Even I can't believe this one

[darthtang aw]

You guys are comparing apples and oranges.
Buying a car is nowhere near the same as hiring an employee. Owning a business and lso buying used cars in past I have some experience in this.
1. with institutions such as carfax and such now the buyer can check and see if the car was ever stolen...he can also have the vin number checked out.
2. Hiring an employee, the most you can do is a background check. if the paperwork you are given comes back clean then you have no recourse. If an identity is stolen or forged a background check does not tell you this. If handed the proper paperwork all the employer can do is send it to ss and then wait to hear back...which can take years. And then, even after that you are not allowed to terminate under current law. You have to allow them to provide a NEW social security number....which then has to be checked again......
You guys are blaming the businesses in these cses...when you should be blaming the law.
3. Now, businesses that hire out paying cash and not filing tax status and such for these employees are at fault....

 

[zman1]

Byline: Candice Brooks Higgins
Mar. 9--HAMILTON -- When it comes to hiring illegal immigrants, an immigration attorney told a crowd of about 40 employers Thursday it is not safe to "bury their head in the sand" and pretend ignorance.
Increased work site raids and arrests of illegal workers -- and their employers -- should be a warning, Linda Peck of the Cincinnati law firm Frost, Brown, Todd told the crowd during the forum held at the Butler County Job Center sponsored by the Butler/Warren Ohio Employer Council and The Society for Human Resource Management. ...

 

[zman1]

A company that owns 11 McDonald's restaurants in Nevada was fined one million dollars Wednesday after pleading guilty to employing 58 illegal immigrants.
The company, Mack Associates Inc., knew the employees were illegal immigrants and had offered them names and social security numbers belonging to other people, the US Justice Department said.
The company pleaded guilty in federal court in Las Vegas to conspiracy to encourage and induce an alien's unlawful residence in the United States and aiding and abetting an alien to remain in the country, the department said.
The company's director of operations also pleaded guilty to aiding and abetting an alien to remain in the country.
And the former vice president of Mack Associates pleaded guilty to inducing an illegal alien to remain in the United States and faces a possible sentence of up to five years in prison and a 250,000 dollar five.
About 30 of the illegal workers have returned to their native countries while the rest were allowed to stay in the United States until the case closes.

 

[darthtang aw]

Zman a story from 2007 and a story from 2008 does not make it the norm.....Out of how many stories in three years you have 2 totalling about 58 illegal employees......
In 2008 a little over 500 business were auditted for illegal immigrant employes...2009 there is a little over 600....There are a grand total of over 25 million small business..this does not count corporations or big business that employ or operate in this country either. So as I stated before, it is a small minority of businesses that KNOWINGLY hire illegal immigrants.
That means less that 1% of business knowingly hire illegal immigrants...I highly doubt it is that less than 1% that are employeing illegal immigrants in the numbers of 20 million at this time.

 

[zman1]

Your point being?
First one I found in the list of a search - The crazy LIBs are hiding them now

My point being - The company, Mack Associates Inc., knew the employees were illegal immigrants and had offered them names and social security numbers belonging to other people, the US Justice Department said.
I know it runs counter to your stance of those ultra tricky illegals decieving business. However, it is what it is - just actual examples.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3147884
Your point being?
First one I found in the list of a search - The crazy LIBs are hiding them now

My point being - The company, Mack Associates Inc., knew the employees were illegal immigrants and had offered them names and social security numbers belonging to other people, the US Justice Department said.
I know it runs counter to your stance of those ultra tricky illegals decieving business. However, it is what it is - just actual examples.

Read my previous edit....it actually enhances my point....I posted the statistics of the number of companies audited for illegal workers compared to the total number of businesses....By auditing I mean under investigation as the government had evidence these companies were hiring illegals...

 

[zman1]

What are the millions of illegals doing here if they aren't working... I need to quit my job then - if they can make it without working. I just don't know how they do it. Please tell how can you not hold the people that hire them culpable in the action?
I know this is old

[hr]
Perhaps they aren't going to the right 600 businesses of the 22 million businesses:
http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus.html .00002% of all businesses = 600

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3147893
What are the millions of illegals doing here if thay aren't working... I need to quit my job then - if they can make it without working. I just don't know how they do it. Please tell how can you not hold the people that hire them culpable in the action?
I know this is old

[hr]
Perhaps they aren't going to the right 600 businesses of the 22 million businesses:
http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus.html

Try to follow me here. While I agree some businesses hire illegals knowingly...I am stating the majority of illegals have documents that are either forged or stolen and that is how they get work. I am asking you how I am responsible if someone hands me a birth certificate, valid drivers license, and a Social security crd or a Current Visa? If these documents look to be in order and I send them all in to Social security as I am supposed to do, what more can I do to ensure I have just not hired someone with a stolen identity or forged documents? I have no further course of action I can take. I have to wait to hear from Social security. And if I do hear from them I am not allowed to terminate them or turn them into INS, I have to give them 3 months to provide a set of identification again....which means I have to continue paying this guy I now know is illegal....for up to 3 months.....
I am not even supposed to ask for a birth certificate...just a social security card or visa and a driver's license...and since it is not against the law for illegals to obtained drivers license all they have to do is get a social security card......

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3147896

Try to follow me here. While I agree some businesses hire illegals knowingly...I am stating the majority of illegals have documents that are either forged or stolen and that is how they get work. I am asking you how I am responsible if someone hands me a birth certificate, valid drivers license, and a Social security crd or a Current Visa? If these documents look to be in order and I send them all in to Social security as I am supposed to do, what more can I do to ensure I have just not hired someone with a stolen identity or forged documents? I have no further course of action I can take. I have to wait to hear from Social security. And if I do hear from them I am not allowed to terminate them or turn them into INS, I have to give them 3 months to provide a set of identification again....which means I have to continue paying this guy I now know is illegal....for up to 3 months.....
Well, with this new information from you. I would question their status and let them go without cause during their 90 day probationary period.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3147769
Ah, ok, let's run with that premise. (I'm not sure it's entirely valid, i.e. I could say I didn't know the "owner" of the car was trying to pass stolen goods or that I didn't know the cash payment for the Lambo I was selling as a licensed car dealer came from drug money, both of which have resulted in convictions of the alleged innocent in court cases I've followed, but for the sake of argument let's assume that it is a legitimate excuse.)
There is, therefore, nothing that can be done about illegal immigration. Well, except deporting 40 million people, which is logistically impossible. We don't have the infrastructure or the manpower to do it at present, and to build either would cost the taxpayer too much money.
That must be why the Fed, despite Constitutional mandate, does nothing. They're being fiscally responsible.
I am not a lawyer nor 3rd year law student. I didn't even stay at a Holiday inn last night but my wife is a professional Paralegal with over 20 years experience working mostly with a very prestigious law firm.
It comes down to "reasonable". If someone hands you documents a reasonable person would assume are real, and the transaction involved is one a reasonable person would assume is legitimate a prosecutor isn't going to press charges. If someone were to buy 3 2008 Corvettes for 3 grand a piece and it turns out the titles are forged, then someone has some splainin to do.
If an employer is given a set of documents that look real, and they send in the FICA payments etc, as required by law, where is the problem? Now if they have the same documents for 30 different people, or it turns out 50 percent of their workforce is found to be using fake documents, now you have an issue.
I don't think we can deport 20 million Illegals but we can thin the herd to get them out of the better jobs US citizens are willing to do.. The easiest way would be to require an account check on anyone being hired and having the IRS, Social Security and the IRS compare records. It would take a change in the privacy laws but is totally workable. If an employee says the last job was in Podunk Pensyltucky and you run a check on the Social Security number they presented and it turns out the person has been dead for 30 years or there is a record of FICA payments being made to that account from Missoula Montana it is a pretty good bet this person is not who they claim to be. If the IRS and SS records dont Jive then you either have an illegal or a tax cheat and in either case they should be investigated.
Do that and end all public services to illegals and you are going to have some leaving on their own. Thats the stick. For the carrot allow those here with a job and no serious criminal record to get a legal work visa.
That seems to be a pretty simple solution to me but do you think the politicians will go for it?

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3147897
Well, with this new information from you. I would question their status and let them go without cause during their 90 day probationary period.

I posted this further up...and usually it takes social security a year or two past the hiring date to inform you of something not right......which means I am passed my 90 day period........Plus they tell me I CAN'T fire the individual or let them go in light of this....

 

[zman1]

Reef I like most of what you said here

I doubt it, on the politicians going for it - it's too middle of the road

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3147905
Reef I like most of what you said here

I doubt it, on the politicians going for it - it's too middle of the road

I would add some sort of community service to compensate for the violation of law though......once the community service is completed they can have legal status...

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3147897
Well, with this new information from you. I would question their status and let them go without cause during their 90 day probationary period.

You don't get what he is saying. Once Social Security notifies him he has to give the employee the 90 days to "correct the mistake". That could be a year and a half after the person was hired. So now the person gives you the "right" social security number. How long will it take before Social Security notifies him this one was wrong too. It's a joke but under the current system it is what happens.
In a without cause state you could just fire the employee but think about that one in this day and age. Yes, I fired the employee because they don't speak English well and the Social Security number they gave me was wrong. The employer would be crucified for racial profiling.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3147907
I would add some sort of community service to compensate for the violation of law though......once the community service is completed they can have legal status...
You could do all kinds of tweaks but my idea would be give them the visa but I am not sure about the families of those here illegally. I personally would make the family members go home and legally apply for permission to come in. I am not totally sure how it works now but I believe the visa only applies to the worker. I suppose we would have to allow family members already here to stay to appease the bleeding hearts but I wouldn't allow new one to come in. People who want to just hand out citizenship don't seem to realize the number of people that allows them to bring in as members of their "extended families". It is over 100

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3147911
You don't get what he is saying. Once Social Security notifies him he has to give the employee the 90 days to "correct the mistake". That could be a year and a half after the person was hired. So now the person gives you the "right" social security number. How long will it take before Social Security notifies him this one was wrong too. It's a joke but under the current system it is what happens.
In a without cause state you could just fire the employee but think about that one in this day and age. Yes, I fired the employee because they don't speak English well and the Social Security number they gave me was wrong. The employer would be crucified for racial profiling.
Not to mention the ilegal can now go file unemployment with the same number and I have to say yes he worked for me and yes I laid him off or fired him without documentation.