Gun Control

dennycrane

Member
You are FAR more likely to be a victim of crime in England. That is true. Very true, in my experience. But crime in general is irrelevant to this issue. We are talking about guns. Muggings and robbery are done by knifepoint and simple battery. Your next argument: "So why not ban knives?" Because it is a much greater emotional investment to plunge a knife into somebody until they are dead than it does to pull a trigger. The simple truth when comparing US to England is that they have a successfully low death by gun rate and that is simply because there are less guns (even when there is more crime as you fittingly poited out).
Socal: Those are some cool guns. I am curious, and really I don't know the answer, what happens to those guns once you pass on? Do they go through your estate to an heir, and if so, what tests, forms or procedures does that heir have to complete before gaining ownership?
 

aw2

Active Member
I started reading this thread before I left for work today, but didnt get the chance to finish it.
I am ex-military (Special Forces/Navy to be precise), I have extensive weapons training in just about every modern handgun, rifle, shotgun, sub machine gun and machine gun that you could throw at me. I am also a very avid gun collector, firing range visitor and hunter.
Now, considering all of that, my opinion is that no one (emphasis on NO ONE) should be allowed to a weapon that is fully automatic. Even talking about owning an automatic firearm should make the talker cringe and cower, with the threat of imprisonment, if they go about their idea and find a full auto weapon. This particular type of weapon was not made to hunt with, protect yourself with, or use for recreational purposes...it was meant to kill people, plain and simple...end of story.
The manufacturers that make the conversion kit (you can convert some types of semi auto rifles to fire full auto) should be forced to either stop selling these conversion kits, or go out of business...it's their choice.
Law enforcement does not need these converstion kits...weapons, in police deptments, in cities such as L.A., Miami, Chicago, etc. are bought directly from the firearm manufacturer, with full auto capabilities. There is no reason, what-so-ever, for ANY company to be selling full auto conversion kits to ANYONE. They shouldnt exsist, period.
I can understand the "I just enjoy to shoot them" angle, because I am one of those people that enjoy it. But, I dont enjoy shooting full auto any more than I do semi auto, or rifles or handguns. As fast as you can pull that trigger is how many rounds of ammunition you're going to expel. What's the fun in wasting 30+ rounds of ammunition in 3 seconds, cause you think it's cool to shoot a full auto weapon?? That baffles me. There was a time when I'd go through 1000+ rounds of ammunition, in all calibers (9mm, .40cal, .45cal, .223), every week...it's expensive!
Guns dont kill people...people kill people and that's the plain, simple truth. The media makes firearms out to be a horrible thing. Think of the last gun story you heard on the news...it was either a gang shooting, or a 5 yr. old finding his IDIOTIC fathers handgun and shooting his little sister with it. In my opinion, that father should go to jail for the death of that child. But instead, it's no ones fault, cause it was only a kid that found the gun and then it immediately launches into..."Well, this wouldnt have happened if we had stronger gun laws". No, it wouldnt have happened if the father had half a brain and followed simple gun safety by not having a loaded gun in the house. And, it's difficult for me to believe the "Well, I keep the gun loaded in case someone breaks in" theory...it takes someone all of about a second and a half to pick up a magazine and insert it into a handgun.
The media plays on this fear of firearms and what has it gotten us??...rediculous gun laws, that are getting worse and worse every day. This country was founded on our right to bear arms...whether it be an old musket or my .223 M4, with a 30 round magazine.
I just took a job at a security guard/security supervisor for a new company in my area. They're not well liked, for unjustified reasons, in this area and me and the guys I work with are required to have firearms training. My first day on the job, they issued me a .38 revolver...6 whole rounds. Now, with the world like it is today, where 13 yr old gang bangers are shooting up neighborhoods with Ak-47's, who wants to work at a job where the possibility of a gun fight? You want to pull out that old 6 shooter and face off with a guy with an Ak-47?...no thanks, I put the .38 in the desk drawer and carry my HK USP .40...13 rounds of stopping power is better to me than an old 6 shooter.
To wrap this up, I'll say what myself and countless generations before me have always said...
The government can take away my guns when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers.
 

phixer

Active Member
When custody or ownership of a firearm is transferred the firearm must be re-registered to the new owner. This is done by a third party licensed by the ATF to conduct firearms transactions. In NV and CA there is a waiting period and an additional backround check performed on the new owner and the weapon to verify that during the life of that firearm it was not used in a crime.
Violent crime is directly linked to the issue of gun laws, this has been proven many times. Crime is considerably reduced when the criminals know they could be shot. This is why Police carry guns. Why guards carry guns, why the military carries guns. Guns are very successful at detering crime. The statistics support this.
How can there be a greater emotional investment if using a knife to commit a violent crime when the act of using a knife is far simpler. To use a gun one must.
load the gun
---- the gun
release the safety
aim the gun
squeeze the trigger.
at least 5 steps. A knife maybe one step, unless its a lock back

There is a much longer thought process and emotional investment involved if using a gun. One of the reasons for a waiting period when purchasing one.
Regarding the issue of gun crimes in England. There is overwhelming statistical evidence disproving your arguement. Not worth repeating, the numbers state otherwise.
I used to have a 92F, hated that thing. Looking at a SIG now.
 

socal57che

Active Member
AW2,
as far as conversion kits there is not a single conversion kit that is legal to sell or own (unless it is registered, $$$$). If I posess a single part of the action/trigger group for an m-16 I can go to jail for possessing a machine gun. The auto sear I think you've heard of for the AR15 must be registered as a macine gun regardless of it's installation...If you own one you own a machine gun. Word is, the ads in Shotgun News are listed by the ATF to catch people trying to convert guns illegally. The parts kits you refer to (like for an AK47) are to repair existing machine guns. Many places selling them freely have stopped or have been shut down. These places are looked down upon by the class 3 community. I enjoy shooting full auto. I do not own an automatic, but used to shoot a friends M16. Ammunition is cheap compared to 1957 Chevy trim parts so I don't feel too bad shooting up $75 a weekend every now and then.
And Colt lost the lawsuit...now anybody can use the M4 designation. Mine is a Bushy XM15-E2 flattop with the CAR stock. I also own a Rock River forged lower I'm going to build into a race gun. See photo.
Denny Crane,
If the person being tied up and raped has no gun they cannot shoot and kill the attacker, therefore lowering the number of killings by firearm.
The person acquiring the firearms must meet the same criteria I did. As an FFL holder my info is on file with the ATF.
zoie2,
did you know in los angeles county it is unlawful to possess a rifle that fires .50 cal.
How many McDonalds have been robbed with a .50 cal. anyway? :notsure:
 

1journeyman

Active Member
So why do you all think violence is as great as it is in the U.S.?
I'm genuinely perplexed by this. Why does the USA suffer from gang violence the way we do? Violent crimes?
I've traveled a bit and in both Australia, England, Central Europe, Caribbean etc. the environment seemed safer than large cities here.
:notsure: I don't know why... I'm not for gun control at all, but I am for reducing crime... if easy access to firearms isn't the problem then what is?
 

socal57che

Active Member
America has a fixation with removing God from every aspect of our lives and it shows in the morality of each succeeding generation. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 

aw2

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I've traveled a bit and in both Australia, England, Central Europe, Caribbean etc. the environment seemed safer than large cities here.
Another thing to consider is that you just "traveled" to those places. You probably werent there long enough too see any crime aspect of the city or cities.
 

oaktree

Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
America has a fixation with removing God from every aspect of our lives and it shows in the morality of each succeeding generation. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
I don't agree here my house will not serve any (Lord) but I believe I live a great life and I have lots of morals and do expect my children to grow up with respect for everybody no matter color or religon jmo I personally am not religous but I agree with every else you've said
 

rschultz

Member
Originally Posted by Oaktree
I don't agree here my house will not serve any (Lord) but I believe I live a great life and I have lots of morals and do expect my children to grow up with respect for everybody no matter color or religon jmo I personally am not religous but I agree with every else you've said

You are either with us, or against us.
 

37g joe

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
So why do you all think violence is as great as it is in the U.S.?
becaus pumnishment is so minimal. you can kill someone plead insanity and be out in ten years and do it again. but if you throw a peice of gum out your car window you can get upto a 25,000 dollar fine. the system is all messed up.
 

chipmaker

Active Member
A .50 cal is a far cry from a howitzer ;-)
I support the use and ownership of any weapon. I had a class III FFL and at one time did own 2 fully automatic weapons which I enjoyed the heck out of, but it was costly not only in terms of taxes and permits for them every year, but in ammo consumed. Personally though I would take a semi or a good bolt actin over a full auto anyday. My wife and I both have concealed carry permits, and both carry 24/7 whever we leave our property. The wife has on one occassion had the need to pull her weapon on a dude, and held him at gunpoint until the cops aririved and removed him from her car, that he got into wanting money and a ride...Turned out the dude had quite a few outstanding warrants as well...
So my view is if yu can get it legally, and posses necessary paperwork you shoul d be entitled to own any firearm made......I do not see anything wrong with owning a tank or a field howitzer either. Lots of folks have this stuff and are avid collectors of military equipment. Ammo for them is not available and what you see them do is loading their own ammo, which consists mainly of blanks, just for realistic effects, not so much as to do destruction.
I also belive if a weapon is used in any crime it should be mandatory in all states that a severe punishment be dealt to the offender if found guilty......even to the point that if a gun was used in a robbery, there was an intent to kill, so therfore that inndividual needs to be in prison for life, so why give them a second chance to acquire yet another weapon and this time pull the trigger. There are just too many scum bags out there armed and looking for trouble and all without any permits. I just don't intend to be one of their victims if I can help it.
 

reefnut

Active Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
As do me and mine...
I'm a gun owner and believe we all have the right to own whatever gun we want. I have no automatic weapons nor do I want any but the problem does not lie with the permitted owners of these guns... the problem is with the illegal ownership.
 

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
America has a fixation with removing God from every aspect of our lives and it shows in the morality of each succeeding generation. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Oh yeah, we all know that godless heathens are 10 times more likely to commit acts of violence due to their lack of values and their disdain for their fellow man…
 

whitebird

Member
well to start off with
America was built on people killing people and it was carried over from England where they took what they wanted by force
times hasn't changed much right?
like my Mom use to say when they was growing up they never heard of the violance there is now but like i said to her the only thing that realy changed is that we can pick up a news paper or turn on the tv or radio, computer and see in a instant whats going on in the world it wasn't that way in the 20s 30s and 40s so people havn't changed right
as for guns well i have been raised with them my kids have grown up with them and as i was taught to shhot befoe i could even hold one up to shoot so has our kids they learned to respect them and was never told that guns were bad and to stay away from them like most are told now
our state you can own most any thing with the right permitts
in 1976 my younger brother was killed in our home shot 14 times did this turn us away from guns no it showed us how the court system is so screwd up the guy was out in 3 years
and that is why you see more kids killing kids most know that they wil get a slap and sent home or out on the streets in a few years to do it again
and untill people that use guns to kill others are punished the right way and guns are not the blame then things will never change
i see most of you talk about what kind of guns people should and shouldn't own well what do you wantr a car that will go past the speed limits to break the law to so lets ban any and all that will go over the posted speed limit
cars are used to kill people to so what not ban and with a HP rating over 100hp?
 

xcgx

Member
A reasonable and prudent person should be able to own an "assault weapon" which is nothing more than cosmetics. The assault weapon ban for the most part banned the following: a collabsable stock (barrel still had to be at least 16 inches), high capacity magazines, bayonet lut, and a flash suppressor). Most police do say they want these type of weapons of the street, but they would also say they would like to see ALL weapons off the street except for theirs. I should know because I'm in that field of work, but the media just doesn't spin it that way. People don't hunt with fully automatic weapons. The guns with the registered sears are in the thousands, they are to inacurate in fully automatic mode to hunt, among other reasons. Military and police and CRIMINALS shouldn't be the only persons who own rifles capable of providing reliable self defense. If a criminal engages you with a semi automatic weapon that he stole or bought off the black market and you have a single shot hunting rifle, you're done. Plus a hunting rifle round would go through him, the wall, your neighbors wall, if not into you neighbor and his fish tank. The media makes this issue what it is. There are more guns in your neighborhood than you will ever know...and that's a good thing because that goes to show not everyone who ownes a gun is dangerous, a criminal, or a terrorist. Just lock them up, educate your family on safety issues, and don't forget about training. People fight for fully automatic weapons so that they can settle for semiautomatic weapons. If they faught for semi auto weapons, then they would get revolvers and black powder rifles. If you have ever baught a weapon, then you know that there are a list questions that you have to answer and be in compliance with. If you lie, then you are breaking the law, which makes you a criminal and remember criminals will always, always, have guns and so should we if we choose to do so...not for hunting, but for the reason that they were made, not to "assault" (which is just a verb used to describe an action, not an object incapable of assaulting anyone on it's own) but for self defense. If I ran you over with my Jeep, would that be considered and ATV "Assault Type Vehicle?" There are bigger issues that we need to concern ourselves with than guns...how about the CRIMINALS who continue to use them and our court system.
 

dennycrane

Member
Phixer and Socal - Those were some...inventive counter arguments. Less gun death in those countries because victims aren't armed? With all due respect (and I honestly do respect your opinion) I think that's a little comical. As for the emotional investment of killing with a knife as opposed to the investments needed to go through your steps, endless psychological studies support me here, as does common sense. I'll quickly give you the headnotes - You have to look at what a person need to physically go through in the "heat" of the crime. To get into someone's personal space where you smell feel and hear everything and plunge a knife into them (usually repeatedly) to kill them requires a considerable amount of consideration and cost / benefit analysis by the brain - there left is little regret for what has been done and in contrast the person usually feels a sense of accomplishment. All you need to do in the heat of a gun kill is point and shoot (prepping the gun -loading and cocking - is done away from the heat of the moment). Actually little emotional investment is needed and intense regret is often felt by the person firing the weapon (of course there are exceptions).
Since I am talking about gun crime related death as opposed to other gun related death (maybe that only leaves accidental), I can speak to my opinions of our "system" since it has been brought up. IMO, punishment in the United States carries some of the most severe penalties in the western world. The US to traveling foreigners seems a very scary place to get in trouble. We carry the death penalty in several states; the three strike rule is in effect in most states (which can be very harsh considering what qualifies as a felony); the felony murder rule, which states if any person dies in the commission of a felony crime, first degree murder penalty will apply (even if that person dies from heart attack or if the person who dies is the accomplice). FYI, the insanity plea is nearly impossible to get in any instance of gun murder - the standard of proof is very complicated. You've no doubt constructed your insanity plea opinions from media and tv, which covers the most extaordinary of cases, but you'll notice nobody ever gets it. Punshment in our legal system has never proven to be a deterrent to crime. The ego of someone who commits criminal activity, make it impossible to believe that they can get caught, therefor consequence never plays a part in the process. Commission of a crime, BTW, does carry a far heavier sentance if a weapon is used (its a modifier that makes ADAs drool and usually carries mandatory jail time).
I agree with a lot of all of your pro-gun idividual points. You are acting within the law and enjoying your hobby. I don't know any of you, but I would be willing to bet that somewhere, somebody taught you respect for firearms. Gun restrictions are ultimately unfair to people like you...to me there's no doubt. But like several of you pointed out there is a problem with crime in the US due to who knows how many factors - some said parents which I agree with. The problem is, laws have to take in account the whole and even though there are civilized people like yourselves, we a greatly outnumbered by the "others". And for that laws must account for them. At this point, the United States is at a point of no return with regards to gun laws. Gun lobbiests are too powerful, and there are just too many guns out there to try and round up every weapon - it would be unrealistic and unfair.
What I don't see a problem doing is slowing and then evendually ending selling of weaponry that doesn't qualify as a single action sport firearm. Guns don't last forever and eventually the problem guns will be out of date and useless (I mean when was the last time you saw someone packing a tommy gun?).
Look, I'm a hunter and gun owner, but you can't convince me that guns aren't a problem in the US, and that restricting the availability wouldn't help. I know you have "stats" that prove that gun laws are directly related to increase in gun crime, but that is rediculous. You are looking for something to justify your argument - and it doesn't add up there. Stick with the "its my right" argument - that I can buy and understand. One of my closest friends is a lobbiest in DC and he can tell you stories of the "stats" they get for some of their issues. It would be funny if it didn't make you want to cry. So don't be so quick to grab these little factoids from websites unless you know where it came from.
 
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