wet/dry into a refugium. A week ago I added mud, along with live rock (I also placed live rock in the chamber where the bio-balls used to be) and cheato algae.
What sponges should I remove? A few days ago I removed the sponges on the over-flow box, as well as the sponge on the intake of the mag-12 return pump. That leaves me with the sponge in the black drip tray at the beginning of the wet/dry and the blue rectangular sponge at the end before the return pump. Should I keep those 2?
Now onto water quality.. My big problem.
Ammonia & Nitrites - 0
PH - 7.8-8.0
Salinity- 1.020
Nitrates - 160 ppm (maybe even higher.. my kits only go to 160).
I tested the water with 2 kits, I don't use RO water, hope to get a filter someday though. However the tap water read at or very close to 0 ppm on nitrates.
The aquarium set-up
125 FOWLR
Cora-life 220 Skimmer
All Glass Aquarium Mega-Flow Model 3 Wet/Dry (now basically a new refugium)
Mag-12 return pump
Koralia 4 power head
This past month I've been really busy but now I'm ready to try to tackle the water issue. 5 days ago I did a 44 gallon water change. I moved all the rock and vacuumed the sand bed really good. I'm taking Beth’s advice and have been doing a 4 gallon water change daily. I also just started cleaning the sponges every few days. Here is where I'm stuck, I've been testing my water daily and still have not seen any improvements on my Nitrates. I understand they won't magically go down to a very low level over night and it will take time, but I'm starting to think my filter system just sucks... they remain at 160 ppm or maybe higher.
I have cut back on the amount of food I feed my fish, but still try to feed the wrasse and the angel 2 to 3 times a day (just in smaller portions). Also would a deeper sand bed help? Currently it's only an inch deep.
Sorry for the long post, I'm trying to post as much information as I can to try to resolve this. I attached pictures of the aquarium and the refugium I built.

 

[dee77]

thats a huge puffer

 

[beth]

I'd ditch the sponges. They impede water flow, and require frequent cleaning. the idea is to build a system that can handle the cleaning via biological filtration.
AirWaterIce makes some nice and reasonably priced RO/DI systems. If you are handy with diy, you can do your own install.
Don't make major changes all at once. Its not easy adding sand after the fact, unless you are willing to remove everything. Rock and animals will need at least a day out of the DT while you add new sand and allow it to settle.

 

[ryancw01]

That is a big puffer. I would start working on a bigger refugium and go the do-it-yourself route. You can buy a long tank that would fit underneath your stand and glue and cut your own baffles (dividers). I would really look at your skimmer production too. Make sure the pump is working really good. You should be soaking that pump in vinegar about every 6-8 months or so for about 24 hours to make sure you get all the crud out of there. I think the tank looks good though. Good rock set-up and awesome fish.