Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

[saltymac2012]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/160#post_3490879
And that is pretty much my point with the bible discussion. So, why trust literally when it comes to science? If God wanted it to be about science it would look totally different. It is a spiritual book. Humanity was given the brain to come up with the science stuff. Are we really supposed to believe that a man was swallowed by a big fish, lived within for 3 days, and then came out and lived on. (Lets not mention how many pagan stories with a similar theme.)
Its telling that many Jews today, including religious Jews and even rabbis, do not deny the science of evolution and do not see a conflict between being devote Jews and acceptance of evolution. The Jewish rabbis also don't limit their spiritual guidance to the Torah, but also draw on other religious text to understand their religion and culture.
Maybe the big fish was a ship?

 

[geridoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/160#post_3490861
LOL...I agree all life came from one thing...God Almighty himself. Everything alive except insects and plants has red blood. From the sea-bugs (shrimp and crabs) to the grasshopper. So there is no way that all life came from a single source of DNA as evolution claims. While you can connect in thought the red blooded creatures, you can't connect the goo blooded and the sap blooded living creatures to the same line.
God created each separately...the plants, the bugs, the mammals and then mankind. In that order.
The tree of life:
The tree of Life was in the center of the garden and it's fruit was forbidden to eat. That tree if eaten will cause you to live forever and be as the Angels, so God placed a barrier so mankind can never approach it again. Where is the tree of Life? It is still in the garden, Jesus spoke of that garden....where it is remains a secret, and we won't know until we enter it after death. Life did not stem from the tree, God breathed and spoke and the tree was created, just like everyting else alive. It was a separate thing and mankind was forbidden to even touch it....she did, he did because she gave it to him... and now we get to die.
Evolution does not pretend to address where life came from - evolution is an explanation for the observation of life's diversity. While you may insist that some iron age philosophers figured out how speciation occurred, it is abundantly clear that plants, the bugs and the mammals all arose from a single far distant common ancestor: the fossil record, the DNA analysis and the paleogeology all agree on this point. Religions have always resisted naturalistic explanations of the universe - just ask Galileo. Eventually, even the Catholic Church had to accept that the planets circled the sun, not the earth. It is just taking longer for evolution to be fully accepted since it requires more scientific understanding than was required to understand the organization of the solar system.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#post_3490889
Evolution does not pretend to address where life came from - evolution is an explanation for the observation of life's diversity. While you may insist that some iron age philosophers figured out how speciation occurred, it is abundantly clear that plants, the bugs and the mammals all arose from a single far distant common ancestor: the fossil record, the DNA analysis and the paleogeology all agree on this point. Religions have always resisted naturalistic explanations of the universe - just ask Galileo. Eventually, even the Catholic Church had to accept that the planets circled the sun, not the earth. It is just taking longer for evolution to be fully accepted since it requires more scientific understanding than was required to understand the organization of the solar system.
No is not clear, and it is absolutly not been proven, nor has all the research of fossils, DNA or paleogeology find a way to make it all agree or it would be a fact and not a therory. So it looks like another case of lets agree to disagree. As for me and my house, we will serve HaShem. I will bet my life on religion, considering my health, LOL...I think I'm better off staying with God because evolution isn't going to ever profit me.
I would hate to leave this world in death thinking the future kids of my kids may turn into a bald monkey/man with 6 arms because our society requires us to multi-task and body hair isn't needed anymore..

 

[mantisman51]

And that is the gorilla in the room with evolution. It is all hypothesis, based on observation and yet, anyone who says I have faith in God's creation is lampooned as ignorant and anti-science, when science doesn't have the slightest ability to support evolution-it's all "educated speculation". All of the types of carbon dating are wildly inaccurate and can't even be used with any expectation of even remote reliability beyond about 5000 years. Go ahead, ask me for proof.

 

[geridoc]

Actually, radiocarbon dating is pretty reliable (plus/ minus a few hundred years or less) up to about 30,000 years before present. Since, with few exceptions, evolutionary events occur over millennial+ time spans, you are right - radiocarbon dating is not very useful to evolutionary biologists. However, there are longer-lived radioisotopes that can date with sufficient accuracy into deep time. The dates arrived at using these techniques is confirmed by other methods, mainly geological and molecular biological techniques. It is the agreement from several independent lines of evidence that lend confidence to the estimates.

 

[snakeblitz33]

... and to add to the whole carbon dating thing...
It's not just an isotopic dating in order to determine time in which an animal lived in history... it also relies on geology... what layer of dirt/rock/sediment a fossil is found can help archeologists determine about what time period the animal lived. Of course chemical dating and sedimentary dating isn't going to say "This dinosaur died on 1023042BC on March 14th at 9:05AM.

 

[beth]

Both scientific theory and scientific laws are generally accepted as true among scientists. A theory is much much more than an educated guess.
I think people get confused with "theory" when it comes to evolution. The term is not used the same in the general population as it is with scientists and the terminology they use.
Would any one here argue with any of these?
Cell theory-living things are made of cells
Heliocentric theory-Earth orbits the Sun
Atomic theory-matter is composed of atoms
Theory of plate tectonics-Earth's surface is divided into to plates that move over time

 

[bang guy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#post_3490903
And that is the gorilla in the room with evolution. It is all hypothesis, based on observation and yet, anyone who says I have faith in God's creation is lampooned as ignorant and anti-science, when science doesn't have the slightest ability to support evolution-it's all "educated speculation". All of the types of carbon dating are wildly inaccurate and can't even be used with any expectation of even remote reliability beyond about 5000 years. Go ahead, ask me for proof.
Who lampooned you as ignorant?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#post_3490930
Both scientific theory and scientific laws are generally accepted as true among scientists. A theory is much much more than an educated guess.
I think people get confused with "theory" when it comes to evolution. The term is not used the same in the general population as it is with scientists and the terminology they use.
Would any one here argue with any of these?
Cell theory-living things are made of cells
Heliocentric theory-Earth orbits the Sun
Atomic theory-matter is composed of atoms
Theory of plate tectonics-Earth's surface is divided into to plates that move over time
If there was an opposing theory people would argue their stand. We have to take the scientists word for it that there are atoms, I never seen one...However nobody has given a different view on it and argued it out either.... same thing with earthquakes. They could come up with new evidence tomorrow and folks would just say...okay and go about changing the text books in the school, like they did when they said a new planet was discovered.
As for the sun and Earth...all I can think of it is that the people of that time when they thought the sun went around the Earth...were burning people at the stake as witches. If ever there were a dark ages, that was it for sure.
The theory of evolution claims life is all an accident. Evolutionists think God is a belief without proof and that's what they teach the kids in school.
Well there were quite a few eye witnesses that God was present at the Holy mount, and gave the law of life AKA... the 10 commandments. It was written down and documented. God is not a theory....he said he created it all. I believe the documents that recorded the events. If the God that distroyed the Egyptians...proving he was indeed God.... said he made the world, I am not going to argue with him that it was all just an accident.
Religion was born from people trying to understand God, and many miss the mark simply because they don't want to believe the accounts, and what is asked of them as followers. They want to serve God on their own terms according to their own understanding. So the fight over who is doing things right continues. However, the belief in creation is not a "faith" thing, it is not based on a belief. Thousands of people were eye witnesses of the God that said he made it. I stand on the possition that thousends of eye witnesses trump the scientists that admits evolution is an educated guess on their part.

 

[snakeblitz33]

You know, Paganism is much older than Judism. What makes the God of Abraham any better than what other people had believed for thousands of years before the Jewish people?
You know that there is a creation story in every single culture around the world that never had contact with each other. Different tribes of American Indians have their own creation stories and beliefs. Aboriginees, south American tribes, etc have their own creation stories. What makes the jewish origin and creation story any better than other cultures creation story?
Why does evolution and creationism have to be mutually exclusive??

 

[beth]

Flower, after all that you wrote there, I never perceived that evolution was a vote against God. A belief in evolution by no means takes anything away from God, including creation.
Also, if you are Christian, God never said you can not believe in evolution. He said, you must believe in him.

 

[pezenfuego]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#post_3490958
You know, Paganism is much older than Judism. What makes the God of Abraham any better than what other people had believed for thousands of years before the Jewish people?
You know that there is a creation story in every single culture around the world that never had contact with each other. Different tribes of American Indians have their own creation stories and beliefs. Aboriginees, south American tribes, etc have their own creation stories. What makes the jewish origin and creation story any better than other cultures creation story?
Why does evolution and creationism have to be mutually exclusive??
A loaded question.....
Abraham was a man who thought to himself, there must be a creator who made all things. Not a god of the mountians, or the sea but a God that made it all. So while the story of creation may exist in every culture, only The God of Abraham's account was revealed as the right and correct one.
Abraham left his home land and went searching for that God, (very long story made short) he was acknowledged and God revealed himself to him. It was documented, and the family of Abraham was told they would be enslaved but freed after 400 years.
Just as predicted It was so. After the freedom from Egypt the people were led to the Holy mount by Moses...every time someone kicked or wagged a tongue, The Holy One made it clear that Moses was to be followed, that he was his voice to teach the people. All of this was documented and written down. When the people reached the mountian God revealed himself..there were many, many thousands of witnesses, and it was documented.
Origianl Christianity was Judaism, they just believed Messiah the promised one had come. That was the ONLY difference. Modern Christianity is a mix of the pagan religions and Judaism. No pagan god ever revealed himself, no pagan god ever spoke out. They were the creation of the people who followed them. HaShem, God of the Hebrews is different in that respect. Therefore he is the true God and creator of all.
That fact makes Judaism exclusive, and evolution claims that it was all just an accident. Which is a direct kick against the Creator who revealed himself and says he made it on purpose. The God of Abraham was around long before the Jewish people. The God of Abraham, caused Abraham to stand out and used him to create the people of the book. The people of the book are to keep the Holy writings in tact as God revealed them, so that when the people of the world want to seek him out, they will know what to do.
We can specualte on how God did it...but that speculation no matter how scientific the guess...should it ever claim different than what was revealed, it is a lie and not to be trusted as truth.
Now it's true not all was revealed in detail concerning creation, which allows for some speculation and study, but it must not ever be permitted to leave God out of the loop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth esign/180#post_3490962">
Flower, after all that you wrote there, I never perceived that evolution was a vote against God. A belief in evolution by no means takes anything away from God, including creation.
Also, if you are Christian, God never said you can not believe in evolution. He said, you must believe in him.
Hi,
...I'm not a modern Christian. A vote for evolution as I explained my stand point before, that it's part correct. However when evolution insists that it's all an accident, it's a stand against the scriptures and an attack on God. He said he created it on purpose. God not only insists that you bellieve in him, but that you believe what he says. He said he created it all...on purpose. So if at any point the evolution theory goes beyond the boundary of scripture, it gets rejected.
God never said you can't believe in evolution, but he did say to not follow anyone that teaches different what was revealed on the mount. At a point evolution oversteps that boundary.

 

[snakeblitz33]

You never answered the question. You basically said that a man was given inspiration that he thought was a god and everything he did was written and documented. Does documentation make the God of Abraham any better than what people believed for thousands of years before the Jewish people? I could document my experiences with many pagan Gods and say that my Gods told me that it was right and true and should never be questioned and if anyone did then they would smite them...
I believe in a Divine Creator, just not the Christian or Jewish version of what they think God is...

 

[dragonzim]

Well I must agree with you on this post. It is also considered that Lilith is the goddess that keeps creeping back into worship. Isis and Ashtaroth and now Mary the mother of Jesus (not his true name) and the wiccan junk
Not for nothing, but paganism and "wiccan junk" have been around for a lot longer than Judaism and Christianity and MANY christian holidays occur when they do to coincide with the pagan festivals they were created supplant.

 

[pezenfuego]

I have a new question:
What are the dangers (consequences) of raising a child to believe in Intelligent Design?
What about raising a child to believe In Evolution?
What about teaching him/her both and letting him/her decide?

 

[beth]

There is no danger for any of the above. However, consequences is different than danger. If you mean consequences, then all of the above have different outcomes (consequences). In the end, all humans come to make decisions about what they believe for themselves, whatever they were taught as a child.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#post_3490986
I have a new question:
What are the dangers (consequences) of raising a child to believe in Intelligent Design?
What about raising a child to believe In Evolution?
What about teaching him/her both and letting him/her decide?
The only "danger" would be the childs eternal life. However if you don't believe and worry over such things...well you just don't care. Christians think you will burn forever in hell fire, but scripture doesn't support that. I know they would argue, but that's a debate on a different level and subject. I can only give my point of view on the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonZim http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#post_3490985
Not for nothing, but paganism and "wiccan junk" have been around for a lot longer than Judaism and Christianity and MANY christian holidays occur when they do to coincide with the pagan festivals they were created supplant.
Yes, that's because pagan religions and modern Christianity are co mingled. People used to throw virgins in a burning volcano too, so old does not mean it has merit.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#post_3490997
The only "danger" would be the childs eternal life. However if you don't believe and worry over such things...well you just don't care. Christians think you will burn forever in hell fire, but scripture doesn't support that. I know they would argue, but that's a debate on a different level and subject. I can only give my point of view on the subject.
Yes, that's because pagan religions and modern Christianity are co mingled. People used to throw virgins in a burning volcano too, so old does not mean it has merit.
Yeah, now virgins get to service terrorists in heaven......
I disagree totally that raising a child to believe in evolution or to let the child decide on their own what to believe about creation will result in that person living a Godless life with some undefined bad consequences in the hereafter. Your interpretation allows for no others interpretations but yours. I'll wager you are the only one in this forum that has your belief system. The point being is that people have varying beliefs. That doesn't mean they are Godless.
And here is why I depart from many Christians. Each denomination differs from the other, yet many condemn those who think differently, even among themselves. Unlike what Mantis claims about demoralizing those who believe in the creation as described in the Bible, I have never done that. Unlike God, I am not all-knowing. At the end of the day, I believe God appreciates his creations and is not so ready to condemn on the slightest little point or difference. God is concerned with what we think about him and his spiritual relationship with us.
Again, evolution does not deny God at all. There is nothing in the theory that says you can not believe in God. If anything, in my view, it shows the wonder of how God works. God who designed order in the universe and has no need whatsoever to play magic tricks to prove his worth.

 

[dragonzim]

[quote name="Flower url=/t/392782/evolution-vs-intelligent-design/180#
 Yes, that's because pagan religions and modern Christianity are co mingled. People used to throw virgins in a burning volcano too, so old does not mean it has merit.
And who are you to say their benefits weren't any more valid than yours? A talking bush is so much more beleivable...
It's a fact that histories are written by the winners in a conflict. The story would be a hell of a lot different if the Egyptians had won too.... Wasn't it also your god that wanted king Solomon to cut a baby in half or that Samson lost his strength because some tart cut his hair? Those are just as believable as pele wanting human sacrifices