Fish Are Not For Cycling!!!!
- Thread starter carshark
- Start date
carshark
Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
Which is why I do not recommend using fish to cycle.
But it is not to say that there is no other way to do it
Just takes a certain degree of experience and patience.
which from observation of new saltists, is not present...lol either way im not saying you are wrong, im simply stating that people who carry these characteristics are not usually newbies right?
Which is why I do not recommend using fish to cycle.
But it is not to say that there is no other way to do it
which from observation of new saltists, is not present...lol either way im not saying you are wrong, im simply stating that people who carry these characteristics are not usually newbies right?
snailheave
Active Member
fish is for eating! :scared:
murph
Active Member
It is pretty simple these days to cycle with live stock. First an ammonia and nitrite binding agent must be used.
Set up the tank and allow to settle. Use only cured LR. If planning on cycling with live stock a binding agent must be used at this stage. Amquel plus is what I would use but other products probably work just as well, an agent like this is most often added to every bag of fish that is mail ordered to your house or transported from over seas or the animal would not arrive alive.
You also have to understand that it is the free ammonias that are deadly to fish not total ammonias, so your test kit will show high ammonia levels(total ammonias) and your cycle will continue but a light bio load will be virtually unaffected; ie two damsels.
I just cycled a 75 gallon tank in this manner beginning with tap water and performing almost daily water changes with RO water of about five gallons or less, by day 27 ammonia and nitrite levels were reading zero and the damsels were not only healthy but grabbing food so fast it was difficult there after to add other fish and make sure they had a chance to eat. At this point the use of binding agents is no longer necessary.
In years gone by tanks were almost universally cycled with live stock present. The earth did not shake, the walls didn't tumble, and everyones life went on as normal. In years gone by it was also often argued that tanks cycled with livestock eventually become much more stable than tanks cycled by other methods. At the very least when intended species are added to the tank the chances of respikeing the amonia levels are greatly reduced thus saveing fishes lives ( there does that make you feel better)
This is not rocket science guys and there is no need to make it that way.
Set up the tank and allow to settle. Use only cured LR. If planning on cycling with live stock a binding agent must be used at this stage. Amquel plus is what I would use but other products probably work just as well, an agent like this is most often added to every bag of fish that is mail ordered to your house or transported from over seas or the animal would not arrive alive.
You also have to understand that it is the free ammonias that are deadly to fish not total ammonias, so your test kit will show high ammonia levels(total ammonias) and your cycle will continue but a light bio load will be virtually unaffected; ie two damsels.
I just cycled a 75 gallon tank in this manner beginning with tap water and performing almost daily water changes with RO water of about five gallons or less, by day 27 ammonia and nitrite levels were reading zero and the damsels were not only healthy but grabbing food so fast it was difficult there after to add other fish and make sure they had a chance to eat. At this point the use of binding agents is no longer necessary.
In years gone by tanks were almost universally cycled with live stock present. The earth did not shake, the walls didn't tumble, and everyones life went on as normal. In years gone by it was also often argued that tanks cycled with livestock eventually become much more stable than tanks cycled by other methods. At the very least when intended species are added to the tank the chances of respikeing the amonia levels are greatly reduced thus saveing fishes lives ( there does that make you feel better)
This is not rocket science guys and there is no need to make it that way.
angelsrock
Member
Originally Posted by lion_crazz
I agree with what you said about the first part, but your argument fell apart after that. If you knew that cycling the tank with the damsel stressed him out, then that is wrong. That is what everyone is saying here. It's not fair to the fish to be put through those conditions. There is no way to "do it right without stressing the fish out. Like stated, it burns their gills because there is very little to no oxygen with a high ammonia level. And if you cycle the tank "right", then you will stress the fish out. It's just a process that is easily done with live rock or a .59 cocktail shrimp from the grocery store. Everyone aganst damsels being cycling fish would like to know why they are neccessary. They do not add anything to the water that live rock does not, or cocktail shrimp do not. Also, where have you seen a damsel breeder before? I don't know about you, but I have never seen tank raised damsels for sale like clownfish are. I commend you for keeping the fish around, but still, you put him through three cycling processes. That is wrong on a moral level because you are intentionally hurting the fish for your own indirect pleasure.
what i meant was that i feel the damsels are there to serve a purpose just like feeder fish. damsels are bred just like feeder fish and they can be used as feeder fish as well.i feel that they are there to cycle my tank and if they live through it like mine did they become part of the system. it's just how i feel. i'm not saying this to make their life worth less than a 60 dollar fish, but they are cheaper and hardier than most fish. on a further note i know that you can use a piece of shrimp to cycle a tank but i don't want to have a tank with a shrimp rotting at the bottom. it is for this reason i used a damsel. i must also say that when i have cycled my tanks i only use one damsel with live sand and live rock. i know this sounds crazy but i never recieved an ammonia spike. i did have nitrate and nitrites for about a week before they went down. the last time i cycled a tank though was 2 years ago, but i still have that damsel i used.
I agree with what you said about the first part, but your argument fell apart after that. If you knew that cycling the tank with the damsel stressed him out, then that is wrong. That is what everyone is saying here. It's not fair to the fish to be put through those conditions. There is no way to "do it right without stressing the fish out. Like stated, it burns their gills because there is very little to no oxygen with a high ammonia level. And if you cycle the tank "right", then you will stress the fish out. It's just a process that is easily done with live rock or a .59 cocktail shrimp from the grocery store. Everyone aganst damsels being cycling fish would like to know why they are neccessary. They do not add anything to the water that live rock does not, or cocktail shrimp do not. Also, where have you seen a damsel breeder before? I don't know about you, but I have never seen tank raised damsels for sale like clownfish are. I commend you for keeping the fish around, but still, you put him through three cycling processes. That is wrong on a moral level because you are intentionally hurting the fish for your own indirect pleasure.
what i meant was that i feel the damsels are there to serve a purpose just like feeder fish. damsels are bred just like feeder fish and they can be used as feeder fish as well.i feel that they are there to cycle my tank and if they live through it like mine did they become part of the system. it's just how i feel. i'm not saying this to make their life worth less than a 60 dollar fish, but they are cheaper and hardier than most fish. on a further note i know that you can use a piece of shrimp to cycle a tank but i don't want to have a tank with a shrimp rotting at the bottom. it is for this reason i used a damsel. i must also say that when i have cycled my tanks i only use one damsel with live sand and live rock. i know this sounds crazy but i never recieved an ammonia spike. i did have nitrate and nitrites for about a week before they went down. the last time i cycled a tank though was 2 years ago, but i still have that damsel i used.
monalisa
Active Member
Originally Posted by angelsrock
what i meant was that i feel the damsels are there to serve a purpose just like feeder fish. damsels are bred just like feeder fish and they can be used as feeder fish as well.i feel that they are there to cycle my tank and if they live through it like mine did they become part of the system. it's just how i feel. i'm not saying this to make their life worth less than a 60 dollar fish, but they are cheaper and hardier than most fish. on a further note i know that you can use a piece of shrimp to cycle a tank but i don't want to have a tank with a shrimp rotting at the bottom. it is for this reason i used a damsel.
Why not just use a cocktail shrimp???? Same outcome, same purpose, not having to deal with the after effects of cycling with a LIVE, BREATHING fish!!
Lisa :happyfish
what i meant was that i feel the damsels are there to serve a purpose just like feeder fish. damsels are bred just like feeder fish and they can be used as feeder fish as well.i feel that they are there to cycle my tank and if they live through it like mine did they become part of the system. it's just how i feel. i'm not saying this to make their life worth less than a 60 dollar fish, but they are cheaper and hardier than most fish. on a further note i know that you can use a piece of shrimp to cycle a tank but i don't want to have a tank with a shrimp rotting at the bottom. it is for this reason i used a damsel.
Why not just use a cocktail shrimp???? Same outcome, same purpose, not having to deal with the after effects of cycling with a LIVE, BREATHING fish!!
Lisa :happyfish
ophiura
Active Member
I think it is important to make the distinction that there is a HUGE difference between cycling a tank with LR, LS and a single damsel and what a traditional hard cycle with damselfish is. If you have a single damsel in a tank with cured LR and LS then odds are you will not have a cycle, unless you overstock too quickly. IMO, this is not really quite the same as cycling the tank - but with patience it does work well without an ammonia spike. However the potential to ruin it all exists.
angelsrock
Member
Originally Posted by MonaLisa
Why not just use a cocktail shrimp???? Same outcome, same purpose, not having to deal with the after effects of cycling with a LIVE, BREATHING fish!!
Lisa :happyfish
if you read what i said then you would understand that i feel that they are of the same stature as a feeder fish. not to sound cold or anything but i use them to serve a purpose and i don't want a rotten piece or shrimp in my tank.
Why not just use a cocktail shrimp???? Same outcome, same purpose, not having to deal with the after effects of cycling with a LIVE, BREATHING fish!!
Lisa :happyfish
if you read what i said then you would understand that i feel that they are of the same stature as a feeder fish. not to sound cold or anything but i use them to serve a purpose and i don't want a rotten piece or shrimp in my tank.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Murph
In years gone by it was also often argued that tanks cycled with livestock eventually become much more stable than tanks cycled by other methods....
This is not rocket science guys and there is no need to make it that way.
Those two statements seem to contradict each other...
Ammonia is ammonia. Whether from rotting food, fish waste or live rock it's ammonia. Thinking that one way is more stable than any other is pure bunk.
This really is a pretty black and white issue:
Damsels do experience pain and damage from ammonia.
No one has in their possession a "super" damsel (even if it has survived numerous
cyclings). The damsel will have damage to it's gills from ammonia burns.
Damsels are cheap.
Damsels are easy to purchase.
No laws are in affect to make people treat fish humanely.
People with short attention spans will want something to look at immediately.
A cocktail shrimp is cheaper than a damsel.
A cocktail shrimp does just as good of a job (and I would argue a better job as a rotting shrimp will actually increase it's ammonia production as it decomposes) as a damsel.
New ideas are accepted slowly. Tanks have been cycled with damsels for too long but getting people to change is a slow process.
Now, once again we have the ethical debate about keeping aquariums... and it really doesn't belong on this thread. You can't justify poisoning fish with ammonia by saying "ya, but you keep fish in an aquarium..."
Angelstock, you get the award for the quote of the week: "i don't want a rotten piece or(sic) shrimp in my tank"
So you would rather have fish poop? Oh, and exactly what are you feeding those damsels?
I'll give you a hint.. it probably involves rotting pieces of shrimp. If the size of the rotting shrimp affects your sensitivities so much chop it up first.
Angelstock also said "not to sound cold or anything but i use them to serve a purpose " Well, that sounds cold because it is. You're choosing to harm a fish when their are alternatives. That, by definition, is "cold".
In years gone by it was also often argued that tanks cycled with livestock eventually become much more stable than tanks cycled by other methods....
This is not rocket science guys and there is no need to make it that way.
Those two statements seem to contradict each other...
Ammonia is ammonia. Whether from rotting food, fish waste or live rock it's ammonia. Thinking that one way is more stable than any other is pure bunk.
This really is a pretty black and white issue:
Damsels do experience pain and damage from ammonia.
No one has in their possession a "super" damsel (even if it has survived numerous
cyclings). The damsel will have damage to it's gills from ammonia burns.
Damsels are cheap.
Damsels are easy to purchase.
No laws are in affect to make people treat fish humanely.
People with short attention spans will want something to look at immediately.
A cocktail shrimp is cheaper than a damsel.
A cocktail shrimp does just as good of a job (and I would argue a better job as a rotting shrimp will actually increase it's ammonia production as it decomposes) as a damsel.
New ideas are accepted slowly. Tanks have been cycled with damsels for too long but getting people to change is a slow process.
Now, once again we have the ethical debate about keeping aquariums... and it really doesn't belong on this thread. You can't justify poisoning fish with ammonia by saying "ya, but you keep fish in an aquarium..."
Angelstock, you get the award for the quote of the week: "i don't want a rotten piece or(sic) shrimp in my tank"
So you would rather have fish poop? Oh, and exactly what are you feeding those damsels?
I'll give you a hint.. it probably involves rotting pieces of shrimp. If the size of the rotting shrimp affects your sensitivities so much chop it up first.
Angelstock also said "not to sound cold or anything but i use them to serve a purpose " Well, that sounds cold because it is. You're choosing to harm a fish when their are alternatives. That, by definition, is "cold".
murph
Active Member
From our friends at seachem.
Q: I have another test kit that showed positive for ammonia but the Ammonia Alert™never changed color. Is it still good?
A: Most likely the other test kit was testing for total ammonia. Total ammonia includes both free (NH3) and ionic (NH4+) ammonia. The Ammonia Alert™only measure free ammonia because that is the harmful form. Ionic ammonia cannot harm your fish. However, as pH rises, a greater and greater percentage of the total ammonia will be converted from ionic ammonia to free ammonia, so knowledge of total ammonia is also important.
[hr]
If you are cycling a tank with live stock and concerned that ammonia levels are harming your fish I suggest the use of a ammonia sensor rather than just a chemical test kit. This will tell you if you have harmful levels of free ammonia in your tank. If so take action. Either another cap full of amquel, water change or both.
I also find it interesting that you quoted me out of context journy. The end of the paragraph read. "At the very least when intended species are added to the tank the chances of respikeing the amonia levels are greatly reduced thus saveing fishes lives
Frankly I dont care how anyone cycles there tank but to suggest the use of live stock, when done properly, is somehow tantamont to tourtureing fish is in your words journy "bunk"
and now I am done with this thread as my short "attention span" precludes any further reply
Q: I have another test kit that showed positive for ammonia but the Ammonia Alert™never changed color. Is it still good?
A: Most likely the other test kit was testing for total ammonia. Total ammonia includes both free (NH3) and ionic (NH4+) ammonia. The Ammonia Alert™only measure free ammonia because that is the harmful form. Ionic ammonia cannot harm your fish. However, as pH rises, a greater and greater percentage of the total ammonia will be converted from ionic ammonia to free ammonia, so knowledge of total ammonia is also important.
[hr]
If you are cycling a tank with live stock and concerned that ammonia levels are harming your fish I suggest the use of a ammonia sensor rather than just a chemical test kit. This will tell you if you have harmful levels of free ammonia in your tank. If so take action. Either another cap full of amquel, water change or both.
I also find it interesting that you quoted me out of context journy. The end of the paragraph read. "At the very least when intended species are added to the tank the chances of respikeing the amonia levels are greatly reduced thus saveing fishes lives
Frankly I dont care how anyone cycles there tank but to suggest the use of live stock, when done properly, is somehow tantamont to tourtureing fish is in your words journy "bunk"
and now I am done with this thread as my short "attention span" precludes any further reply
carshark
Active Member
OK murph fair enough, however i still am standing on the ground with both feet on this topic. you are one of a hundred thousand i would presume that knows how to cycle a tank properly with fish so that it is not harmful. let me ask you this. how long have you been keeping salt aquaria? when in general new saltists, and even LFS for that matter, dont know this practice, how can you agree with this? so just because there is a method out there, does that mean everyone knows about it? i think the general point here is unless you are scientist at seachem, chances of you knowing the "proper" way to cycle a tank using fish is slim to none. No where in any readings, or general knowledge is this material available to any beginning hobbyist. so for a rule of thumb the manner in which this cycling process is carried out is just plain mean and cruel to the fish!
oceana
Active Member
this wont be very popular and i will say that i do agree that inthis case since you dont have to there is no reason to cycle with fish.
but with that said gimmie a break. its a fish. to me IMO its like saying walk on your tip toes ffrom now on because your are slaying 1000's or poor tiny ants every day. it's life we are at the top of the food chain.
i know i know. poor fish we pull them from the water and force them to live in glass cages.
and like said above i do agree that there really is no good reason to put the fish in those conditions just to save a day or two. the only part that bugs me is when we start going on About. the poor suffering fish. yet alot of of those same people have no problem munching down a fish sandwhich. let me guess those fish are killed humanly?? sorry but IMO there is no difference.
please keep in mind that i DO AGREE you should not do this. i just dont agree with some of the "PITA" style reasons given for not doing it
but with that said gimmie a break. its a fish. to me IMO its like saying walk on your tip toes ffrom now on because your are slaying 1000's or poor tiny ants every day. it's life we are at the top of the food chain.
i know i know. poor fish we pull them from the water and force them to live in glass cages.
and like said above i do agree that there really is no good reason to put the fish in those conditions just to save a day or two. the only part that bugs me is when we start going on About. the poor suffering fish. yet alot of of those same people have no problem munching down a fish sandwhich. let me guess those fish are killed humanly?? sorry but IMO there is no difference.
please keep in mind that i DO AGREE you should not do this. i just dont agree with some of the "PITA" style reasons given for not doing it
carshark
Active Member
i understand what you are saying maybe its the out of sight out of mind factor for me. but most importantly , i just want new hobbyists to gear towards live rock cycling, for it will be beneficial in the future for them and save them trouble down the road, its not a GOD syndrome its more of a measure to ensure healthy tanks in the future, as opposed to the problems i had to encounter when starting out because of being misinformed, i think if you want to promote healthy futures for tanks and the hobby itself, it starts right there. and maybe im bitter because of the LFS that "helped" me through a new tank set up, and i had to shell out so much more money to get it to where it is now, as opposed to starting out properly in the beginning
murph
Active Member
Actually most of my experience came with the breeding of cichlids from around 1980 to 1991. This also included the installation and servicing of displays tanks at various doctors offices/ upscale business. During that time I lived in Ohio and dabbled in SW FO tanks but back then the availability of sw species and there price was prohibitive.
When moving to FL my first job was the on site servicing of mostly sw tanks. I did not keep my own tanks at this time (burnout).
Here is what would invariably happen when installing a tank at Joe Dentist waiting room. The tank would be set up and non livestock cycling would commence. Despite specific instructions not to add any fish to the tank I would arrive at site to find fish in the tank. Most often the receptionist got tired of answering the question "how come theres no fish in the tank?'" and thought there would be now harm in adding fish or two.
I would then explain that you will soon be answering the question "how come all your fish are dead". This rarely sank in and then I would get the phone call to make a special trip to remove and fix what ever was killing Joe Dentist fish. Of which I did not get paid for.
I finally gave up and started cycling with livestock to avoid this idiotic chain of events. I would say that anyone who has the interest to be visiting this forum probably should cycle without live stock as they are already more informed than the vast majority of casual tank owners. In this day and age of plug and play and instant gratification getting casual tank owners to cycle without fish is virtually impossible so explaining to them how to cycle with livestock without killing the fish is the only alternative and they most often screw that up anyways.
It actually puts me to mind of one Christmas season when I was down at the corner pub. They were having a decorating party and some of them were using staple guns to string up lights that where plugged in and lit up. I looked over to the bouncer and said "maybe you should tell them to at least unplug those lights before they start driving staples through them and it knocks one of them off the ladder there standing on.
The bouncer just looked at me and shook his head and said, "let em learn Murph, let em learn".
When moving to FL my first job was the on site servicing of mostly sw tanks. I did not keep my own tanks at this time (burnout).
Here is what would invariably happen when installing a tank at Joe Dentist waiting room. The tank would be set up and non livestock cycling would commence. Despite specific instructions not to add any fish to the tank I would arrive at site to find fish in the tank. Most often the receptionist got tired of answering the question "how come theres no fish in the tank?'" and thought there would be now harm in adding fish or two.
I would then explain that you will soon be answering the question "how come all your fish are dead". This rarely sank in and then I would get the phone call to make a special trip to remove and fix what ever was killing Joe Dentist fish. Of which I did not get paid for.
I finally gave up and started cycling with livestock to avoid this idiotic chain of events. I would say that anyone who has the interest to be visiting this forum probably should cycle without live stock as they are already more informed than the vast majority of casual tank owners. In this day and age of plug and play and instant gratification getting casual tank owners to cycle without fish is virtually impossible so explaining to them how to cycle with livestock without killing the fish is the only alternative and they most often screw that up anyways.
It actually puts me to mind of one Christmas season when I was down at the corner pub. They were having a decorating party and some of them were using staple guns to string up lights that where plugged in and lit up. I looked over to the bouncer and said "maybe you should tell them to at least unplug those lights before they start driving staples through them and it knocks one of them off the ladder there standing on.
The bouncer just looked at me and shook his head and said, "let em learn Murph, let em learn".
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Murph
It actually puts me to mind of one Christmas season when I was down at the corner pub. They were having a decorating party and some of them were using staple guns to string up lights that where plugged in and lit up. I looked over to the bouncer and said "maybe you should tell them to at least unplug those lights before they start driving staples through them and it knocks one of them off the ladder there standing on.
The bouncer just looked at me and shook his head and said, "let em learn Murph, let em learn".
Sorry Murph. Much of my post was not directed at you.. one of the previous posts talked about customers in LFS's wanting to see something in their tank. That's what the short attention span referred too.
Also, if you feel I took your post out of context I apologize.
I certainly haven't studied the effects of the different states of ammonia, but I concede to your point that by binding free ammonia with Amquel theorectically you could prevent damage to your livestock.
Of course, then we could start arguing over the cost of damsels + Amquel + removal of the little monsters later vs. a cocktail shrimp...
It actually puts me to mind of one Christmas season when I was down at the corner pub. They were having a decorating party and some of them were using staple guns to string up lights that where plugged in and lit up. I looked over to the bouncer and said "maybe you should tell them to at least unplug those lights before they start driving staples through them and it knocks one of them off the ladder there standing on.
The bouncer just looked at me and shook his head and said, "let em learn Murph, let em learn".
Sorry Murph. Much of my post was not directed at you.. one of the previous posts talked about customers in LFS's wanting to see something in their tank. That's what the short attention span referred too.
Also, if you feel I took your post out of context I apologize.
I certainly haven't studied the effects of the different states of ammonia, but I concede to your point that by binding free ammonia with Amquel theorectically you could prevent damage to your livestock.
Of course, then we could start arguing over the cost of damsels + Amquel + removal of the little monsters later vs. a cocktail shrimp...
murph
Active Member
No biggy journy. I am returning to the hobby after an almost ten year absence and am finding I need a refresher course in almost everything anyways. Joining this forum and partaking in the occasional debate is serving to jog my memory wonderfully.
Today I am taking my refresher course in overflow tanks. I swear this use to take me about ten minutes without even thinking about it. Now........ well I started this morning and its now 3 O'Clock :notsure:
Today I am taking my refresher course in overflow tanks. I swear this use to take me about ten minutes without even thinking about it. Now........ well I started this morning and its now 3 O'Clock :notsure:
celacanthr
Active Member
i dont eat fish.
angelsrock
Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Angelstock, you get the award for the quote of the week: "i don't want a rotten piece or(sic) shrimp in my tank"
So you would rather have fish poop? Oh, and exactly what are you feeding those damsels?
I'll give you a hint.. it probably involves rotting pieces of shrimp. If the size of the rotting shrimp affects your sensitivities so much chop it up first.
Angelstock also said "not to sound cold or anything but i use them to serve a purpose " Well, that sounds cold because it is. You're choosing to harm a fish when their are alternatives. That, by definition, is "cold".
first of all it's angelsrock not angelstock. and yeah i don't want a piece of rotten shrimp in my tank because i know that it starts to grow fungus on it and i don't want fungus of any kind in my tanks. you may but i don't. also i don't know what kind of food your feeding your fish but i do not feed my fish rotten pieces of shrimp or food that has rotten shrimp in it. i have flake that has freeze dried shrimp in it, but most foods i use are frozen. not rotten. also if you have a problem with me using damsels to cycle my tank, but no problem with them being used as a feeder then i don't know what to tell ya.
Angelstock, you get the award for the quote of the week: "i don't want a rotten piece or(sic) shrimp in my tank"
So you would rather have fish poop? Oh, and exactly what are you feeding those damsels?
I'll give you a hint.. it probably involves rotting pieces of shrimp. If the size of the rotting shrimp affects your sensitivities so much chop it up first.
Angelstock also said "not to sound cold or anything but i use them to serve a purpose " Well, that sounds cold because it is. You're choosing to harm a fish when their are alternatives. That, by definition, is "cold".
first of all it's angelsrock not angelstock. and yeah i don't want a piece of rotten shrimp in my tank because i know that it starts to grow fungus on it and i don't want fungus of any kind in my tanks. you may but i don't. also i don't know what kind of food your feeding your fish but i do not feed my fish rotten pieces of shrimp or food that has rotten shrimp in it. i have flake that has freeze dried shrimp in it, but most foods i use are frozen. not rotten. also if you have a problem with me using damsels to cycle my tank, but no problem with them being used as a feeder then i don't know what to tell ya.