hurricane katrina
- Thread starter cartman101
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darth tang
Active Member
IMO, this is much worse than 911 in the context of the human suffering, and the magnitude of the situation. 911 was limited to the WTC and Pentagon, not all of NYC, not all of Washington DC. Why do you think would happen if all of NYC or Washington DC had been destroyed with people still in the city. Lets not compare apples with oranges. Buildings are one thing, a whole city is another. Also, survivors of 911 simply walked out of Ground Zero, and went to hospitals and went home to their families. People in NOrleans are trapped like rats in a cage.
I agree with this as far as the magnitude of the situation. But I feel having your leaders fall apart on television doesn't help the situation. Louisana has a school system for the entire state I am assumming. Cl;ose the schoold and use those buses. It is hard to get some people out as they have thugs shooting at relief help in their immediate area. My god they are shooting at the helicopters.
The Hurricane was a little over a week ago. The Levy broke a few days ago. This wasn't the mayhem and sufferring it has become until the levy broke. No one expected that. The body count before the levy in New Orleans was around 60, then the Levy broke........causing this catastrophe in New Orleans. There was no thought to evactuation, military help, or foreign aid, until the Levy broke. Everyone was moving at normal speed to take care of everything then the Levy broke and we were caught with our pants done. Just like 9/11. The difference, 9/11 had local officials that moved. The local Louisiana govt. didn't move and now they are bl;aming federal govt. for their own short comings. The louisiana govt has emergency funds set aside. Last I heard these haven't been touched or used. And yet the New Orleans Mayor is blaming the Federal Government for the catastrophe it has become.
A side note, I have a van full of clothes and items ready to donate and another van full to be loaded after that. Cleaned out closets and garages. My girlfriend and children had a ton of clothes that no longer fit.
I agree with this as far as the magnitude of the situation. But I feel having your leaders fall apart on television doesn't help the situation. Louisana has a school system for the entire state I am assumming. Cl;ose the schoold and use those buses. It is hard to get some people out as they have thugs shooting at relief help in their immediate area. My god they are shooting at the helicopters.
The Hurricane was a little over a week ago. The Levy broke a few days ago. This wasn't the mayhem and sufferring it has become until the levy broke. No one expected that. The body count before the levy in New Orleans was around 60, then the Levy broke........causing this catastrophe in New Orleans. There was no thought to evactuation, military help, or foreign aid, until the Levy broke. Everyone was moving at normal speed to take care of everything then the Levy broke and we were caught with our pants done. Just like 9/11. The difference, 9/11 had local officials that moved. The local Louisiana govt. didn't move and now they are bl;aming federal govt. for their own short comings. The louisiana govt has emergency funds set aside. Last I heard these haven't been touched or used. And yet the New Orleans Mayor is blaming the Federal Government for the catastrophe it has become.
A side note, I have a van full of clothes and items ready to donate and another van full to be loaded after that. Cleaned out closets and garages. My girlfriend and children had a ton of clothes that no longer fit.
bigarn
Active Member
Point well taken Dogstar .... but why take the chance? My personal opinion is that once the final body count is in, the city will be moved and the current New Orleans will be part of Lake Ponchatrain. (sp) The current hurricane scale goes to Cat 5, but many scientists agree that Mega Hurricanes stronger than cat 5's are not out of the question. I hope we never see one like that.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by Dogstar
The levies had already been upgraded to withstand a cat 3, It was in the pipes to upgrade to withstand a cat 5 and Bush cut out the funding for that.......
Thats from a Professor at LSU ( or maybe it was Tulain ) who was involved in the engeneering.
This is from the Reuters story about it. They were just now doing a study about an upgrade.
"It's clear that we didn't do everything we could to safeguard ourselves from this hurricane or from a natural disaster such as Katrina but hopefully we will learn and be more prepared next time," said Landrieu spokesman Brian Richardson.
The levee defenses had been designed to withstand a milder Category Three hurricane and simply were overwhelmed by Hurricane Katrina, said senior project manager Al Naomi.
"The design was not adequate to protect against a storm of this nature because we were not authorized to provide a Category Four or Five protection design," he said.
A study examining a possible upgrade is under way, he said
The levies had already been upgraded to withstand a cat 3, It was in the pipes to upgrade to withstand a cat 5 and Bush cut out the funding for that.......
Thats from a Professor at LSU ( or maybe it was Tulain ) who was involved in the engeneering.
This is from the Reuters story about it. They were just now doing a study about an upgrade.
"It's clear that we didn't do everything we could to safeguard ourselves from this hurricane or from a natural disaster such as Katrina but hopefully we will learn and be more prepared next time," said Landrieu spokesman Brian Richardson.
The levee defenses had been designed to withstand a milder Category Three hurricane and simply were overwhelmed by Hurricane Katrina, said senior project manager Al Naomi.
"The design was not adequate to protect against a storm of this nature because we were not authorized to provide a Category Four or Five protection design," he said.
A study examining a possible upgrade is under way, he said
schneidts
Active Member
The potential for disaster there has been no secret, and has been a political hotpoint since the early 1900's. In 1995, Congress created the Southeastern Lousiana Urban Flood Conrol Project. Since then, 450 million has been spent by the army corp of engineers to repair levees and pump stations in that region...and still 250 mil. of critical work was needed. It's no secret at all that the war in Iraq and homeland security funding has greatly taken away from necessary budgets like this. In fact, twice in the last 3 yrs, the administration has cut funding here. Once, in half, from the 140 million to 70 million, then down to 10.6 mil-1/6 of what was needed. Furthermore, Army corp of Engineers officials have publically said that they are understaffed and don't have the necessary manpower for projects here that are already underfunded, and are being stretched thin from reconstruction efforts in the middle east. I think our govt. is doing the best it can with budget analysis and economic problemsolving...at least I'd like to think they're doing the best they can with what they have. For all the poor people who's lives have been lost/ruined from this tragedy, and the billions of dollars that are going to be needed to rebuild there, it difinitely seems like the millions a few years ago would have been a good investment. All we can do is give bottled water, food, and blood to those who need it there, and hope that releif will come swiftly for all of them.
Does anyone else fear that we are extremely vunerable to acts of terrorism right now?
Does anyone else fear that we are extremely vunerable to acts of terrorism right now?
reefraff
Active Member
There is no way to prevent a terrorist attack here. I think the response to 911 was way to small. We know where there are terrorist camps all over the world and we should have hit them all. The one thing Afghanistan did was make other governments a little more nervous about harboring terrorist groups. Had we blown the hell out of some camps in a few other countries they'd really be thinking about it.
judyk
Member
There is no excuse for the way this recovery is being handled. There was plenty of time for troops to be ready. We knew a cat. 5 hurricane was going to hit the gulf coast and it would be catastrofic. Before Katrina hit south Florida the power companies already had their trucks ready to move in when it was safe. No city or state could handle this much devistation on their own. NO is a somewhat poor city. These people rely on public transportion and live hand to mouth. It costs money to leave if they had a place to even go to. What about the tourists that couldn't leave? People in hospitals? This is a shamefull situation. And yes, Bush did cut the funding for the levees . The quick response we got last year from the government was because of it being an election year. As soon as the election was over, FEMA stopped handing out checks immediately.
ophiura
Active Member
If we want to start blaming the government, we could just as easily go back to the 1700's or nearly at any point, and "blame" the people for not saying "hey, this river floods!" and moving the city then. But we've kept trying to keep it there...and hindsight is a worst enemy. The Army Corp of Engineers has been responsible for controlling floods, and one could easily argue those projects also increased the damage that could be caused from such storms. Depends if the glass is half empty or full...if you want levees or wetlands.
I've read something where the energy of a massive hurricane was the equivalent of 10 0r 15 atomic bombs. I would challenge anyone to imagine how we could easily, calmly and efficiently deal with such a situation.
I am torn on the city...I do think they need to come up with a way if possible to raise it, or build elsewhere, or allow the Mississsippi to return to some state of natural course and reestablish wetlands which are a natural storm break. But it will continue to sink - and increase flood risk - if it is rebuilt as is.
But I mean 10 - 15 nuclear bombs????
I've read something where the energy of a massive hurricane was the equivalent of 10 0r 15 atomic bombs. I would challenge anyone to imagine how we could easily, calmly and efficiently deal with such a situation.
I am torn on the city...I do think they need to come up with a way if possible to raise it, or build elsewhere, or allow the Mississsippi to return to some state of natural course and reestablish wetlands which are a natural storm break. But it will continue to sink - and increase flood risk - if it is rebuilt as is.
But I mean 10 - 15 nuclear bombs????
ophiura
Active Member
There is a good article here on National Geographic
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...na_levees.html
Note the studies taking 5 some odd years (and still not finished)...and construction to upgrade would have taken something like 25 years? Lots a good any funding would have done for our situation now. So lets stop blaming people and playing politics.
And as I speak I am getting very annoyed that this situation is being turned into a racial thing by some of our fine politicians. Lets create a race war while we're at it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...na_levees.html
Note the studies taking 5 some odd years (and still not finished)...and construction to upgrade would have taken something like 25 years? Lots a good any funding would have done for our situation now. So lets stop blaming people and playing politics.
And as I speak I am getting very annoyed that this situation is being turned into a racial thing by some of our fine politicians. Lets create a race war while we're at it.
ophiura
Active Member
Originally Posted by bigarn
Exactly my point Ophiura.
Yeah, it is a beautiful and historic city. I really enjoyed being there. But I wonder if there is a point where you say "it was great while it lasted" and build it somewhere else new again. People are very attached to things. Sentimental. Never left the city their whole lives. It is the American way to say "we'll rebuild it!!" If we provided for everyone that lived there, and rebuild it somewhere else...in order to prevent loss of life in the future...is that such a bad thing to say?
If we rebuild it as is, it will happen again....just a matter of time. Could be while you were rebuilding it. Could be 50 years from now. At what point is it "all good things must come to an end, and this is the end?"
Make no mistake about it I want those people cared for. Many are in this city of Houston and we'll take care of them. That's not what I'm saying.
Exactly my point Ophiura.
Yeah, it is a beautiful and historic city. I really enjoyed being there. But I wonder if there is a point where you say "it was great while it lasted" and build it somewhere else new again. People are very attached to things. Sentimental. Never left the city their whole lives. It is the American way to say "we'll rebuild it!!" If we provided for everyone that lived there, and rebuild it somewhere else...in order to prevent loss of life in the future...is that such a bad thing to say?
If we rebuild it as is, it will happen again....just a matter of time. Could be while you were rebuilding it. Could be 50 years from now. At what point is it "all good things must come to an end, and this is the end?"
Make no mistake about it I want those people cared for. Many are in this city of Houston and we'll take care of them. That's not what I'm saying.
schneidts
Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
If we provided for everyone that lived there, and rebuild it somewhere else...in order to prevent loss of life in the future...is that such a bad thing to say?
Wow, that's a pretty profound idea. I think it's a great thing to say, and why not? It might be more logical/practical to build the city somewhere more inland. What effect would that have on imports, being that it is such a hub city?
If we provided for everyone that lived there, and rebuild it somewhere else...in order to prevent loss of life in the future...is that such a bad thing to say?
Wow, that's a pretty profound idea. I think it's a great thing to say, and why not? It might be more logical/practical to build the city somewhere more inland. What effect would that have on imports, being that it is such a hub city?
snailheave
Active Member
what are you guys talking about
scubadoo
Active Member
I lived in new Orleans for 40 years. I have many friends I have not heard from but all family members that still live there are safe.
The reason it was so difficult to evacuate all folks from the City is due to economics. new Orleans is home to many that live below the pvoerty line....25-30%. many did not have the means to leave.
In 1998 there was a plan presented to the feds that would protect new Orleans from a CAT 4-5 hurricane. THe money was reduced so the plan was scrapped...ask your local representative or senator why. The cost of the project will be far less then the economic impact nation wide along with the price i tag for cleanup. With governemnt, there needs to be a body count or castrophe to move on something
What you are seeing is what many of us that have live do or currently live there fear.
The City must be rebuilt due to the petroluem industry and the port. You will all soon learn the ecnomic impact of this financila center being taken off-line. You are already seeing the results at the pump. TEN refineries are currently damaged and shut-down.
We do not hestiate to rebuild costal communities in other areas that repeatedly get hit by hurricanes. We do not hesitate to rebuild communites that live on fault lines and in earthquake zones. We rebuild communities in tornado alley and in river flood plains. It is in our national interest to do so...as the economy depends on the agriculture, commerce, raw goods, etc produced by these areas.
The mayor did his best to get folks out...he is a good man. The hurricane simply blew up too quickly and it was orginally supposed to go to north FL once entering the Gulf. It would probably take a week to get EVERYONE out of the City although studies indicate 72 hours.
There is no room left in LA for shelters..all are filled. This is why folks have to locate to other states.
Local and state government simply does not have the rsourses available to respond to this ...the federal govenrnemnt along with FEMA does.
You are all seeing the national impact on the economy...this is why it is a national interest ratehr than ssolely a local one.
Those that wish to turn this into a racial dynamic are in the business of exploitation.
I can assure you alsmost all the folks back home ar God fearing law abiding folks...just a small percentage is causing chaos. Many of the thugs that stayed behind did so intentionally, knowing the City would be empty so prime for a "rummage sale".
Unless you have lived in this wonderful City, you do not understand the demograhics, logistics, reasons, etc, etc as to why this City exists.
For those of you that do not...you are already feeling the impact. I guess we should all live in communities safe from mother nature...does such a place exist?
How many times have we rebuilt the coast/towns of FL? Records show that 39% of all hurricanes hit this state...perhaps we should relocate FL to another place.
In 1998 a plan was submitted to raise the levies, rebuild coastal wetlands and install a massive flood gate on the Gulf inlet to the lake. The price tag as I recall was 16 billion. It was not appoved on the basis that we could not spend that much money on one state. Contact your local representative or senator if still in office and thank them..as the govenrnment will now pay more...and everyone will pay higher fuels cost which will lead to inflation. it was never about one state..it was in the beast interest nationally. The thinking of Congress back then was that a Cat 4-5 hitting New Orleans would be a rare event. In fact history over the past 100 years would prove this as fact. The levies were built for a Cat 3. The feds gambled and lost......
If Osam bin Laden was hiding out in New Orleans...you would see just how quick the feds would be responding. This is a botched job similar to the botched job down in FL after Andrew.
Sudies? A plan exists...but those that wish to continue you to study need the grants and/or live in fear ofloss of tenure.
The reason it was so difficult to evacuate all folks from the City is due to economics. new Orleans is home to many that live below the pvoerty line....25-30%. many did not have the means to leave.
In 1998 there was a plan presented to the feds that would protect new Orleans from a CAT 4-5 hurricane. THe money was reduced so the plan was scrapped...ask your local representative or senator why. The cost of the project will be far less then the economic impact nation wide along with the price i tag for cleanup. With governemnt, there needs to be a body count or castrophe to move on something
What you are seeing is what many of us that have live do or currently live there fear.
The City must be rebuilt due to the petroluem industry and the port. You will all soon learn the ecnomic impact of this financila center being taken off-line. You are already seeing the results at the pump. TEN refineries are currently damaged and shut-down.
We do not hestiate to rebuild costal communities in other areas that repeatedly get hit by hurricanes. We do not hesitate to rebuild communites that live on fault lines and in earthquake zones. We rebuild communities in tornado alley and in river flood plains. It is in our national interest to do so...as the economy depends on the agriculture, commerce, raw goods, etc produced by these areas.
The mayor did his best to get folks out...he is a good man. The hurricane simply blew up too quickly and it was orginally supposed to go to north FL once entering the Gulf. It would probably take a week to get EVERYONE out of the City although studies indicate 72 hours.
There is no room left in LA for shelters..all are filled. This is why folks have to locate to other states.
Local and state government simply does not have the rsourses available to respond to this ...the federal govenrnemnt along with FEMA does.
You are all seeing the national impact on the economy...this is why it is a national interest ratehr than ssolely a local one.
Those that wish to turn this into a racial dynamic are in the business of exploitation.
I can assure you alsmost all the folks back home ar God fearing law abiding folks...just a small percentage is causing chaos. Many of the thugs that stayed behind did so intentionally, knowing the City would be empty so prime for a "rummage sale".
Unless you have lived in this wonderful City, you do not understand the demograhics, logistics, reasons, etc, etc as to why this City exists.
For those of you that do not...you are already feeling the impact. I guess we should all live in communities safe from mother nature...does such a place exist?
How many times have we rebuilt the coast/towns of FL? Records show that 39% of all hurricanes hit this state...perhaps we should relocate FL to another place.
In 1998 a plan was submitted to raise the levies, rebuild coastal wetlands and install a massive flood gate on the Gulf inlet to the lake. The price tag as I recall was 16 billion. It was not appoved on the basis that we could not spend that much money on one state. Contact your local representative or senator if still in office and thank them..as the govenrnment will now pay more...and everyone will pay higher fuels cost which will lead to inflation. it was never about one state..it was in the beast interest nationally. The thinking of Congress back then was that a Cat 4-5 hitting New Orleans would be a rare event. In fact history over the past 100 years would prove this as fact. The levies were built for a Cat 3. The feds gambled and lost......
If Osam bin Laden was hiding out in New Orleans...you would see just how quick the feds would be responding. This is a botched job similar to the botched job down in FL after Andrew.
Sudies? A plan exists...but those that wish to continue you to study need the grants and/or live in fear ofloss of tenure.
kart racer
Member
I set down to say something but just cant find the words to use. But please lets not forget the people of south Mississippi and south Alabama that are in the same boat as the people in New Orleans. We did,in fact, dodge a major bullet here.
Jeff
Jeff
scubadoo
Active Member
Originally Posted by Dogstar
Thank you scuba for a post from someone with roots from that wonderful city. I pray that your freinds are OK. Im sure if the ppl. there and in Miss. and Al. had internet and power we would be hearing a lot of the same.
Thanks..I used to lived within blocks of the 17th street levy break. My ex-wife still owns the home we once owned together so I hope she got out.
Back in 1965 a levy broke during Hurricane Betsy in the poorer lower 9th ward in New Orleans. many beleive then mayor Schiro ordered a dynamite charge to blow a hole in the levy in order to save the CBD and the historic French Qt. To my recollection, this was never proven but some folks swear it happened.
Due to lack of info...the anger has surfaced again as many beleive a levy was breached intentionally once again ...and they are mad and trapped in horrible conditions.
A local TV station is broadcasting on the net...and this has surfaced as many or saying this that are trapped. This certainly does not explain the senseless rapes, murders and shootings....but some are mad...others are oppurtunistic.
There is much history in this city....in there you can find reason for some of the anger.
I often drove over to the MS coast and it is very beautiful. The town of Bay SAint Louis is gone. I often would stop there for lunch and picnic on the pear in the downtown area. it is a total loss!
I also lived for nine years in Slidell which took a direct eye hit. Several businesses that friends owned are gone as they were under 10-20 feet of water in the downtown area of old town Slidell. Many sad stories on the coast.
The mayor of N.O. is a good man...he was on the local readio station crying last night. perhaps if some of our federal officials had his passion reaction would have been quicker. It is curious that the mayor was pleading and crying last night...and the full calvary arrived today. I can assure you he was heard......why do you think Bush reacted as hed did this AM...blasting his response team as inadequate in N.O.?
Thank you scuba for a post from someone with roots from that wonderful city. I pray that your freinds are OK. Im sure if the ppl. there and in Miss. and Al. had internet and power we would be hearing a lot of the same.
Thanks..I used to lived within blocks of the 17th street levy break. My ex-wife still owns the home we once owned together so I hope she got out.
Back in 1965 a levy broke during Hurricane Betsy in the poorer lower 9th ward in New Orleans. many beleive then mayor Schiro ordered a dynamite charge to blow a hole in the levy in order to save the CBD and the historic French Qt. To my recollection, this was never proven but some folks swear it happened.
Due to lack of info...the anger has surfaced again as many beleive a levy was breached intentionally once again ...and they are mad and trapped in horrible conditions.
A local TV station is broadcasting on the net...and this has surfaced as many or saying this that are trapped. This certainly does not explain the senseless rapes, murders and shootings....but some are mad...others are oppurtunistic.
There is much history in this city....in there you can find reason for some of the anger.
I often drove over to the MS coast and it is very beautiful. The town of Bay SAint Louis is gone. I often would stop there for lunch and picnic on the pear in the downtown area. it is a total loss!
I also lived for nine years in Slidell which took a direct eye hit. Several businesses that friends owned are gone as they were under 10-20 feet of water in the downtown area of old town Slidell. Many sad stories on the coast.
The mayor of N.O. is a good man...he was on the local readio station crying last night. perhaps if some of our federal officials had his passion reaction would have been quicker. It is curious that the mayor was pleading and crying last night...and the full calvary arrived today. I can assure you he was heard......why do you think Bush reacted as hed did this AM...blasting his response team as inadequate in N.O.?