Health care fiasco

[braydonosu]

Originally Posted by JDL
http:///forum/post/3209938
the young and naive thinking $ is the ultimate goal in life. Wisdom is the ultimate goal in life. Think about it.
Again, I'll agree, wisdon is my ultimate goal, however I would gladly be naive and not have to live paycheck to paycheck over the smartest person in the world and worry about how i'm going to pay my crazy high

[hr]
because I thought that I should have a $400,000 house on my $30,000 a year salary.

 

[tank a holic]

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3209739
United Brotherhood of Carpenters have Cadillac Insurance.Blue Cross-Blue Shield.100% dental,vision,medical and prescriptions I pay $6 unless ill use generic then I pay$0.Ive never seen a bill from a Dr.
I dont know what this plan costs if it where to be broken down per member but ill take a wild guess and say a 40% tax on this plan would be like striking the motherload for the government.SO much for not raising taxes on the middle class.
+1
my plan at work is very similar,
and its not "taxing the middle class"
its spreading the wealth

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by braydonosu
http:///forum/post/3209924
I didn't read this part... I disagree. A company is making an investment in a person when they hire them. I do think that a quality education entitles you to higher pay, if not, why would anyone want to go to college? Why spend $20,000 a year for 4-5 years only to have the same pay as someone straight out of highschool.
Sure it SHOULD give you a higher pay, but only IF in the beginning you show the company the education you received was well retained and well applied to their benefit.
An education increases your options compared to someone with no college education. Should a company pay you 6 figures a year if you are unproven? I am speaking from a beginning standpoint in your career....later down the line you will prove your education was useful...hence bigger raises and such. the education is a stepping stone...this is whjat I meant.
If a guy can do the same job as you with no college education should you be paid more than him just because you spent 4 years of college learning how to do that specific job? How does the education make you more valueable than the guy with no educate that can do the same job?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3209936
Heh ehe...not really,ive preached to fellow members for years now that some day we are going to collective bargain ourselves right out of jobs. Every few years when we renegotiate our contract,ive ofter been left speechless of the outrageous increases we ask for and get most of the time.I would be perfectly happy with more modest increases and in some cases no increase at all. However this would only apply to my affiliation in Chicagoland,having been exposed to Florida's Unions it seems more fair for all parties
Just half way making fun of you...
The fact that The cuban with the goatee agrees with you should make you worried...

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3209944
Sure it SHOULD give you a higher pay, but only IF in the beginning you show the company the education you received was well retained and well applied to their benefit.
An education increases your options compared to someone with no college education. Should a company pay you 6 figures a year if you are unproven? I am speaking from a beginning standpoint in your career....later down the line you will prove your education was useful...hence bigger raises and such. the education is a stepping stone...this is whjat I meant.
If a guy can do the same job as you with no college education should you be paid more than him just because you spent 4 years of college learning how to do that specific job? How does the education make you more valueable than the guy with no educate that can do the same job?
Formal education and a piece of paper vs. Natural intelligence and rational thinking.....HMMMM .

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3209955
Just half way making fun of you...
The fact that The cuban with the goatee agrees with you should make you worried...

lol

 

[braydonosu]

I'm not really sure how to respond other than to say that it's the America that we live in. If you don't go to college you are going to have a harder time moving up in the ranks. To your point, I don't believe college makes you better than anyone, but it gives you a large base to start from to get the experience. As far as salary goes, there has to be an incentive to go to college, a college educated person should get a higher starting salary than someone straight out of high school. I see your experience argument and do agree that experience counts for a lot, but tell me this: If 10 people were going to get the exact same 10 positions at the exact same salary, would any of those 10 go to college first, get an advanced education and then still accept that position at that salary? There has to be incentive.

 

[stevedave08]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3209955
Just half way making fun of you...
The fact that The cuban with the goatee agrees with you should make you worried...

 

[braydonosu]

Sure it SHOULD give you a higher pay, but only IF in the beginning you show the company the education you received was well retained and well applied to their benefit.QUOTE]
When you are hired, a company makes an investment in you. If you turn out to be a dud, they lost. Again with my argument. If there is no incetive for you to go to college other than the possibility of maybe getting a better raise down the road (Which by the way could never happen, can you imagine the legal implications of giving someone a merit based increase higher than another person who performed as well as the college educated person simply becasuse they are college educated - I can hear Al Sharpton screaming discrimination already) why would you want to pay $20,000 a year and miss out on the 4 years of salary?

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by braydonosu
http:///forum/post/3209965
can you imagine the legal implications of giving someone a merit based increase higher than another person who performed as well as the college educated person simply becasuse they are college educated -
Every public teacher pay scale I have seen has special merit increases based solely on the amount of college education.

 

[braydonosu]

Have you ever met a teacher that is happy about their pay scale? The ones that get the higher raises are still not happy. Teachers with higher education start off with better paying jobs. Someone with a masters is payed more than someone with a bachelors right off the bat, now if that person with a bachelors gets their masters then they should start getting the same increases, but even with those increases they will not make the same amount because the person that started with a masters has been getting the higher increases for longer.
This is one case where you are right about the increase scales, but do you think that would work in industry? 2 people in the same job doing equal quality work, 1 gets a better raise because he got a college degree? Can you imagine the union outrage? They would be pushing for equal wages in a heartbeat.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by braydonosu
http:///forum/post/3209984
This is one case where you are right about the increase scales, but do you think that would work in industry? 2 people in the same job doing equal quality work, 1 gets a better raise because he got a college degree? Can you imagine the union outrage? They would be pushing for equal wages in a heartbeat.
Happens in my industry very often.
Anyone who is outraged with it is just being foolish in my opinion.

 

[stevedave08]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3209990
Happens in my industry very often.
Anyone who is outraged with it is just being foolish in my opinion.
If we were both doing the same job at the same capacity and we have the same knowledge, experience, and quality of work; then one of us making more money than the other just because you went to college is absurd because it would be blatantly obvious that your college education has nothing to do with the work you're doing. If we both do the same thing, but you went to college and I didn't, then you went to college for the wrong thing. If you have a degree that is necessary for your work and you can implement it in your work, then you deserve to get paid more because others w/o the degree cannot do the job as it requires them to know the same things you learned in college. Make sense?

 

[braydonosu]

Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3209993
If we were both doing the same job at the same capacity and we have the same knowledge, experience, and quality of work; then one of us making more money than the other just because you went to college is absurd because it would be blatantly obvious that your college education has nothing to do with the work you're doing. If we both do the same thing, but you went to college and I didn't, then you went to college for the wrong thing. If you have a degree that is necessary for your work and you can implement it in your work, then you deserve to get paid more because others w/o the degree cannot do the job as it requires them to know the same things you learned in college. Make sense?
Again, I think that we are looking at this as a whole rather than industry v corporate. In industry people have the chance to advance without college, in corporate, you are lucky to get in the door for an inteterview without a college degree.

 

[stevedave08]

Originally Posted by braydonosu
http:///forum/post/3209997
Again, I think that we are looking at this as a whole rather than industry v corporate. In industry people have the chance to advance without college, in corporate, you are lucky to get in the door for an inteterview without a college degree.
True, but there are some corporate jobs where, I won't say they don't require, but they don't necessarily need a college degree for the work involved at a certain position. It's really just a matter of saying you have a degree sometimes. Look at these kids that get degrees in the most ridiculous of things just to get a degree and really learned nothing in college other than beer pong. I've met people that have masters degrees and are the dumbest of the dumb. If you spoke to them, you'd think they never finished high school, and these are people that have gone to UofM, Barry University, Notre Dame, etc. Sometimes a degree is just a piece of paper and I don't think you should get paid more if that's the case. If you truly learned and apply things you learned on a daily basis to do your job, then by all means get the higher pay. However, if you are going to be doing the same job as me and just because you have a piece of paper in a nice frame, you get paid more...yeah, I'm not happy with that. I have a friend who I was having this conversation with the other day, who was telling me he deserved more pay than some other guy he works with (they are sports bloggers) because he has a degree and the other guy doesn't. If you put their articles side by side it looks like my buddy isn't even finished with high school, let alone college, but he expects to get paid more because he got a degree in communications. What?!? I didn't finish college because I decided to go into a completely different field. I might go back after I become a LEO, but in all honesty I would have liked to become a writer. I still do as much it as I can on my spare time, as you can see

.
Anyway, it struck a nerve with me when he said he wanted more money than the other guy, because what if it was me in the other guy's position? I never finished college, but I write 20 times better than my friend and there's the possibility of him making more money than me because he took the rest of the music appreciation, art appreciation, basket weaving classes to get a paper. Lame.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by braydonosu
http:///forum/post/3209984
This is one case where you are right about the increase scales, but do you think that would work in industry? 2 people in the same job doing equal quality work, 1 gets a better raise because he got a college degree? Can you imagine the union outrage? They would be pushing for equal wages in a heartbeat.
Ok, if you have a college degree and take an entry level job at company should you be paid more than the guy with no education at the same company entry level job? That is my point...college enables you to most likely avoid the entry level position..because having a higher education enables you to already know more...therefore you can apply to a higher position instead of entry level.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3209960

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3209944
Sure it SHOULD give you a higher pay, but only IF in the beginning you show the company the education you received was well retained and well applied to their benefit.QUOTE]
When you are hired, a company makes an investment in you. If you turn out to be a dud, they lost. Again with my argument. If there is no incetive for you to go to college other than the possibility of maybe getting a better raise down the road (Which by the way could never happen, can you imagine the legal implications of giving someone a merit based increase higher than another person who performed as well as the college educated person simply becasuse they are college educated - I can hear Al Sharpton screaming discrimination already) why would you want to pay $20,000 a year and miss out on the 4 years of salary?
You're working under the assumption that a college degree isn't a qualification to be rewarded.
The simple reason for a college degree is because the system likes them. And I personally want to make money as easily as possible.
Quite frankly I don't NEED a college degree to be doing the job I'm doing. But I'm not going to lie, I use the information I learned on a regular basis. And guess what I'm making 5 times what I was making without a college degree. And I wouldn't have been considered without that piece of paper, which makes it a rather important piece of paper.
Does my college degree make me a better person, no, candidate for a position in my field. Yes.
Now if I was a fitter or a welder, it wouldn't matter a hill of beans...
Originally Posted by SteveDave08

http:///forum/post/3209993
If we both do the same thing, but you went to college and I didn't, then you went to college for the wrong thing.
I don't know if I necessarily agree with your conclusion. But I find your argument good and amusing at the same time.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3209993
If we were both doing the same job at the same capacity and we have the same knowledge, experience, and quality of work; then one of us making more money than the other just because you went to college is absurd because it would be blatantly obvious that your college education has nothing to do with the work you're doing. If we both do the same thing, but you went to college and I didn't, then you went to college for the wrong thing. If you have a degree that is necessary for your work and you can implement it in your work, then you deserve to get paid more because others w/o the degree cannot do the job as it requires them to know the same things you learned in college. Make sense?
I think the employer should be able to dictate what adds value to an employment position as long as it doesn't violate discrimination laws. As far as I know "uneducated" isn't a protected class (yet).

 

[reefraff]

I am going to paint with a broad brush here but
Union members are not as accountable for their work output as non union members.
Union members typically have better benefits and certain protections in regards to employment practices than non union members.
So tell me again why they shouldn't be subject to the same chair bending other workers are getting?

 

[reefraff]

Years ago the CEO of a pretty good sized corporation had the best explanation of why they would require college degrees for jobs where you wouldn't think it would be needed.
It shows the intelligence and dedication needed to be trained for the job they want you to do.
The trades union workers with the exception of maybe the UAW folks I would say earn their pay. It's some of the unionized government workers I would say get a free ride. Some people spend 4 years learning how to run a business, then get a job and work their way to the top. Others spend their 4 years being a Plumber or Carpenters apprentice and while their potential for top pay may be dwarfed by what the person who went to college can earn they were getting paid while learning their job and usually earn higher pay early on in their career.