ERR! "the fish guy said" More help please re: ich

[scully]

Okay hubby got all the goodies y'all recommended for a QT tank. While there the (f'n) fish buy sold him on Ich Attack (100% organic, safe for inverts blah blah blah) claiming it was necessary because the ich was in the live rock and if we didn't the fish would just get it again afraid coming out of the QT tank.
Is this true? (I read Beth's thread and couldn't come up with the answer there)
Should I put all my fish (the infected hippo and currently uninfected 2 clowns) in the QT?
Should I put this stuff in the tank after I remove the Hippo to QT?
Hubby thinks it won't hurt. But I'm not so sure and I'm starting to hate the fish guy.

 

[scubadoo]

How can it kill the invert parasite and leave all other inverts alone? ANy so-called reef safe treatment defies logic . THe only additive PROVEN to kill parasites is copper...and you NEVER should put that in the display..it will kill the parasites along with all the other inverts. Now that makes sense and is logical.
I know of no additive that will selectively kill off just one invert...ich. ASk your lfs to explain how it works...how it will kill one invert ich and leave the rest alone...IDIOTS!!!!!.
leave the animals in QT and treat with hyposalnity. Return the magic potion....waste of money.

 

[scubadoo]

If your system runs fallow for six weeks you will break the ich cycle. Leave your fish in hypo for about 4 weeks after the last visible sign is gone from the animals. I still would wait before moving them all to QT. Hippos will get ich every now and then...but can kick it on their own. Really a judgement call.

 

[scully]

okay cool. That's what I thought.
Not to be a dumb

[hr]
but I DO put ALL 3 fish in now right? Even the (currently) uninfected ones?
(hippo got first signs of ich yesterday)

 

[scubadoo]

I would wait..but yes..best to do all if the QT tank is big enough.
One additional warning...they may try and sell you a uv as a preventer/killer of ich. THis is one of the BIGGEST scams in the hobby. Most if not all home aquarium uv units are ineffective against the disease. They do marginally improve water quality which can lead to a healthier tank. FLow rates and exposure time to uv renders most if not all aquarium uv's ineffective.
The science given exposure time and flow rate does not support the effectivenss of most if not all aquarium uv's.
A well maintained marine system does not need a uv...big rip-off. Those that swear by them draw a coorelation between disease outbrak and uv. I have a uv and no ich therefore it must work. Ich is brought on by stress (many contibutors), poor water qulaity, temp fluctuations, overcrowding and poor diet. If ich disappears it is because one or any combination of the above contributors improves. One thing for certain........the disease must be present for an outbreak to occur.
If you were to draw up a list for ich prevention...a uv should not be on the list...unless you have the appropriate size, flow rate and exposure time. You would have to slow most flow rates for aqaurium uv's down to a trickle taking weeks for large tanks to completely cycle. At this rate the disease is multiplying way faster then the kill rate.
Will UV kill ich yes? Will my inline or hang on the tank uv kill ich..a big NO!!!
JMO
BIG SCAM......and many hobbyists take the bait.

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
I would wait..but yes..best to do all if the QT tank is big enough.
One additional warning...they may try and sell you a uv as a preventer/killer of ich. THis is one of the BIGGEST scams in the hobby. Most if not all home aquarium uv units are ineffective against the disease. They do marginally improve water quality which can lead to a healthier tank. FLow rates and exposure time to uv renders most if not all aquarium uv's ineffective.
The science given exposure time and flow rate does not support the effectivenss of most if not all aquarium uv's.
A well maintained marine system does not need a uv...big rip-off. Those that swear by them draw a coorelation between disease outbrak and uv. I have a uv and no ich therefore it must work. Ich is brought on by stress (many contibutors), poor water qulaity, temp fluctuations, overcrowding and poor diet. If ich disappears it is because one or any combination of the above contributors improves. One thing for certain........the disease must be present for an outbreak to occur.
If you were to draw up a list for ich prevention...a uv should not be on the list...unless you have the appropriate size, flow rate and exposure time. You would have to slow most flow rates for aqaurium uv's down to a trickle taking weeks for large tanks to completely cycle. At this rate the disease is multiplying way faster then the kill rate.
Will UV kill ich yes? Will my inline or hang on the tank uv kill ich..a big NO!!!
JMO
BIG SCAM......and many hobbyists take the bait.

I wouldn't say BIG SCAM...
But yes, most people do not run it at the proper flow to kill ich.
I run my corallife 18W at 90gph, the guy i got it from was running it at 500gph and wondered why it didn't do anything

 

[scubadoo]

BIG SCAM...just my opinion..but it is an informed one.
An article by Steven Pro....
Treatment Option 9: U.V. Sterilization
Ultraviolet sterilizers work by damaging most anything in the water column that passes through them. Their effectiveness is dependent on the wattage of the unit, the flow rate through the unit, the age of the lamp, the volume of the water being treated, the cleanliness of the sleeve, the clarity of the water, and the decorations (potential hiding spots for tomonts) in the aquarium (Moe, 1989). Colorni & Burgess (1997) discuss the use of UV. They extrapolate from a previous study done on freshwater Ich, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, and UV (If you are so interested, the original article is Gratzek, Gilbert, Lohr, Shotts, and Brown's 1983 piece "Ultraviolet light control of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in a closed fish culture recirculation system." It can be found in the Journal of Fish Diseases volume 6 pages 145-153). In the study, they showed UV could prevent the spread of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis when used on a central system, but could not affect a cure within an individual aquarium. Colorni and Burgess believe the same would hold true with Cryptocaryon irritans. I would concur with them as my own personal/professional experience has demonstrated the same. I have found UV's to be very effective in bare bottom tanks, primarily in retail and wholesale operations. In display aquaria, the volume of the tank, the substrate and rockwork, the flow rate of the UV, and the wattage all work against its effectiveness. In commercial operations, many times, employees wipe down bare bottom tanks daily to maintain a clean appearance for customers. This has the added benefit of knocking loose the cyst stage of the parasite. The bare bottom, minimal decoration, high flow rates, and massive UV units on these systems ensure that most all the cysts and theronts pass through the sterilizer and are neutralized.
Please note that while I have drawn a comparison between freshwater and saltwater Ich, there is no taxonomic relationship. They may appear superficially similar to aquarists and they do in fact share some common features such as life cycle, mode of reproduction, and dispersal mechanism, but they are different and distinct organisms. This is a case of convergent evolution; when different organisms evolve to have a similar appearance because they occupy similar niches. There is a very nice example illustrating this phenomenon located at this website.

 

[beth]

Ich is a FISH parasite. This means the organism must host on fish to survive. Saying that, during the course of the parasite's life cycle, they are in the water column, as well as on hard surfaces, such as sand, rocks, even the shells of snails, etc.
The treatment for fish is hyposalinity. The procedure is detailed in the FAQ Thread at the top of this forum.
The treament for the tank is one or the other of the following:
1. Remove fish from the infected tank. In the absense of fish, ich will die off within 3-4 wks. 3 weeks actually, but for safety's sake, do a month.
2. If you tank is strickly FO, meaning no inverts or live rock, then you may treat tank and fish together with hyposalinity.

 

[triggerfis]

it's best to keep tank fallow for 8 weeks to ensure complete die-off.

 

[scully]

QT tank set up
Fish in tank
day one. fun fun fun... hahah
THANKS AGAIN!

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
BIG SCAM...just my opinion..but it is an informed one.
An article by Steven Pro....
Treatment Option 9: U.V. Sterilization
Ultraviolet sterilizers work by damaging most anything in the water column that passes through them. Their effectiveness is dependent on the wattage of the unit, the flow rate through the unit, the age of the lamp, the volume of the water being treated, the cleanliness of the sleeve, the clarity of the water, and the decorations (potential hiding spots for tomonts) in the aquarium (Moe, 1989). Colorni & Burgess (1997) discuss the use of UV. They extrapolate from a previous study done on freshwater Ich, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, and UV (If you are so interested, the original article is Gratzek, Gilbert, Lohr, Shotts, and Brown's 1983 piece "Ultraviolet light control of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in a closed fish culture recirculation system." It can be found in the Journal of Fish Diseases volume 6 pages 145-153). In the study, they showed UV could prevent the spread of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis when used on a central system, but could not affect a cure within an individual aquarium. Colorni and Burgess believe the same would hold true with Cryptocaryon irritans. I would concur with them as my own personal/professional experience has demonstrated the same. I have found UV's to be very effective in bare bottom tanks, primarily in retail and wholesale operations. In display aquaria, the volume of the tank, the substrate and rockwork, the flow rate of the UV, and the wattage all work against its effectiveness. In commercial operations, many times, employees wipe down bare bottom tanks daily to maintain a clean appearance for customers. This has the added benefit of knocking loose the cyst stage of the parasite. The bare bottom, minimal decoration, high flow rates, and massive UV units on these systems ensure that most all the cysts and theronts pass through the sterilizer and are neutralized.
Please note that while I have drawn a comparison between freshwater and saltwater Ich, there is no taxonomic relationship. They may appear superficially similar to aquarists and they do in fact share some common features such as life cycle, mode of reproduction, and dispersal mechanism, but they are different and distinct organisms. This is a case of convergent evolution; when different organisms evolve to have a similar appearance because they occupy similar niches. There is a very nice example illustrating this phenomenon located at this website.

Anything more recent? He's quoting things from 1983! UV lights were junk, just like all the lights back then...There were no electronic ballasts and HO lights. No Swirl design to increase exposure like the new Corallifes UV lights.
I would like to see something within the past year say the same thing.
I agree old junk like that back in the 80's prolly didn't do a dam thing...

The late 70's early 80's just sucked in general....think of one nice car between those years!

 

[scubadoo]

Steven Pro is a trusted vet that sites his experience. His opinion on UV's is pretty much main stream.
You are entitled to your opinion....I'll stand by mine as UV's being a big scam. Save your money folks..and that's my opinion.

 

[scubadoo]

From Bob Fenner's Wesite..a great site with valuable information.....form the guy himself..a cut and paste
Ultraviolet Sterilizers: Use in Filtration Systems
Ultraviolet (U.V.) radiation is sometimes employed in water purification systems for tropical freshwater, marine, cool water and pond systems. U.V. sterilization can be very effective in reducing free-floating algae, bacteria and other microscopic planktonic organisms. A U-V sterilizer should be of limited value in a properly set-up and operated marine system. Too many people are of the opinion that zapping their water with a ultraviolet device confers some "holy grail" water quality improvement. This is not the case. An adequately sized U-V for the volume of water in a system and rate of post-filtered flow will improve water quality nominally in terms of lowering overall free-floating microbe levels. Additionally there is a slight improvement in dissolved oxygen, oxidation of metabolites, ozone production and skimmer efficiency. It is up to the individual aquarist to decide whether this incremental improvement is worth the cost in procurement, electrical consumption, bulb replacement and maintenance.

 

[scubadoo]

From Jeff Pfohl
Please don't waste your time, and or money on a sterilizer for
your tank. Regardless of what the sales people say, if you know anything
about molecular biology, you will realize that the prospects for this
device working are too slim to warrant the cost. UV radiation, in
theory, should disrupt the ability of a cell to divide by altering
genetic sequences. For the sterilizer to work correctly, the water would
need to be stagnant under the radiation for it to have a positive effect
on any parasites, and this just isn't the case. The transient time of
water rushing by is too small to be effective.

 

[f1shman]

I do not promote the use of UV steralizers because I know they kill much of the stuff that corals eat. But, in my 75 gallon FOWLR, everything I added new to the tank died of ick, but the fish already in the tank were fine. I tried like 5 liquid remedies and I have a starfish in there and a sand sifter that survived through the 5 liquid medicines, and they're inverts (obvisiously). None of it worked. So I bought this totally overpriced UV steralizer at a LFS, after 2 weeks the ick was completely gone, I could actulley add stuff and have since succesfully added a lionfish and queen angel (i know they'll outgrow, but they are fine for now) So in my experience the only thing that has cured ick for me was the UV. I do not keep it on forever, just whenever I see a sign of disease (very very rare), I turn it on for 1 or 2 days and bam its gone.

 

[scully]

Not that it matters to this 'debate' but no LFS guy has ever tried to sell me anythign UV. LOL

 

[scubadoo]

f your fish got better it is because their immuns system improved or the enviornmental factors improved. There is simply more info and consensus that aquarium uv's do little against ich.
If you believe they work then certianly use them. However, the true ich prevention list is as follows: keep stress (many contributors) to a minimum, qt animals for an appropriate period, keep water quality within acceptable levels and steady, feed a well-balanced diet suitable for each animal along with vitamins and a little garlic, temp around 80 and STEADY with minimal fluctuation, and do not overcrowd the system.
If any of the above is present then chances increase for an ich outbreak ......regardless if a uv is part of the system or not.
The science behind uv's and their ability to denature ich simply does not support most uv sterilizers made for the home aquarium
Money is better spent on a top of the line skimmer rathe then possible dividing of "limited" funds between the two pieces of equipment.
For aquarium uv's to be effective, you would have to slow flow rates down to a trickle. At this rate, the disease is mutiplying faster rendering the uv ineffective.
It is understandable why so many beleive they work. as the propaganda put forth by the manufacturers is quite convincing. Simple puffery with little to no science/documentation to support the claims.
Call your manufacture and quiz then regarding flow rates, exposure time, etc and see if there is anyone there that can answer your questions.
The do improve water quaility slightly..and that is about it.

 

[scully]

kinda feel like I'm talking to myself...and in my own thread

Usually it takes me 100-200 posts before that happens

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Scully
Not that it matters to this 'debate' but no LFS guy has ever tried to sell me anythign UV. LOL
Go in an inquire about one...I'm sure you will get the low down then.
Can you tell I think msot UV's are garbage when it comes to ich?

 

[scully]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
Can you tell I think msot UV's are garbage when it comes to ich?

haha nah...didn't really pick up on that!