government ran health care, the results...

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3220678
Oh noes Darth, you share first, tell us what you pay and what you think would be a fair amount to pay every month. I think the 350 dollars or whatever the lastest jump was would be okay to pay if it stayed there for a few years and my large first co-pay was gone and I got what I actually payed for with none of the funny business that goes on when you actually expect them to pay. I would be fine with this just covering basic need to stay healthy stuff, I don't think insurance should be used to cover plastic surgery or gastric by-pass surgery. I also think the use of prescription happy

[hr]
needs to be looked at because of the abuse I currently see. The problem is that even if we overhaul everything, the insurance companies are still going to take every dime they can and gleefully run their corporate death panels to deny coverage at every opportunity just so these CEO's that you conservatives seem to like so much can make an extra 10 million in bonus money. Lack of morality has everything to do with this issue IMHO, I thought you conservative types where supposed to be the ones with values? I guess though I can look forward to when the GOP regains power, they are going to solve all these problems and we can all look forward to good affordable health insurance. LOL

Fishtaco (Still pissy over my insurance increase.)
I pay around 350 a month for family coverage I have. I work a part-time to get this insurance coverage. Everyone knows this. If I compare that to my car insurance which runs about 129 a month and when my kids start driving will be double that I actully think it is on par......atleast the health insurance gets used with check ups and such....I HAVE TO PAY CAR INSURANCE and we have never had an accident in the last 5 years....
so I ask you WHAT EXACTLY is affordable health insurance for a family of say 4?

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3220779
Glad you are really on top of things....
William McGuire is the FORMER CEO of united health group inc. He hasn't worked for them since 2006. His base salary was 2.5 million dollars a year, his bonus was around 5-6 million....he made that much money you are claiming over the course of 15 years through stocks and investments....
Sometimes it pays to pay attention to the lead elephant. You will notice when I gave numbers on what ceos of health companbies get paid I didn't give an opinion about them....Just stated fact....When I do that, I am giving facts and not stating my opinion these are the "non-politically swayed" (i believe that is how you put it) facts...
Your facts are WRONG. Not that it will change your opinion...
Okay I admit I read that article wrong, but now that I have done more reading your figures for Health Insurance CEO's are still laughably low, 10-13 million in total coms seems to be the average. More reading has also lead to me finding out that United Health in the past has paid out 1.8 billion in executive comps.
Fishtaco

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3220782
I pay around 350 a month for family coverage I have. I work a part-time to get this insurance coverage. Everyone knows this. If I compare that to my car insurance which runs about 129 a month and when my kids start driving will be double that I actully think it is on par......atleast the health insurance gets used with check ups and such....I HAVE TO PAY CAR INSURANCE and we have never had an accident in the last 5 years....
so I ask you WHAT EXACTLY is affordable health insurance for a family of say 4?
I have no idea what affordable health insurance is for a family of 4 and good for you that you can get full coverage for your family for that price. But once again, I don't have the option of going on a company plan unless I move and find a job again in the public sector. Comparing car insurance is apples and oranges, you don't have to have a car or car insurance, it is not a life threatening situation. One thing for sure though Darth, with your awesome insurance rate, somebody like myself is making up the difference or you would be looking at something closer to 1200.00 dollars a month and if you where facing that, you would probably be less of an elephant on the issue.
Fishtaco

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3220790
Okay I admit I read that article wrong, but now that I have done more reading your figures for Health Insurance CEO's are still laughably low, 10-13 million in total coms seems to be the average. More reading has also lead to me finding out that United Health in the past has paid out 1.8 billion in executive comps.
Fishtaco

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3220677
No CEO for ANY health insurance company has a base salary above 1.5 million....the rest of the money they make each year come from stock and investments....do some research. Most have a base salary under 500,000 dollars...
Total earnings from the TOP CEO was registered at around 23 million....stop making up figures.
?
Home depot paid out roughly the same amount of money as well in bonuses and comps....
Most major corporations pay that much.
You want to do some research...look into pharmacuetical corps.
Also, compare CEO salaries for the other major industries as well to the health insurance industry.
The ceo for all state insurance made roughly the same as the health insurance ceo you have named....yet I don't EVER hear you guys complaining about your car insurance costs and how MOST of that money never sees any return...atleast you get something in return for your health insurance...far more than you get on you car insurance.

 

[fishtaco]

Are you sure you want to get me started on car insurance? LOL
I also have issues with my required home owners insurance, once a year just like clockwork they call me and try to scare me into buying more or dropping me because I don't have enough coverage. I have a very modest home on a couple of acres and my appraised value is about half the home and the rest is the property. Every year I have to ask them if they are going to insure my pasture because my home is very well insured. This is nothing but an attempt by the insurance companies to catch people sleeping panic them into paying more. IMHO that annual phone call should come with a heavy fine and maybe even some jail time, because that's how we treat con artists unless of course they wear a tie to work.
My only accident was when I was hit from behind and forced into another car in front of me. My car was perfect and had less than 20,000 miles on it. They totalled it and offered me 1900.00 dollars because my car was only in average shape, when asked what brought my car down in value so much, they said the appraiser knocked off a bunch of value because he could see wear on the tires. I ended up getting an attorney and getting my car fixed and it is parked in the garage right now.
So no, I don't have a good word to say about insurance of any kind.
Fishtaco(Still pissy because of my rate hike)

 

[reefraff]

I think the ultimate solution is to dump insurance as we know it and go to a pay as you go system for routine office visits with insurance kicking in for operations and the more involved testing and such. Of course people with kids would hate it because they would have to start paying their fair share of the pot.
Slipping into flame proof suit.

 

[reefraff]

I think part of the reason for the health care companies stock rising when it looked like this was going to pass was the provision that everyone had to have insurance. The 20 something crowd that tends to never go to the doc unless an appendage is hanging by a thread are a gold mine for the insurance companies. Of course forget about the fact we are forcing healthy people to purchase a service they may not need and don't want.

 

[sickboy]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3220861
I think the ultimate solution is to dump insurance as we know it and go to a pay as you go system for routine office visits with insurance kicking in for operations and the more involved testing and such. Of course people with kids would hate it because they would have to start paying their fair share of the pot.
Slipping into flame proof suit.

Actually, this may actually work in areas with many providers, it could spark some monopolistic competition.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3220782
I pay around 350 a month for family coverage I have. I work a part-time to get this insurance coverage. Everyone knows this. If I compare that to my car insurance which runs about 129 a month and when my kids start driving will be double that I actully think it is on par......atleast the health insurance gets used with check ups and such....I HAVE TO PAY CAR INSURANCE and we have never had an accident in the last 5 years....
so I ask you WHAT EXACTLY is affordable health insurance for a family of say 4?
Darth, you seem to have a disconnect with how important health insurance can be to an individual, or even a family. You can't compare it to auto insurance because your car, your home, is just an inantimate object that can be replaced. A family member is irreplaceable. Without proper healthcare, you may not be prepared mentally or financially when you or a family member has a medical emergency.
What's affordable? There's a lot of variables involved when choosing what's best for you or your family. There's the income factor. For me, I have no problem paying $300/month for insurance for my family because that's something that doesn't impact my budget, as opposed to someone who only makes $25K - $50K per year. Then there's the out-of-pocket maxes and individual and family deductibles. I've seen a dramatic increase in these alone in the last 5 years in my personal health insurance. Five years ago, for my family of four, my out-of-pocket max was $1500 per individual and $3000 for the family. Individual and family deductibles were $500 and $1000 respectively. I paid $150/month for this coverage. My wife now pays $325/month for our plan where the out-of -pocket max is $4000 per individual and $8000 family. Deductibles are $1000 per individual and $3000 family. Five years ago when anyone in my family hit their deductible, the insurance paid 90%, I paid 10% until I reached either the individual or family OOP max. Now that's 80/20. So even if when I recently had what I call are minor emergencies (daughter number one had a bowel obstruction due to severe constipation, daughter two got a hairline fracture on her foot) the final cost to me is twice as much as it used to be.
Then of course you also have to deal with what the insurance companies consider 'reasonable charges'. Two years ago my wife had severe abdominal pains and ended up going to the hospital. It ended up being a benign tumor on her uterus that was the size of a basketball. She ended up with a full hysterectomy and recovered fully. The hospital bill with all the doctors, meds, surgery, and hospital stay was right at 86 Grand. At that time, I think our deductible/out-of-pockets were $1500/$6500. So I thought, "OK, I'm out $6,500 for saving my wife's life. I think that's a REAL bargain." Wroong. I get the bill from the hospital, and they want me to pay somewhere around $23,000. I called them and said "Excuse me? My insurance says my out of pocket max is $6,500. What makes you think I owe you an extra $16,500?" "Well, the extra amount is for charges for services and other medical fees that you insurance company stated they are not responsible for because they were consider 'unnecessary expenses' for the care and treatment of your wife." So I got a copy of this 20 page bill, and my wife and I went line by line on all charges. My wife being an ICU Nurse who WORKS FOR THE SAME HOSPITAL SHE WAS TREATED IN, found at least FIVE PAGES of bogus or incorrect charges. When she went to Post-Op, her boss put her in their ICU unit (she didn't need to be there, but that's just one of the perks for working in a hospital). So she knew exactly how many 'drips' they used, how many bandages, how much ointment, what meds she was administered and how many of each - every aspect of her stay from her admittance to her exit. They charged us for stuff she had records from her unit to prove they were never used on her. They even wanted to deny some of the drugs the Anethesiologist used DURING SURGERY because they said there were cheaper alternatives. Riiight. Let me go stand in the OR and tell the doc, "Do you really need to use that? That might not be covered under my insurance policy."

When my wife and I went to talk to the 'finance people' at the hospital about the discrepancies, as soon as she plopped her ID badge down with the first couple of pages of errors she found, the lady there said, "Upon further review, we feel you're only payment to us is your $6,500 out of pocket max. Would you like us to do payroll deductions for that?" I wrote them a check and walked out the door.

 

[reefraff]

Maybe if people knew the actual costs of medical care and were required to pay it out of pocket instead of just laying it on an insurance co. they (Include myself here) would lead healthier lives.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3220948
Maybe if people knew the actual costs of medical care and were required to pay it out of pocket instead of just laying it on an insurance co. they (Include myself here) would lead healthier lives.
You could lead the healthiest life known to man, and you could still have a major medical problem. Got a family history of heart disease, cancer? Even eating right, exercising, and doing everything possible is no guarantee you can avoid major health issues. I try to do those things, but my cholesterol is still pegging the high side. Why? Genetics. So I have to take meds to keep it down. Ever had an accident? Fall off a ladder, get into a major auto accident, slip and fall on ice, pick one. Unless you live some reclusive and sheltered life, there's no guarantee you'll never need expensive medical care.
Not to mention, unless you've found The Fountain Of Youth, sooner or later medical problems catch up with you. When you start hitting 60, 'the plumbing' doesn't work as well as it did when you were 20. Some parts start wearing out (joints, hearts, lungs, etc.) depending on how you lived the earlier parts of your life.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3220951
You could lead the healthiest life known to man, and you could still have a major medical problem. Got a family history of heart disease, cancer? Even eating right, exercising, and doing everything possible is no guarantee you can avoid major health issues. I try to do those things, but my cholesterol is still pegging the high side. Why? Genetics. So I have to take meds to keep it down. Ever had an accident? Fall off a ladder, get into a major auto accident, slip and fall on ice, pick one. Unless you live some reclusive and sheltered life, there's no guarantee you'll never need expensive medical care.
No but then again if insurance only picked up the large ticket items like surgery and such and we had to pick up the nickle and dime stuff (figuratively speaking) you never know.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3220937
Darth, you seem to have a disconnect with how important health insurance can be to an individual, or even a family. You can't compare it to auto insurance because your car, your home, is just an inantimate object that can be replaced. A family member is irreplaceable. Without proper healthcare, you may not be prepared mentally or financially when you or a family member has a medical emergency.
It is late so i will keep this brief.
True to an extent. without home insurance, if your house burns down or gets hit by a tornado etc... you are still responsiblefor the

[hr]
...I dont know many people that can afford another house payment while paying for a hame they no longer have. do you? Same thing with a car if it is totalled...and godforbid you actually seriously harm someone....
Both cases are equivilant to the out of pocket costs most average people would see for health insurance...This is all i am saying. everyone keeps talking cost...i am just pointing out there isnt much difference between other insurance costs.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3220800
One thing for sure though Darth, with your awesome insurance rate, somebody like myself is making up the difference or you would be looking at something closer to 1200.00 dollars a month and if you where facing that, you would probably be less of an elephant on the issue.
Fishtaco

Enhhhhhhhhhhhhh,,,,wrong again.
The company i work for picks up 70 percent of the cost as one of my benefits...not bad for part-time...this was why i CHOSE to work part-time. so you ARE NOT picking up the extra cost....nice try though. I was facing that...and still was an elephant then. But I took care of matters myself.

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3220820
Are you sure you want to get me started on car insurance? LOL
I also have issues with my required home owners insurance, once a year just like clockwork they call me and try to scare me into buying more or dropping me because I don't have enough coverage. I have a very modest home on a couple of acres and my appraised value is about half the home and the rest is the property. Every year I have to ask them if they are going to insure my pasture because my home is very well insured. This is nothing but an attempt by the insurance companies to catch people sleeping panic them into paying more. IMHO that annual phone call should come with a heavy fine and maybe even some jail time, because that's how we treat con artists unless of course they wear a tie to work.
My only accident was when I was hit from behind and forced into another car in front of me. My car was perfect and had less than 20,000 miles on it. They totalled it and offered me 1900.00 dollars because my car was only in average shape, when asked what brought my car down in value so much, they said the appraiser knocked off a bunch of value because he could see wear on the tires. I ended up getting an attorney and getting my car fixed and it is parked in the garage right now.
So no, I don't have a good word to say about insurance of any kind.
Fishtaco(Still pissy because of my rate hike)
Sounds like you got hosed going with a no-name auto insurance.
I've had one vehicle totaled and my brother had one total (we're under the same plan). Both times, we received over market-value for our cars. And that was after I ripped out my stereo-stuff, rims, etc, and threw in the cheapest $19 wal-mart radio and 15" wheels from the junkyard.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3220861
I think the ultimate solution is to dump insurance as we know it and go to a pay as you go system for routine office visits with insurance kicking in for operations and the more involved testing and such. Of course people with kids would hate it because they would have to start paying their fair share of the pot.
Slipping into flame proof suit.

My Dad has a sweetheart of a plan. Literally everything is on there. Contact lens are partially covered

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3220948
Maybe if people knew the actual costs of medical care and were required to pay it out of pocket instead of just laying it on an insurance co. they (Include myself here) would lead healthier lives.
And maybe, just maybe, if people knew the actual cost of food and were required to pay it out of pocket instead of just laying corporate expenses on the back of the taxpayer, we'd eat more healthily and avoid the costs of reparative health care in the first place. Do you seriously think a McDonald's hamburger only costs what you pay at the register for it?
I find it hilarious that people who are so opposed to Socialism have no understanding of how Socialist corporate tax breaks are. It's somehow bad if an individual receives government funding, and good if corporations do.
It's a zero sum equation. If someone gets something from the gov't, someone else makes up the difference. Whether that someone receiving the break is a Corporation or an Individual, the someone making up the difference is an individual taxpayer.
Corporations don't pay taxes. Their clients do.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3221024
It is late so i will keep this brief.
True to an extent. without home insurance, if your house burns down or gets hit by a tornado etc... you are still responsiblefor the

[hr]
...I dont know many people that can afford another house payment while paying for a hame they no longer have. do you? Same thing with a car if it is totalled...and godforbid you actually seriously harm someone....
Both cases are equivilant to the out of pocket costs most average people would see for health insurance...This is all i am saying. everyone keeps talking cost...i am just pointing out there isnt much difference between other insurance costs.
How many m0rtg@ge lenders out there do you know that would provide a home loan without insurance? Home insurance is an expected expense when purchasing a home. Most people throw that into escrow and don't even know it's there. I've lived in the same house now for 17 years. My home insurance hasn't gone up by more than 15% during that timeframe. I'd be happy if my Health insurance premiums followed the same scale.
Pretty much every state requires a minimum of some Liability coverage in order for you to register or drive that vehicle in the respective state. How much you spend on that insurance depends on various factors - age of driver, $ex of driver, number of years driving, type of automobile you drive, how many accidents or tickets you've received. The only time my auto insurance has gone up is when I purchased a new vehicle. My oldest daughter just started driving, and we bought her a new Nissan Versa. My insurance rates went up $70/month. Again, the increase in my auto insurance rates have been minimal compared to my health insurance premiums. I went four years once not changing a thing in my auto policy, and my rates actually went DOWN instead of up. When's the last time you saw health insurance costs and premiums go down?

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3221079
How many m0rtg@ge lenders out there do you know that would provide a home loan without insurance? Home insurance is an expected expense when purchasing a home. Most people throw that into escrow and don't even know it's there. I've lived in the same house now for 17 years. My home insurance hasn't gone up by more than 15% during that timeframe. I'd be happy if my Health insurance premiums followed the same scale.
Pretty much every state requires a minimum of some Liability coverage in order for you to register or drive that vehicle in the respective state. How much you spend on that insurance depends on various factors - age of driver, $ex of driver, number of years driving, type of automobile you drive, how many accidents or tickets you've received. The only time my auto insurance has gone up is when I purchased a new vehicle. My oldest daughter just started driving, and we bought her a new Nissan Versa. My insurance rates went up $70/month. Again, the increase in my auto insurance rates have been minimal compared to my health insurance premiums. I went four years once not changing a thing in my auto policy, and my rates actually went DOWN instead of up. When's the last time you saw health insurance costs and premiums go down?
I'm also of the opinion that these cost are climbing beyond what is reasonable. But before you point the finger only at the insurance companies you should also review the cost of providing the health care.
In your two examples, Mortage and Auto insurance, at what rate have the underlying costs increased? If the cost of repairing your car increased 15% per year would you expect your collision insurance to increase more than it has?
I'm not saying there is no room for improvement in medical insurance, but much of the increase in premiums is from increases in medical costs.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3221087
I'm also of the opinion that these cost are climbing beyond what is reasonable. But before you point the finger only at the insurance companies you should also review the cost of providing the health care.
In your two examples, Mortage and Auto insurance, at what rate have the underlying costs increased? If the cost of repairing your car increased 15% per year would you expect your collision insurance to increase more than it has?
I'm not saying there is no room for improvement in medical insurance, but much of the increase in premiums is from increases in medical costs.
I can agree with this statement to a point, but the increase in premuims doesn't seem to follow the same scale as those of healthcare costs. Like I said, my wife is an ICU Nurse, and she knows what items are used on a daily basis. I don't see the cost to produce an aspirin, morphine, or a bag of saline to rise that much from year to year. My wife can attest her salary hasn't gone up 40% over the last 5 years. That MRI machine may have cost the hospital a couple million to buy, but they write most of the cost of that off with depreciation tax reductions. Not to mention, the unit probably pays for itself in a couple of years. Maintenance for those devices are high, but not astronomical. My wife told me her hospital charges $750/night to stay in a semi-private room. She said just a few year's back, that same rate was around $500/night. The room hasn't changed any in those couple of years - same bed, same TV, same bedside equipment. Yet the cost to stay in that room has gone up by $250/night.

 

[bang guy]

I would expect that a 50% increase in hospital room rates would result in a significant increase in medical insurance rates. One of many increased hospital costs. Just an example.