Fish Are Not For Cycling!!!!

[dskidmore]

Originally Posted by jcrim
Are feeder fish really necessary for our aquarium fish to live? Generally they are unnecessary because fish will eat frozen or dried foods. I agree that the use of fish to cycle is a reckless risk on that fish's life. But to sacrifice feeders is an intentional killing. To condemn one practice and not the other is hypocritical.

Whenever possible it is good practice to wean fish off live foods and onto prepared ones, but sometimes a new or sick fish does need live feeders to encourage it to eat.
Is it really any less cuel for you to feed a fish that was netted or hooked from it's native envrioment and put in the seafood case at the store, or freze-dried in a little bottle, rather then feed a fish bred for the purpose, that gets to live a pampered life up to the moment it is introduced to your hungry friend? :thinking:
I am against feeding live foods anyway, due to the difficulty of continually obtaining a varied and balanced diet, and the increased possibility of introducing disease through live feeders. Live feeders are also likely to increase agression towards smaller tankmates.

 

[hot883]

Then again feeder fish are eaten hole swallowed and die farely quickly. Have your gills burned out and die a slow painful death is a different story. Get over it and move on.!

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by hot883
Then again feeder fish are eaten hole swallowed and die farely quickly. Have your gills burned out and die a slow painful death is a different story. Get over it and move on.!

I think that sums it up...
I'm not a vegetarian by any means either, fwiw. That said, however, I wouldn't try to justify torturing calves...
The point is, millions(?) of damsels are taken from the wild each year. And, my question is, for what? Most tanks don't house damsels long-term as they are aggressive, territorial, long-living, and fast growing. If people would quit cycling tanks with damsels then the market for these fish would diminish.

 

[computrgk]

wow this topic really gathered steam huh?
I Guess most agree it's bad habbit but unless the people know to come here first or ask someone who knows better the trend will continue.
I did have someone tell me he was going to set up a new saltwater tank and he asked what fish should i put in it. I advised him to not put any in it he took a back i said let it cycle with the items i've been told to use here first then give it a couple months test it you know... and so far so good he is not using any "guinnea fish"

 

[viper_930]

Feeders would die pretty quickly, compared to the slow and possibly painful torture of fish in a cycle. Even if a cycling fish doesn't die, I can't imagine it's very comfortable...

Fish are friends, not cyclers!

 

[lion_crazz]

I work at an lfs and before I state my thoughts, I want to say that I am 100% against cycling tanks with damsels. I try to discourage it as much as humanly possible. However, sometimes, it's just as tough for me not to sell damsels to cycle a tank because the customer either says to me 1) Can't you just sell me some fish or something cheap so my kids have something to look at, or 2) Live rock is too expensive, the fish is only $4, and 3) Putting a shrimp in is too boring. I am always trying to sell live rock to customers, but it just does not work as well as I would hope. The majority of non-internet fish keepers are way too impatient and want live things in their tank right now. They do not want to spend the money on rock (even though my store sells it very cheap at 3.79/lb.) And then you tell them about the cocktail shrimp and they don't believe you when you say that that will serve the same purpose. And even if they do believe you, they say that they want something to look at because they are tired of looking at an empty tank. Then you tell them to buy live rock because that has plenty of stuff to look at and you are right back where you started when they say it is too expensive. Plus, even if you do convince them to buy live rock, they then ask you how much is neccessary and then they really become discouraged and want to forget about that idea and go back to damsels because they are cheap. It is so tough to deal with hobbyists sometimes because many are cheap and impatient. They are definitely two qualities you cannot have in this hobby.
Also, feeding your fish feeders is not quite the same. It is to a degree when you are only feeding them for pleasure, like most freshwater people do with their oscars. That, I do believe is wrong because they could buy frozen or dry food for a lot less, it would be way more nutritional, and they would not have to buy live feeders. However, in some cases, like with lions or anglers, it is ncessary to use live food (ghost shrimp) at first because you need to wean them over. To anyone who says using feeders is hypocritical, I ask you, do you think we should just stop keeping these species because you need to wean them onto prepared foods with the use of something live? Besides, the fish that need the feeders anyway eat live food in the wild, so you are only replicating the ecosystem by using live bait to wean your fish over.
The one point I wanted to make with all of this is that the attack should not always be on the lfs. I think sometimes we need to attack the impatient hobbyist just as much, because they are too impatient to buy a book and learn about this hobby before they jump right in.

 

[viper_930]

I agree with lioncrazz. I also work at a LFS and it's hard for me to sell a fish knowing it will be used to cycle, but it's something I can't say no to. I just try to tell the customer their options: damsels, raw shrimp, or LR. And I tell them how it's inhumane to use live fish to cycle a tank, but if they want it they get it.

 

[lion_crazz]

Right. Sometimes you just can't not sell it because then you would lose your job because your manager or owner has no problem selling it to the customer because they are making their money. The hardest part of my job is trying to not sell fish. People think that I am trying to trick them or lie to them because I don't want them to buy a certain fish. But I would think it would be the other way around, as, it would seem I'd be lying to them if I was trying to sell them everything. It's a hard concept for me to understand. Very few people listen before they make mistakes. But it's always the lfs' guys fault when the fish dies, even though you told them not to buy it.

 

[oceanic100]

I agree with the last statement about people being impatient. Usually (almost always) the lfs tells you ahead of time that you need time to cycle the tank before throwing fish in.
I, today, converted my tank to saltwater with no intentions of putting fish in until after a month or so passes. I'm using live rock and coral, along with biozyme, and the key ingredient... PATIENCE.
This is a hobby and is definitely something that is not meant to be rushed. It takes key thought and planning to achieve a stable, active tank.
Also, about the feeder fish, I kind of sit in the middle on that one. I think there are good reasons to use feeders, but I don't want to disease my tank with a bad batch. I lost 20+ african cichlids that way when I had fresh water. Do the fresh water diseases effect saltwater fish? I think frozen and plants are probably the way to go.

 

[lion_crazz]

Could not have said any of it better myself. Very well said.
And as far as the feeders go, I actually try to discourage fresh water and cichlid people from using feeders because of the disease chance (most of the time you can expect a a parasitic disease from feeder fish). However, a saltwater parasite cannot convert to freshwater, and vice versa. However, fatty liver disease is caued by freshwater feeder fish, but this happens to saltwater fish because saltwater fish consume much less fat than freshwater fish and feeders are very high in fat content.

 

[angelsrock]

Originally Posted by jcrim
Are feeder fish really necessary for our aquarium fish to live? Generally they are unnecessary because fish will eat frozen or dried foods. I agree that the use of fish to cycle is a reckless risk on that fish's life. But to sacrifice feeders is an intentional killing. To condemn one practice and not the other is hypocritical.

to be fair you are as well. what do you think that food you are feeding to your fish is. it was once living. sometimes i swear the people on this forum just like to start things. there is nothing wrong with using feeder fish except for the fact that if you're not using another saltwater fish for food then it is not the healthiest for the fish eating the feeder.
on another note, when i first started this hobby i used a blue damsel to cycle my tank along with live sand. he still lives which is 4 years later, and has cycled 3 tanks without a problem. i knew it stressed him out when i did it too. i think it's fine if it's done right. imo i also feel that damsel fish are right down there with feeder fish. they can be bred by the dozens like clownfish. not to say that their life isn't worth anything, but they were there to serve a purpose and i got my use out of him and now he lives a great life. he has plenty of live rock to swim in and out of, lives in a pretty big tank, and eats better than i do.

 

[lion_crazz]

Originally Posted by angelsrock
on another note, when i first started this hobby i used a blue damsel to cycle my tank along with live sand. he still lives which is 4 years later, and has cycled 3 tanks without a problem. i knew it stressed him out when i did it too. i think it's fine if it's done right. imo i also feel that damsel fish are right down there with feeder fish. they can be bred by the dozens like clownfish. not to say that their life isn't worth anything, but they were there to serve a purpose and i got my use out of him and now he lives a great life. he has plenty of live rock to swim in and out of, lives in a pretty big tank, and eats better than i do.
I agree with what you said about the first part, but your argument fell apart after that. If you knew that cycling the tank with the damsel stressed him out, then that is wrong. That is what everyone is saying here. It's not fair to the fish to be put through those conditions. There is no way to "do it right without stressing the fish out. Like stated, it burns their gills because there is very little to no oxygen with a high ammonia level. And if you cycle the tank "right", then you will stress the fish out. It's just a process that is easily done with live rock or a .59 cocktail shrimp from the grocery store. Everyone aganst damsels being cycling fish would like to know why they are neccessary. They do not add anything to the water that live rock does not, or cocktail shrimp do not. Also, where have you seen a damsel breeder before? I don't know about you, but I have never seen tank raised damsels for sale like clownfish are. I commend you for keeping the fish around, but still, you put him through three cycling processes. That is wrong on a moral level because you are intentionally hurting the fish for your own indirect pleasure.

 

[carshark]

i appreciate everyones views here and i wanted to take the time to apologize to all LFS workers or owners who do not believe in this practice or really try to convince the customer that this is not a method that should be done, my main gripe is the LFS' that push this practice...when people ask what fish they can add now, damsels and clowns are the highest priority. instead of saying, now keep in mind that during the cycle the ammonia will skyrocket and hurt the fish internally, burning his gills and making him very very stressed out instead they need to say down the road you will want to add live rock anyway so might as well add it now while you can set it up the way you want and not have to buy it later, it will add beneficial biofiltering as well as proper cover for fish...i dont think(IMO) live rock is pushed enough. i think it may be mentioned but i dont think its stressed enough. as far as the shrimp cycle, it is nine times out ten never mentioned. which is ok, live rock has multiple purposes as well starting a cycle. as far as feeder fish are concerned, i stated before it happens naturally and thats what a fishes diet consists of among other things, but to say that cycling damsels and using feeder fish are on the same plain is ridiculous(IMO). i agree that feeder fish should not be used, for reasons of disease, and the health of your fish, i.e. fat content, true nutritional value etc. again the purpose of this thread was simply what is going on, discussion, and opinions and everyone's opinion is valued in my book , i also appreciate the responses to it!!! i dont agree with the practice of cycling damsels, but then again its just my opinion..

 

[fallinmor]

i agree with u 100% but i have a friend in the hobby and he told me to use damsels, so i listened being that i'm a newb(to taknks at least). i prefer live rock and live sand to cycle plus if u get damsels and had no intention of putting damsels in ur tank that takes up space for the fish u want to get, i u don't get rid of the damsels. my damsels out of the 5 i had 3 died and the 2 left were suffering in an unstable enviroment. not kool man

 

[murph]

If you are in any way offended by the use of live stock to cycle tanks (which by the way there are methods of doing that do little to no harm to a few damsels) then I suggest that you re think being involved in the hobby at all unless you keep only tank raised fish.
When you purchase fish at the lfs you support with your hard earned dollars the harvesting of specimens most usually thousands of miles away, the ensuing nightmare of transport and holding tanks and then keep them in an unnatural environment (your tank) no matter your best efforts. To the laymen the entire hobby could be construed as somewhat cruel and if the nuts at PETA thought there was any money in attacking our hobby they would have a field day.
To then turn around and criticize others for how they decide to break in their tank is no more than the pot calling the kettle black IMO.

 

[celacanthr]

i dont think a wc damsels and wc goby are the same because :
damsels: are bieng put into a deadly and torturing environment
a wc goby: is bieng put in to presumebly safe environment and if their tankmates are chosen correctly then no chance of predators.
also
REALLY!!! there is a safe way to cycle with damsels Ill have to tell my lfs how so they can tell there costumers

so how is it done?

 

[carshark]

interesting, a safe way to cycle with damsels, hmm breakthrough ammonia remover damsels for sale murph has em!!!!! miracle gills as they should be

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by CELACANTHr
i
also
REALLY!!! there is a safe way to cycle with damsels Ill have to tell my lfs how so they can tell there costumers

so how is it done?
It really depends on whether you do a "hard cycle" or a light one.
In a traditional damsel cycling you would get about 1 damsel per 5 gallons and feed the heck out of it, spiking the ammonia almost as high as possible...and then cutting back on the feeding. Obviously, this is not nice.
But you could add a couple of damsels, feed very lightly...and especially if you are using cured LR or LS, you can slowly establish the tank without ever really spiking the ammonia.
These are two schools of thought and both work. But you run the risk with the second one of potentially overstocking suddenly and recycling the tank. I've always prefered to use a "hard cycle" method, but you could do a "slow and steady" type of stocking with minimal cycling, IMO, if you are patient and experienced enough. Seeing as it is easy and often tempting to overfeed fish if you are new and inexperienced, I wouldn't suggest using the "slow and steady" method if you are new to the hobby. At least IMO. But I would say it could be done.
And I would add that fish are transported - regardless of their ultimate destinations - in small bags with declining pH and increasing ammonia levels. There are chemicals added to counteract this, and often fish are not acclimated to avoid the problems of ammonia toxicity with increasing pH. It is not all nice and comfy for all fish in this hobby and that is something to consider. But I am definitely not a proponent of using damsels to hard cycle but have sold fish for the purpose when working at an LFS. I think there are better and cheaper ways of cycling.

 

[celacanthr]

sorry ophiura

 

[carshark]

as i respect the opinion of anyone, especially someone with the knowledge of you ophi, however using fish to cycle a tank never the less is a poor practice, why not be beneficial and recommend a natural cycling process especially like using LR which would be neccessary for a tank in the future anyway? just my stance on it, and anyone who is well practiced in this hobby who would know how to properly do it,more than not wouldnt do this practice anyway, so really the point of a soft cycle is mute anyway, newbies and impatient people are the ones who typically do this....so a hard cycle is destined...