Emperor Angel dying.... need urgent ATTENTION

[guruduck]

Would some experts please diagnose it for me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs02FgRczbo
It first got ick for a week. Quite severe. Over hundreds of white spots even on eyes. Body color was pale. Eyes started cloudy and silvery shiny like covered by a film of silvery slime.
I took it out to hospital tank yesterday. Add Copper safe 5ml per 4 gallons of water. Lower salinity from 1.024 to 1.016. Water temp 83F.
Today, whole body is white. Weak and not response to food. Just sit at a corner. I do not see slime or ick on body.
It is Fungus, bacteria or virus?
What mediation to add? Help please. Urgent
Thanks a million
Guruduck

 

[michaeltx]

what did it look like when you took it out of the hospital tank?
also how fast or slow did you change the salinity?
to me 83 is a little high on the temp. I prefer closer to the 80 mark.
mike

 

[guruduck]

Hi Mike,
In main tank, it hid behind rock. Only when food came, it came out but did not catch any.
When I took it out of the main display to hospital tank. it was swimming better. Hiding in shade.
Color was a little bit better.
Salinity was lowered in a course of 3 hours.
cannot change temp unless I put a chiller to it, which I don't want to.
Thanks
Guruduck

 

[michaeltx]

I am going to let some of the others with a little more knowledge on how to treat fish symptoms. I am in no way an expert in this. I have been lucky to not have to deal with a lot of fish diseases.
but a few things that will also help with the more knowledgeable folks show up.
does he in general look the same as he did in the main tank.
alot of fish will start to change to a paler color when they are stressed or trying to hide and blend in.
is there anything in the tank that he can hide behind? I can not open the video for some reason.
that is a large swing in salinity even for a three hour mark IMO
does he still show signs of ich or the other symptoms that you were talking about or is this what prompted the move to hospital tank?
Mike

 

[meowzer]

What size is that hospital tank? Can you put a fan on it to lower the temp some?
Did yo uread this on Hyposalinity?? That fish looks severly stressed...DID you see white dots on the fish before you put it in the hospital? What are the bubbles I see in the water?
NOTE: This procedure can not be performed in an environment containing live rock, deep sand bed (DSB), or invertebrates [including crabs, snails, corals, etc.] If you have a strictly Fish-Only setup, then the treatment can be done within the display, otherwise, you will need to treat infected fish in a quarantine/hospital tank.
Hyposalinity is an effective medication-free way to threat Cryptocaryon irritans (ich). You will need: Refractometer or a glass hydrometer calibrated to tank temperatures, pH buffers, a tank or quarantine area for the infected fish that is adequately filtered.
Hyposalinity is a procedure involving lowering the salinity from normal tank levels to 14 ppt (1.009 Specific Gravity) over the course of 48 hours. This is done by doing a series of small water changes using fresh dechlorinated water. During the procedure, pH must be closely monitored as pH tends to drop as water become less saline. Fish are maintained in hyposaline conditions for three weeks after all symptoms are gone. Again, accurate measuring is essential, and the standard swing arm hydrometers are not going to work. A refractometer or large glass lab grade hydrometer calibrated to tank temperatures is needed. Once the fish have been asymptotic for three weeks, the salinity is then raised back to display tank levels over the course of a week. Fish can not tolerate rapid increases in salinity. Leave the fish in quarantine at display tank levels for another week.
Your display will now have been fish-less for at least four weeks, sufficient time to allow the parasite’s life cycle to be interrupted. Cryptocaryon irritans (ich) .is an obligate parasite that requires a fish host. No fish=No host=No parasite. Ich is a fish-only parasite, it will not affect inverts.
Continue to monitor pH daily during the process and be prepared with buffers to address any pH problems. Also keep the water clean through proper filtration.

 

[tangs rule]

I can't tell from when the OP (original poster) did a huge SG swing during the hypo - but that was TOO big/TOO FAST, and likely caused osmotic shock - which is usually fatal. hyposalinity required a sg of 1.009 max for several (6+) weeks and it SHOULD take at least 48 hours to come down from DT levels and a full WEEK to come back up. Rapid swings in SG will kill fish faster than ich can. It also takes 6+ weeks of main tank Fallow (fishless) to allow the ich to naturally become extinct - or any other fish in there will keep it alive/suffer too.
Sorry for your loss, there are SEVERAL threads discussing performing a hypo with good chances for success....Also, adding "coppersafe" meds to a fish already in hypo is something I do, but others don;t reccommend. If you DO mix the 2 treatments - 83 is likely too warm, as copper meds make the water LESS saturated with oxygen, and I usually run an air pump & stone to help keep the O2 levels high. Warm water ALSO makes the water LESS oxygen saturated, so having both conditions usually requires an airpump&stone. I've never used cupramine with hypo.

 

[siptang]

in course of three hours????
that's way too fast.
gradually changes are the best.
lower it slowly, daily.
don't shock the fish.

 

[tangs rule]

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzer http:///forum/thread/387275/emperor-angel-dying-need-urgent-attention#post_3406375
Did yo uread this on Hyposalinity?? That fish looks severly stressed...DID you see white dots on the fish before you put it in the hospital? What are the bubbles I see in the water?
Water level low in the tank - likely the filter unit trickles water into the tank, causing the little bubbles - - that's my guess
Also for the OP - at the end of your video - you show like 4 different types of meds.....Tell me your not combining them all to gether and with copper? that'd be bad.

 

[meowzer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tangs rule http:///forum/thread/387275/emperor-angel-dying-need-urgent-attention#post_3406385
Water level low in the tank - likely the filter unit trickles water into the tank, causing the little bubbles - - that's my guess
Also for the OP - at the end of your video - you show like 4 different types of meds.....Tell me your not combining them all to gether and with copper? that'd be bad.
LOL...I'm thinking he was asking which one to get....(I hope)
BUT puttin that fish in a hospital...dropping the salinity and adding copper all in the course of a couple of hours IS NOT GOOD (IMO)

 

[guruduck]

Thank you for all your inputs.
The situation is out of control. Fish is stressing way too much and almost belly up.. My bad.
Mistake 1: salinity drops too fast
Mistake 2: Mixing hyposalinity with Copper
Mistake 3: Add Triple Sulphur this morning tried to cure bacteria
Mistake 4: always thought higher temperature will help fighting against ick
The bubble is from hangover filter. QT is 10 gal. With nothing but a salt mix bucket lid for fish hiding and the filter. Filter media already cultured with bacteria.
Now, I am doing a 50% water change to get rid of the copper the sulphur. And lower the salnity to 1.008 at the same time. This will take a few hours.
Also using active carbon to absorb remaining copper and sulphur. Dropped some ice cubes to lower temperature.
Any more advise?
thanks
Guruduck

 

[tangs rule]

Quote:
Originally Posted by guruduck http:///forum/thread/387275/emperor-angel-dying-need-urgent-attention#post_3406404
Thank you for all your inputs.
The situation is out of control. Fish is stressing way too much and almost belly up.. My bad.
Mistake 1: salinity drops too fast
Mistake 2: Mixing hyposalinity with Copper
Mistake 3: Add Triple Sulphur this morning tried to cure bacteria
Mistake 4: always thought higher temperature will help fighting against ick
The bubble is from hangover filter. QT is 10 gal. With nothing but a salt mix bucket lid for fish hiding and the filter. Filter media already cultured with bacteria.
Now, I am doing a 50% water change to get rid of the copper the sulphur. And lower the salnity to 1.008 at the same time. This will take a few hours.
Also using active carbon to absorb remaining copper and sulphur. Dropped some ice cubes to lower temperature.
Any more advise?
thanks
Guruduck
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
maintain current levels of SG please - any further lowering WILL kill him faster than any parasite!!!!

 

[tangs rule]

Quote:
Originally Posted by guruduck http:///forum/thread/387275/emperor-angel-dying-need-urgent-attention#post_3406404
Thank you for all your inputs.
The situation is out of control. Fish is stressing way too much and almost belly up.. My bad.
Mistake 1: salinity drops too fast
Mistake 2: Mixing hyposalinity with Copper
Mistake 3: Add Triple Sulphur this morning tried to cure bacteria
Mistake 4: always thought higher temperature will help fighting against ick
The bubble is from hangover filter. QT is 10 gal. With nothing but a salt mix bucket lid for fish hiding and the filter. Filter media already cultured with bacteria.
Now, I am doing a 50% water change to get rid of the copper the sulphur. And lower the salnity to 1.008 at the same time. This will take a few hours.
Also using active carbon to absorb remaining copper and sulphur. Dropped some ice cubes to lower temperature.
Any more advise?
thanks
Guruduck
The situation is out of control because things are happening TOO darn fast!!!
lets go slower -
Mistake 1: salinity drops too fast YES mistake
Mistake 2: Mixing hyposalinity with Copper NOT necessarirly
Mistake 3: Add Triple Sulphur this morning tried to cure bacteria YES mistake
Mistake 4: always thought higher temperature will help fighting against ick NO it does not help
The 50% waterchange may not be a bad idea - but exact SG water should be used - DONOT change SG anymore till THINGS STABILIZE
Honestly - I'd just let the carbon remove the CU and S.....you say your running some, it'll remove alot of the meds pretty quick in a 10 gal... - do a partial w/c 2morrow if he's still alive.
In a minute - let me post some links to threads where alot of Qtine/hospital tank data has previously been typed by some of us..

 

[meowzer]

OH MY.....You definitely need to STOP lowering the salinity....BUT you have a large fish in a 10G SOOOOO water changes will be necessary to keep ammonia from building due to large load
DO...the w/c the same salinity you have it now....and SLOW DOWN......DO NOT THROW ICE IN......you do not want temp swings...that is not good either....
I asked you earlier...CAN YOU ADD A FAN to blow the top of the water????

 

[beth]

Wow you made every mistake you could make. Sorry to hear.
Was your hospital tank even cycled? Use carbon to get all those meds out. I agree that you fish are very likely not going to survive this. A water change would be good, but only with salt water that matches the salinity currently in the hospital and salt water that has been mixing for at least a day under a power-head.

 

[siptang]

That fish is also way too big for 10g... i hope it survives...

 

[meowzer]

HEY GURU....would you mind giving some info on your DT....like size, age, water parameters...etc....etc....Just curious

 

[guruduck]

I could not help laughter when I saw this:
Beth said, "Wow you made every mistake you could make"
Thank you for all your great advise. I do not think my angel could make it before sunset (PST). It needs to be sent to ICU and gets detox by blood transfusion and on oxygen mask.
Too sad to learn all these in the hard way. Fish health does turn south in a couple of hours.
My DT is 72gal, with sump. Protein skimmer, chiller on 78F. 80lbs LR, fish only.
1x 8" long naso tang
1x 4" yellow tang
3x clownfish, 2 of them are spawning
2x golden stripe clownfish
1x diana hog
1x red crosis wrasse
3x sergent damel
1x 10" long brittle star
1x purple short spine urchin
Now I need a way to hyposalinity the DT for the remaining ick. Sigh...
I held the rule of QT any new fish for 8 weeks for over 3 years.
But this time, I broke the rule and deserved all these problems.. Big sigh....
Guruduck

 

[guruduck]

Hi meowzer
yes, I could add a fan. Thanks for the tip.
Guruduck

 

[meowzer]

I think I see an issue....you are WAY over stocked....
you have an 8" tang in a 72G tank....YIKES....amongst all the other fish,.,....THEN tried to add an emporer angel....no wonder the fish had issues....that fish IMO was doomed the day you got it
I think you need to get rid of the naso and a few other things....I also find it hard to believe allthose clowns are in that tank and are not fighting...if you want to keep all the smalelr fish, then I suggest you get rid of the yellow tang too.....
IDK what else to say about this

 

[tangs rule]

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzer http:///forum/thread/387275/emperor-angel-dying-need-urgent-attention#post_3406466
I think I see an issue....you are WAY over stocked....
you have an 8" tang in a 72G tank....YIKES....amongst all the other fish,.,....THEN tried to add an emporer angel....no wonder the fish had issues....that fish IMO was doomed the day you got it
I think you need to get rid of the naso and a few other things....I also find it hard to believe allthose clowns are in that tank and are not fighting...if you want to keep all the smalelr fish, then I suggest you get rid of the yellow tang too.....
IDK what else to say about this
+1
Good grief that's just too many fish for anything under 150g. Now you're gonna need to find a 75g qtine tank OR run multiple 20g tanks and prepare to qtine all the fish in your DT. A horrible position to be in. Am sorry to hear this.