Even I can't believe this one

[hlcroghan]

I actually agree with you honestly. I think that if you jump across the border and have a kid you should be sent back but being here for years and already having a family and children in school and owning a house, etc, to me, should make some concessions. At least allow them to work legally so they ARE paying taxes. Honestly I don't think that just because we we lucky enough to be born here that those benefits shouldn't be available to other people. If you petition and are a relatively decent person, I don't feel there is any reason you shouldn't be allowed to come here and work and pay into our government. What a great way to up our revenue, right? Let all those illegal people actually work so they can go get legal above-the-table jobs....hmm.......and then give our government money, whoot!

Really I am kind of slap happy right now so forgive me....long long day of dealing with people mad because they didn't get their food stamps immediately (oops I mean nutritional assistance, as we are sooo PC now). I live to serve people!!

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3146905
We can agree to disagree on this because I am not willing to give any concessions to those who came in illegally.
I'm not willing to give any concessions to those who HIRE illegals. Throw them in jail for 20 years, fine the company 1,000,000 dollars/day/employee and force the company executives to pay reparations to the taxpayers whom they rip off by not providing already legally mandated wages and benefits.
How many illegal immigrants are there? How many companies employ them?
Do the math. Who would be easier to go after? Which methodology would solve the problem more quickly?
We've become 4th century Rome. The Emperor is weak, the Senate doesn't give a crap about anything but the party circuit and enriching themselves, and bread and circus games are in plentiful supply to appease the apathetic populace.
Now what?

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/3146046
You are correct. They would receive treatment but that state would not pay for medical insurance for them. It may end up paying for that treatment if the person did not pay for it. A lot of them do actually. That would be a deterrent for them becoming citizens. I was simply stating that the government does not pay for health insurance for illegal immigrants, with the exception of a pregnant woman and ( I did not mention this before) if their income is low enough, parents of American citizens can receive emergency medical if their income is low enough, which means if they are dying the medical could cover the treatment necessary to save their life.
Not quite correct.
EMTALA is an UNFUNDED mandated. If they can't pay, the state or feds DO NOT pay. The physicians get nothing.
In short, no one pays us for the excellent care that is given, yet our bills for malpractice insurance, meds, time, etc are the same.
I cannot write off these expenses either, there is no advantage whatsoever for the physicians in caring for these folks under EMTALA.
No one is turned away, and ethically it is the right thing to do, yet our gov't does not even allow for a token tax break.
In 10 years I bet I've given $300,000+ in free care. I proud of that, yet I get no benefits . I am still vilified for amputations and tonsillectomies by the politicians.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3146971
I'm not willing to give any concessions to those who HIRE illegals. Throw them in jail for 20 years, fine the company 1,000,000 dollars/day/employee and force the company executives to pay reparations to the taxpayers whom they rip off by not providing already legally mandated wages and benefits.
How many illegal immigrants are there? How many companies employ them?
Do the math. Who would be easier to go after? Which methodology would solve the problem more quickly?
We've become 4th century Rome. The Emperor is weak, the Senate doesn't give a crap about anything but the party circuit and enriching themselves, and bread and circus games are in plentiful supply to appease the apathetic populace.
Now what?
Yep, lets just close down the evil corporation, then nobody will have a job.
Going after corporations who have systematically hired illegals is fine with me. However that doesn't solve the problem of them working under the table for a small business or those using phony ID's and paperwork to get a job.

 

[uneverno]

Ok, fair enough.
What's the alternative - complain to our legislators and watch them do nothing? 'Cuz that's what we've got now.
Or should we attempt another "War on Drugs" type thingy. 'Cuz that's worked out well.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3146997
Yep, lets just close down the evil corporation, then nobody will have a job.
What?
I never advocated closing down corporations, nor did I say they were evil.
Just throw the book at those who do hire illegals. It is a crime after all.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3147006
What?
I never advocated closing down corporations, nor did I say they were evil.
Just throw the book at those who do hire illegals. It is a crime after all.
Your first reaction always seems to be to blame the Greedy CEO's and Corporations, just like the other thread. What percentage of the corporations in this country do you think hire illegals knowingly, I'd bet 10% is a gross overstatement. Not that we should give those doing it pass but that isn't going to do much to solve the problem.

 

[uneverno]

I'm not blaming Corporations or CEO's any more than you're apologizing for them.
Are the corporations and their CEO's innocent?
Really?
In hiring illegal immigrants, they have not violated existing law at all?
Seriously?
Lil skit for your viewing pleasure.
K, so I can't block the visual sequences out on the white board 'cuz this format doesn't lend itself well to that, but here's the gist, replete with racist stereotypes (white and non-white both, just to be fair):
Scene 1: 70's video of happy neighborhood butchers carefully slicing a rib steak from the rack (think Sam from "The Brady Bunch.")
Voice Over: "This is your economy."
Scene 2: Some Pancho Villa looking guy on a Greyhound bus en route from El Paso, TX to Greeley, CO.
VO: "This is your economy on illegal immigrants."
Cut to Cows in the CAFO standing ankle deep in their own feces and urine getting fed GMO corn (which makes them sick, which is why we have to feed them antibiotics as well.)
Visual: Smiling Pancho Villa guy in hip-waders shoveling s**t.
Cut to rare rib eye sizzling on a grill. (Can you smell its delicious aroma?)
VO: "Just say no to illegals."
Is that a Clio Award or what?

 

[beazalbob69]

I can just picture it....a bunch of lazy white americans digging holes and cutting grass for all the rich people's yards here in Sarasota, FL. If it was'nt for the mexicans here nobody would do the landscaping jobs! Not to mention all the orange picking so all of us can buy cheap orange's and orange juice. Ya send em all back I am sure all of us real americans will be lining up for those choice jobs and great salary's lol.
There is no cure for this disease that is the United States!

 

[beazalbob69]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3146971
We've become 4th century Rome. The Emperor is weak, the Senate doesn't give a crap about anything but the party circuit and enriching themselves, and bread and circus games are in plentiful supply to appease the apathetic populace.
Now what?
I love this quote! Hit the nail right on the head with this one!

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3147067
I'm not blaming Corporations or CEO's any more than you're apologizing for them.
Are the corporations and their CEO's innocent?
Really?
In hiring illegal immigrants, they have not violated existing law at all?
Seriously?
Lil skit for your viewing pleasure.
K, so I can't block the visual sequences out on the white board 'cuz this format doesn't lend itself well to that, but here's the gist, replete with racist stereotypes (white and non-white both, just to be fair):
Scene 1: 70's video of happy neighborhood butchers carefully slicing a rib steak from the rack (think Sam from "The Brady Bunch.")
Voice Over: "This is your economy."
Scene 2: Some Pancho Villa looking guy on a Greyhound bus en route from El Paso, TX to Greeley, CO.
VO: "This is your economy on illegal immigrants."
Cut to Cows in the CAFO standing ankle deep in their own feces and urine getting fed GMO corn (which makes them sick, which is why we have to feed them antibiotics as well.)
Visual: Smiling Pancho Villa guy in hip-waders shoveling s**t.
Cut to rare rib eye sizzling on a grill. (Can you smell its delicious aroma?)
VO: "Just say no to illegals."
Is that a Clio Award or what?

I am not apologizing for anyone. I am saying the majority of companies don't knowingly hire illegals. On the other hand every single illegal here has broken the law.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by beazalbob69
http:///forum/post/3147160
I can just picture it....a bunch of lazy white americans digging holes and cutting grass for all the rich people's yards here in Sarasota, FL. If it was'nt for the mexicans here nobody would do the landscaping jobs! Not to mention all the orange picking so all of us can buy cheap orange's and orange juice. Ya send em all back I am sure all of us real americans will be lining up for those choice jobs and great salary's lol.
There is no cure for this disease that is the United States!
The majority of the fruit pickers are typically legal migrants. Landscapers on the other hand

I remember back in California in the 80's before they opened up more migrant visas there was a story about a Strawberry farmer who was hurting for help. There was a newspaper article about how much you could make picking them and where to go to hire on. I think out of how many ever number of people showed up 1 actually put in the full day. Very miserable work.
Perhaps they should add landscape worker to the work visa program they have for agriculture.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3147318
I am not apologizing for anyone. I am saying the majority of companies don't knowingly hire illegals. On the other hand every single illegal here has broken the law.

I can expand on this further to show how the hands are tied of companies. I worked for a metal finishing company in minneapolis as the night plant manager. We hired a bunch of Mexican/spanish employees.....When they applied they provided all the correct forms of Identification. SS card, Visa, Drivers license....everything.
They worked for us for two years...most were some of the hardest working people on my crew...Language barrier was tough sometimes, but we were able to work around that. (75% spoke only a little english and not enough to explain scientific processes and give explanations).
2 yrs or so AFTER they had been hired, SS administration gives us a call and says some of their SS numbers aren't matching up. We were told to ask them For the SS card again or a different number. The reasoning was was the card number may have been taken wrong or we may have been given a wrong number. Yeah right. We ask if INS/immigration needs to be involved. They said no, as there was no suspicion and no evidence that the employees were illegal. We were just to ask for the number again and that was it. We were told to give them 3 MONTHS to provide the valid number.....Guess what happenned when we asked for it......let's just say I lost 15-20 employees in one night....
Now is this companies fault for hiring them illegally? Because that is what the company did....they hired illegals.

 

[angler man]

Originally Posted by beazalbob69
http:///forum/post/3147160
I can just picture it....a bunch of lazy white americans digging holes and cutting grass for all the rich people's yards here in Sarasota, FL. If it was'nt for the mexicans here nobody would do the landscaping jobs! Not to mention all the orange picking so all of us can buy cheap orange's and orange juice. Ya send em all back I am sure all of us real americans will be lining up for those choice jobs and great salary's lol.
There is no cure for this disease that is the United States!
First off, if you have enough money in the first place to hire someone else to landscape or manicure your lawn you can spend another 5 bucks an hour to have a legal person do the job.
Cheap oranges? Yeah, that's working out real well. I save a buck on a pound on oranges and spend a thousand times that when I go to the emergency room because some illegal alien got care without even a hesitation of paying for it.
Why would anyone expect people to do medial work for nothing regardless of race. Illegals should not be here period. End of story. If you cannot get some "lazy white guy" to cut your grass try offering him, oh I don't know.....more money or do it yourself. It comes down to what's it worth to you.

 

[hlcroghan]

To answer the question about company knowingly hiring illegals, I have worked for DES here in AZ for 5 years now. I probably call 20+ employers every week. In all that time, I have only ever found 1 employer that knew that her employee was illegal. The rest had no clue, as the *** card they had been give, was real. Absolutely real. Not fake, or made up but someone else's. I even had one lady yell at me and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about. *rolls eyes*.
Anyway, I have had hundreds who use their own children's *** to work though. I don't like it but I certainly can't stop it. They lookd at it this way. Use it and work and feed my kids or don't and uphold the law and my children starve or we are homeless or whatever. I can certainly empathize with why they would do it.
Now about EMTALA, I am sorry I have no experience with that. Never dealt with it at all so you would have to tell me more about it.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3147318
I am saying the majority of companies don't knowingly hire illegals.
I am highly skeptical of that statement.
On the other hand every single illegal here has broken the law.
True, which begs the question: Why does our goverment have zero interest in solving the problem?
My answer would be that both parties major campaign contributors (corporations/corporate sponsored PACs) benefit from the presence of illegal immigrants, largely in the form of cheap labor, hence my skeptecism re: the first statement.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3147408
I am highly skeptical of that statement.
What evidence do you have that creates your skepticism?
I gave a story about how they are hired unknowlingly and another poster gave you accounts on the number of companies they have run across that KNEW the employees were illegal, and they work in the field.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3147410
What evidence do you have that creates your skepticism?
The myriad books I have read about the meat packing industry. Fast Food Nation to cite just one. Conagra in particular turns a blind eye to the practice, not just in meat packing but in many of their processing plants.
The construction/home improvement industries are also notorious.
The food service industry. Srsly - that guy washing dishes or working the line in every restaurant in the country that speaks not a word of English is a citizen? And their employers didn't at least suspect?
Taken together, that is a serious percentage of the workforce. Depending on the estimates one believes, between 20 and 40 million people are here illegally, yet the majority of their employers, people who are smart enough to run a successful business, don't know that? Sorry, not buyin it.
Just to reiterate: it is a crime to hire illegal immigrants and just like unknowingly receiving stolen property, ignorance is no excuse.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3146519
There are plenty of honest employers who get scammed with fake paperwork too..
When it's to good to be true, to find employees working for below minimum wages...

You can finish this line...
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3147444
Taken together, that is a serious percentage of the workforce. Depending on the estimates one believes, between 20 and 40 million people are here illegally, yet the majority of their employers, people who are smart enough to run a successful business, don't know that? Sorry, not buyin it.
Just to reiterate: it is a crime to hire illegal immigrants and just like unknowingly receiving stolen property, ignorance is no excuse.

Perhaps choose not to know

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3147444
The myriad books I have read about the meat packing industry. Fast Food Nation to cite just one. Conagra in particular turns a blind eye to the practice, not just in meat packing but in many of their processing plants.
The construction/home improvement industries are also notorious.
The food service industry. Srsly - that guy washing dishes or working the line in every restaurant in the country that speaks not a word of English is a citizen? And their employers didn't at least suspect?
Taken together, that is a serious percentage of the workforce. Depending on the estimates one believes, between 20 and 40 million people are here illegally, yet the majority of their employers, people who are smart enough to run a successful business, don't know that? Sorry, not buyin it.
Just to reiterate: it is a crime to hire illegal immigrants and just like unknowingly receiving stolen property, ignorance is no excuse.
Lets go with the 40 million people here illegally. Now break that down to the number of illegals working so subtract children (which is roughly 50% of that) that leaves us with 20 million people working here illegally. Now MOST of those type of companies you listed are usually small (and I mean on the small side 10-25 employees at most) that would employ these illegals. This is a small minority of companies hiring these people..
Second point, if the guy doesn't speak english and produces a SS card, drivers license, and an address....Is the company to turn him down to wash dishes just because he can't speak english.....Remember the wonderful discrimination laws we have.
Most of your working illegals...have a SS card and number along with a driver's license. It may be stolen, but you have no way to tell that until SS administration contacts you...and I have shown you how they handle that. The company can suspect sure....but is it more conducive to longevity in the business to hire the individual or risk a lawsuit for discrimination?
The ones that don't have a ss card...usually start their own landscaping company and only work for cash. They advertise in the paper and such...