Having some trouble with my Nitrates

[fishymomma]

I have a 30 gallon fish tank that is hosting 2 percula clownfish, 1 cleaner shrimp, 1 peppermint shrimp,
3 or 4 turbo snails, a bunch of other snails, 1 lawn mower blenny & 1 sand sifting star fish.
We have 4 live rock & live sand that is really crushed sea shells (No crustaceans).
We have a bunch of bristle worms as well.
Before we went out and purchased the cleaner shrimp, we had one die on us, We weren't sure if it
was because our Nitrates were at 20 or because we were putting in (purple up) everyday.
We came to the conclusion that the purple up was what had killed him. On the bottle it says
to do it daily but apparently they cannot handle that. A week and a half of using the purple up
in the tank daily, He died. We did a water change because our nitrates were way to high but
within a day or a night, it was back to what it was before.
We did another water change and decided it would be ok to go and get another one since he
stayed a live and was healthy even though my nitrates were high, It was the purple up that killed
him off. Well, we went and got him yesterday and he is doing wonderful, it's my sand sifting star
fish that I am worried about, But before I get into full detail about him, I want to clarify some things.
When my husband removed our filter there was a lot of gunk on it and dead bristle worms.
We left the tank without a filter for a couple of days and when we did another water change
last night, we put in a new filter. I cleaned out the protein skimmer we have in there and checked
the reading of the Nitrates today and it read (10ppm Nitrates). Not as bad, but still way to high.
When we put the star fish in, she immediately went to the sand and buried herself,
When we woke up this morning, she was found on the side wall of our tank.
Since she is known for her sifting characteristics, is it okay for her to be attached to
the wall for a long period of time. She has been on the wall for several hours now,
I'd say over 6 or 8 and she hasn't moved a muscle. I don't know weather to call her
"still alive" or "dead?" I don't know if our sand (which is really crushed shells) is a good
source of food for her?
Other then the fact that we are doing a lot of water changes, I have no idea what I am doing
that may be causing the Nitrates to stay very high? I want to see a reading of at least 0 or 5ppm.
But I can't seem to get any lower then 10. I am not really overfeeding them as far as I know.
So I am torn and lost as to what to do? I don't wanna loose another shrimp & star fish now.
Please help!!! Thank you!

 

[fishymomma]

I also want to mention that we have had this tank up and running and fully cycled for almost 3 months now.
So there should be plenty of stuff in the sand for her, It's just the question of why she is on the wall and will
not move from there and the worry of the Nitrates.

 

[smartorl]

First, how old is this tank?

 

[fishymomma]

I already mentioned above your comment that it has been up and running for almost 3 months now.
It is fully cycled. Just the Nitrates that wont go down.

 

[smartorl]

Ok, here are my thoughts.
At three months this a relatively new system. Do you know how many pounds of live rock you have? My thoughts are that your biological filtration is not able to keep up with your bioload.
If your substrate is in fact crushed coral, this is not a hospitable environment for sand sifters, think of it as similar to sifting broken glass.
Also, in a system that small, not to mention new, a sandsifting star is going to starve quickly.
I would return it to the store.
As for the nitrates, that would likely be the cause of the invert deaths. Water changes are in order until you can get a handle on things in my opinion. I would boost with mechanical filtration and definitely have a powerhead near the surface keeping the surface churning to ensure a good oxygen exchange.
Others can chime in but I think Purple up is calcium, I don't use it because I am one of those who doesn't add anything to my tank unless it is absolutely neccessary.

 

[bang guy]

Crushed coral (or shells) has too many sharp edges for sand sifting starfish. If it's an older tank the substrate would have had time to dissolve the rough edges but for a young tank there are just too many sharps for the starfish to safely feed.
The excess of Bristle Worms is telling me that you have been overfeeding. This is the primary cause for excess Nitrates. 10ppm isn't terrible but it can easily be lower if you start feeding less. I understand you don't think you are overfeeding but this is the most common cause.
Second is WHAT you're feeding. Flaked food really shouldn't be used in saltwater aquariums at all. A lot of the nutrients will dissolve in the water almost instantly so add to Nitrate levels without ever even being eaten by anything. Also be careful of the cheaper brands of frozen food. Check to see that they are not preserved with Nitrates. You best bet is to either use a premium brand of food that advertizes what's actually in the food or just make your own food.

 

[smartorl]

If you look at the post date, time, we posted at the same time.
Please tell us a little more, the nitrates, never went down at all?

 

[smartorl]

Bang Guy, what about Purple Up? I seem to recall a discussion where they said is was essentially calcium, is that right? Just curious since it came up.

 

[fishymomma]

Actually, like I said, It went from 20ppm to 10ppm, But will not go any lower then that.
I want to see it at 0ppm or 5ppm but I cannot obtain that. I wish I would have known this before purchasing
the star fish because when we got her she was in sand that appeared to be crushed shells, which didn't
faze me. So are you saying that if she is on the wall that she is being deprived of nutrients and food?
(Or basically going to die?)
Could she actually live safely if we fed her manually and she just stayed on the glass and occasionally
went into the sand?
I might be overfeeding them, you r right, I just don't know how much to give them, I have 3 little fish in there
that LOVE TO EAT and they will eat pretty much everything I put in the tank at feeding time, so it is extremely
hard to tell.
I feed them frozen brine shrimp, squid occasionally and some other, It came in a pack of like 3 different kinds of food.
It wasn't the cheap kind, it is a well known brand. I NEVER EVER feed them flakes. In fact, I have a fresh water
tank as well and I never feed them flakes either. I understand that it isn't very nutritional for them.

 

[fishymomma]

I heard with the purple up that it is safe if you put a limited amount in the tank rather then putting
it in daily. To much of that stuff is really overpowering and can (and will) kill everything in your tank
eventually. (I am a witness to that one!)

 

[flower]

My .02

• 
  First Bang Guy I agree 100% that type of substrate is not good for sand sifters.
• 
  4 rocks is not enough natural filtration
• 
  Purple up will raise Calcium, not nitrates...Always test calcium levels before adding it. Also NEVER dose what you can't test or.
  Below 40 nitrates is acceptable to keep soft coral and inverts (shrimp) alive so 20 - 10 nitrates did not kill the shrimp.
  Clean your filter at the very least once each month
  Overfeeding does sound like the main problem...and never use flakes or pellets

 

[smartorl]

There are many people who swear by it and use it religiously. I still stand by the deaths being the result of the water quality rather than the Purple Up itself.

 

[fishymomma]

Yes, That explains that I was overdoing it with the purple up.
My shell sand is very fine though, so does that still matter?

 

[fishymomma]

This is the kind of sand we have! Some of it is very fine and some have a little larger chunks.. But NOTHING HUGE!!

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishymomma http:///forum/thread/384372/having-some-trouble-with-my-nitrates#post_3366785
Yes, That explains that I was overdoing it with the purple up.
My shell sand is very fine though, so does that still matter?

All sand is shells. The larger kind called crushed coral is just that. It is shells crushed up and chopped and very sharp. For a sand sifting sea star you need sugar sized granules or smaller, live sand. Dead sand won't have enough food in it to keep the star alive. Also the star will deplete the fauna from the sand...unless you have an established refugium.

 

[fishymomma]

Well, you also haven't used purple up ever in your tank because you don't wanna add anything to it,
so you never know until you are willing to try. (But I don't recommend it!)

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishymomma http:///forum/thread/384372/having-some-trouble-with-my-nitrates#post_3366790
Well, you also haven't used purple up ever in your tank because you don't wanna add anything to it,
so you never know until you are willing to try. (But I don't recommend it!)

We must be posting at the same time..your sand is aragonite not crushed coral, so you have the right kind...however it only has bactertia, not true live sand. Your sea star needs a more mature tank to survive, it's hungry.
I have and do use purple up, but I test my calcium first. purple up also removes phosphates (sucks oxygen from the tank) so it isn't pure calcium. They call it purple up to help with coraline algae growth...to purple up the rocks. You have only 4 rocks, you need at least 20 - 25 pounds of rock for a 30g tank.

 

[fishymomma]

So if I have the right sand, what should I do to keep this little guy alive? Is there something I can put in the sand?
And I was talking to Smartorl when I said, the last comment about not using the purple up.

 

[meowzer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishymomma http:///forum/thread/384372/having-some-trouble-with-my-nitrates#post_3366795
So if I have the right sand, what should I do to keep this little guy alive? Is there something I can put in the sand?
You can try spot feeding it....I use scallops....I take a pea size piece and just push it into the sand 1x a week.....In your case, I would do it more often
IMO there are 2 reasons it is on the glass....1=crushed coral 2=no food for it in your sand bed
ALSO IMO I would bring it back.....wait a minimum of 6 months before you get another

 

[fishymomma]

Okay.. Now I am getting confused, I just read that the sand is okay for her just doesn't have any nutrients for her in it.
And now I hear she on the glass because of the sand???????
What kind of scallops, Frozen and then thawed?
I would probably want to feed her at least 3 times in a day right?
If she is on the glass, do you think I will even be able to feed her?