hurricane katrina

[beth]

Good point, ScubaDoo, and, as always, very thorough. The point is well taken about rebuilding coastal communities. And, with a lot of money, N Orleans can be made safer from even a cat 5. Those levees are just not adequate.
It is also not easy to just ask people to pick up and leave. People who don't live with hurricanes just don't realize what you are asking when you say evacuate, evacuate. Hurricanes don't just happen every 10 yrs you know. How would like to leave your home several times a year??? A persons home is their castle, and all of that. Even if you do leave, and nothing really devastating happens to your home, bad things do happen to unprotected property--as you can see now in NO.
I don't know anything about the mayor of NO but I feel that his comments were out of shear frustration and agony. And now, even Pres. Bush comments that the response of the government has not been adequate, so we should all now be able to agree that it was not good enough. Live and learn from mistakes, that is the most important thing. Thank goodness, the military finally arrived today, along with food, water and protection.

 

[magooo2]

FEMA requires each state to have contingecy plans for exactly what has happened . It is the state and Local Officials resposibilty to carry them out. It is the Govonor's responsibilty to call up the "National Gaurd" For peace keeping efforts. I actually believe its not lawfull for the "army " to be called in for Local disaters. Thats the reason for the national Gaurd. National defence is left to the feds. Having the local officials crying on TV that the feds didnt care about them was just them covering there own butts for failing miserably.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Magooo2
FEMA requires each state to have contingecy plans for exactly what has happened . It is the state and Local Officials resposibilty to carry them out. It is the Govonor's responsibilty to call up the "National Gaurd" For peace keeping efforts. I actually believe its not lawfull for the "army " to be called in for Local disaters. Thats the reason for the national Gaurd. National defence is left to the feds. Having the local officials crying on TV that the feds didnt care about them was just them covering there own butts for failing miserably.
Sorry but you are wromg. THe Department of Homeland Security now has the responsibility that you are claiming is vested with FEMA....evacuation plans. Local governments/municipalities do not have the resources to handle a total evacuation of a major city in a short period of time . Many roads that lead in and out of New Orleans are outside flood protection levies and are often cut-off long before storms arrive. Certianly local government could do more in this situation, but they do not have the resouces to move these types of numbers in a few days,
You are wrong regarding the military.....it is lawful to call them in...but they cannot enforce law.....the national guard can enforce law...the military can perform a "service" and/or "support" mission.
Unfortunately. one third of the ACTIVE LA National Gurad was over in Iraq serving their country on foreign soil, while thier fellow LA folks needed them. If national defense is left to the Feds why to we send the National Gurad abroad? .
In 1969 Nixon had federal aid/assistance/troops in Mississippi in less than 48 hours after Hurricane Camille hit the gulf coast.
You are now beginning to hear folks on the Mississippi GUlf Coast asking where is FEMA and the government. Small Mississippi towns have been receiving aid from other states but not much from Mr Bush...I guess he is too busy strumming his guitar earlier this week.
That great functional federal agency FEMA showed up in another hard hit town called Slidell today. They had generators and diesel fuel but could not leave them because they claimed the area hand not been surveyed by some higher FEMA official. The mayor Ben Morris..a man I have met and have great respect for pleaded with them to leave the equipment...that his team knew how to use it and it was needed. FEMA removed the equipment and THREATENED to remove City equipment as well. He was on the local internat broadcast cusing , swearing, etc . This is a noble man and I was shocked to see it. FEMA is botchng this the same as they botched Dade County after Andrew.
You are correct local govenrments should do more..as relying on the feds proves to be frustrating most times....they'll let you down al the time Unfortunately, Uncle Sam sucks so much from our paychecks...it leaves crumbs for stetes..and even less for cities.

 

[moraymike]

First, let me say that this is a horrible tragedy, and we in Texas are doing everything we can do to help those helpless victims of the storm.
I too have spent plenty of time in New Orleans on business. A very unique city with a wonderful culture. However, everyone knew this was going to happen one day. I think that state and local officials clearly were not adequately prepared. The reason that the City of Houston was able to respond so quickly is because we recognize that the Houston/Galveston area is a prime candidate for a catastrophic storm, terror attack, etc. They've been drilling and preparing response action plans for years. You mean to tell me that the City of New Orleans, a city below sea level, didn't have the foresight to know that thousands would not or could not evacuate if there were a category 5 storm? They had no plan other than pack them in the Super Dome. In my opinion (and it's the opinion of most around here), they buried their heads in the sand. Anyway, the state and local officials knew that the poorest folks would be in trouble. They did nothing for these people. Nothing. I don't want to hear about if we would've spent $X back during the Clinton administration. Sorry, the city is slowly sinking every day as the pump rain water out. It doesn't matter if they built better levee systems. Restoring marshes isn't going to stop it completely. That was a losing battle no matter what. All we could do was develop a contingency plan.
With respect to the Federal Government, give me a break. It's the state's responsibility to govern their people. Period. Once the governor of LA requested the help, it came.
Now, let's not waist time and energy debating the why aspect. The reality of it is that we can't go back in time, so let's all do our parts and help those in need. Also, let's all take a few moments to realize how lucky we are.

 

[darth tang]

We could sit here and debate who's fault it is till we are blue in the face. It isn't going to change things. We can also sit here and blame govt. officials of our choosing for not responding quick enough. But to me now, this is no longer my issue. Here is what is now my issue.
I have now started paying attention to who is helping out and donating. I have been waiting for certain names and have yet to see them.
Where are the donations from the following people and their millions to billions of dollars.

[hr]

[hr]
,

[hr]

[hr]
, Nicole Ritchie, and just about any other superficial lame star that is in the public limelight.
I am shocked to not have heard what Oprah has done, she is normally one of the first.
I am proud of the NFL and their quick donations and continued efforts to gather money and supplies. Credit specifically to Brett Favre, Steve Mcnair, The Dallas and packer organizations and the Ravens, specifically Deion Sander and Ed Reed. Just to name a couple.
But to date, the only hollywood stars I have heard about are Nick Cage, Hilary Duff, Jay-Z, and P. Diddy. The relief concert that was put together had hardly anyone of worth and wasn't much of a concert. Where are the celebrities with the real money?

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by MorayMike
First, let me say that this is a horrible tragedy, and we in Texas are doing everything we can do to help those helpless victims of the storm.
I too have spent plenty of time in New Orleans on business. A very unique city with a wonderful culture. However, everyone knew this was going to happen one day. I think that state and local officials clearly were not adequately prepared. The reason that the City of Houston was able to respond so quickly is because we recognize that the Houston/Galveston area is a prime candidate for a catastrophic storm, terror attack, etc. They've been drilling and preparing response action plans for years. You mean to tell me that the City of New Orleans, a city below sea level, didn't have the foresight to know that thousands would not or could not evacuate if there were a category 5 storm? They had no plan other than pack them in the Super Dome. In my opinion (and it's the opinion of most around here), they buried their heads in the sand. Anyway, the state and local officials knew that the poorest folks would be in trouble. They did nothing for these people. Nothing. I don't want to hear about if we would've spent $X back during the Clinton administration. Sorry, the city is slowly sinking every day as the pump rain water out. It doesn't matter if they built better levee systems. Restoring marshes isn't going to stop it completely. That was a losing battle no matter what. All we could do was develop a contingency plan.
With respect to the Federal Government, give me a break. It's the state's responsibility to govern their people. Period. Once the governor of LA requested the help, it came.
Now, let's not waist time and energy debating the why aspect. The reality of it is that we can't go back in time, so let's all do our parts and help those in need. Also, let's all take a few moments to realize how lucky we are.

Look at the resources it is taking to now get these people out of town. I can assure you plans were in place including turning interstatres into one way traffic out of town, etc, etc. The fedral and local government knew this would happen ahead of time. There is plenty blame to go around.
I worked for the City of New Orleans for three years in the Department of Revenue. There are many good people that attempted to secure dfederal money for years to prevent this from happening. A project was on the table for years but the feds simply did not want to spend the money...they'll spend 10 fold now.
This problem cannot be blamed on one administration..as Democrats and republican administrations have came and gone. Was there a plan that could have prevented this...YES. It mirrored a smilar set-up over in Holland. Would it have worked? Yes, it has in Holland.. This plan also included rebuilding the wetlands. WHy did it no get done? A strom of this magnmitude is considered rare. Washington felt that it would happen..and hoped it would happen but on someone elses "watch". Excuse me but it was not and is not a losing battle. You are not familiar with the plan and therefore your comment/opinion is uninformed and hollow. ...but you are entitled to state it as we all are. It was a COMPREHENSIVE plan..with the wetlands and levies as parts of same.
Is this area of national interst and should it have been protected? Absolutely....just look at the numer of refineries, oil industry support, super port faciltiy in the gulf off the LA coast, and percentage of commoditioes that past through the Port of N.O. All of this will have a significant impact on the ENTIRE economy...you are already seeing it. There is a bigger picture here that is often lost in debate, analysis, federal budget, etc.

 

[lovethesea]

[hr]
Kanye West Rips Bush During NBC Concert By FRAZIER MOORE, AP Television Writer
Sat Sep 3, 6:08 AM ET
NEW YORK - It began, fittingly enough, with jazz from New Orleans natives Harry Connick Jr. and Wynton Marsalis. But "A Concert for Hurricane Relief," a heartfelt and dignified benefit aired on NBC and other networks Friday night, took an unexpected turn thanks to the outspoken rapper Kanye West.
Appearing two-thirds through the program, he claimed " George Bush doesn't care about black people" and said America is set up "to help the poor, the black people, the less well-off as slow as possible."
Lets hope we see this egocentric down there with a shovel and a dumspter helping clean up. Do you think we will?? Or any of the above "stars" mentioned in the above post? I would bet that a few of them don't even have a clue the magnitude of this disaster. Hopefully they will put their money where their mouth is

 

[darth tang]

Was there a plan that could have prevented this...YES. It mirrored a smilar set-up over in Holland. Would it have worked? Yes, it has in Holland..
Not to be an ass, but when was the last time Holland experienced a class 4 Hurricane? When was the last time they experienced any hurricane? How is mirroring a plan set up in Holland, a Guarantee to work when both areas are geographically different with different weather patterns? That is like using an irrigation system designed for The Amazon rainforest and using it in the Sahara desert.

 

[fuax]

(quote from scubadoo)
If Osam bin Laden was hiding out in New Orleans...you would see just how quick the feds would be responding. This is a botched job similar to the botched job down in FL after Andrew.
I understand the fustration here but what does this statement have to do with the hurricane. Other than bashing the current administrtion. Nothing has been botch things are happening as quickly as they can be given the situation. It really sucks but thing do not happen instantly and People tend to forget that. And as far a Fl during andrew is conrcerned that wasn't botched either but it was a completely different situation altogether.
Scubadoo I beleive you to be a good guy I have read many of your posts on other threads and although I do not agree with everything you have said about the hobby I think you are a fairly informed person but, I have read most of your posts on this thread and the distain you have for the fed gov. is blatantly appearent.
(quote from Darth Tang)
I have now started paying attention to who is helping out and donating. I have been waiting for certain names and have yet to see them.
Where are the donations from the following people and their millions to billions of dollars.

[hr]

[hr]
,

[hr]

[hr]
, Nicole Ritchie, and just about any other superficial lame star that is in the public limelight.
I am shocked to not have heard what Oprah has done, she is normally one of the first.
Very well said Darth
The issue has been laid before this country, we as a people and country have always done for ourselves and once again we need to. When are we going to stop blaming people and the government for what we think should have been done. When are we as a people and a country going to stop relying on the federal governement to solve all our problems for us, Don't you think its time to stand up and be counted in what ever way you can be.
I have been counted in the only way I can at this time I have sent money to assist in the releif effort. The police dept I used to work for has sent the Dive rescue search and recovery team that I was on when I was an officer ( if you only knew how much it hurts that my on duty injuries that I sustained when I was an officer have prevented me from helping out in my countries time of need).
So basically stop monday morning quarterbacking the situation and start helping where, how and when you can.

 

[moraymike]

This problem cannot be blamed on one administration..as Democrats and republican administrations have came and gone. Was there a plan that could have prevented this...YES. It mirrored a smilar set-up over in Holland. Would it have worked? Yes, it has in Holland.. This plan also included rebuilding the wetlands. WHy did it no get done? A strom of this magnmitude is considered rare. Washington felt that it would happen..and hoped it would happen but on someone elses "watch". Excuse me but it was not and is not a losing battle. You are not familiar with the plan and therefore your comment/opinion is uninformed and hollow. ...but you are entitled to state it as we all are. It was a COMPREHENSIVE plan..with the wetlands and levies as parts of same.
QUOTE]
No, no... you must have misunderstood or I didn't communicate clearly. Sorry for that.

We're talking about two different things here. I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't have invested the $ in New Orleans. You are exactly right, nobody wanted anything to happen on their watch. With the amount of support that they would've received nationally, it was a losing battle. But, I'm not sure that anything could be done to stop the city from sinking (levees and marsh isn't going to stop that - as long as it rains and they keep pumping water out, they'll keep sinking). Now, I'd like to understand how LA came up with a plan to make a city category 5 proof. As Darth Tang points out Holland has yet to be tested, so mirroring their plan doesn't mean much. In fact, if they've figured out how to make a city cat 5 proof, let's implement this plan along all of our gulf coast. Sorry, but your comments lose credibility for me there (see your uniformed comment). But if they did have a bunch of civil engineers with PE's working in the department of revenue, I could be wrong. Again, I think you missed my point, and I'm sorry if I miss communciated.
MY POINT was simply this. They knew it was going to happen. They let those people stay. They had no plan for getting them out of the superdome. How much LA tax money would it have taken for them to store water and food rations at various locations throughout the city.
Yes, the port, oil industry, etc. are critical in LA, as is ALL ALONG our gulf coast. So, it should all be "protected."

 

[ophiura]

The port, industry etc are certainly quite important as they are throughout the US...personally, I think we DO need to reconsider some of our coastal development, and the building/rebuilding of homes/communities on fault lines, mountainsides subject to landslides, coastal areas, etc. IMO. It is not a personal insult, it is risk managment. It is trying to save people from obviously potentially compromised situations which they may have no control over. At least we need to reevaluate building codes (as done in much of California for earthquakes) once again.
But there are some areas that are in a particularly high risk catagory (such as New Orleans which SURVIVED the actual hurricane relatively well - I remember seeing people in the French Quarter bars on Monday night). Maybe we should think about building in certain areas. Mother nature is gonna win, over and over and over again.
I mean no ill intent in questioning whether New Orleans should simply be rebuilt just with bigger levees. Maybe it can be raised, I don't know. It is a beautiful city, with extraordinary people...and it is those PEOPLE who make the culture and heart of the city. Not its location and buildings, IMO. There are definitely lots of people in evacuation shelters who are saying they are not going back to New Orleans. We knew it would happen, and it did.
Again, hindsight is our worst enemy. There were lots of school buses shown parked in parking lots flooded out. Why weren't they used to evacuate people? Lots of questions could be answered...and would be answered differently no doubt, knowing what we know now. There are decades to blame just like there were decades to prepare. And the preparation was poor. But it doesn't get us anywhere. This is the here and now, not what should have or could have been in place. All we have is now and the future...and it is a fair thing, a rational thing to sit and say 1) Should it be rebuilt under the same conditions 2) What can we do to mitigate the risk 3) will those changes realistically prevent issues in the future. Simple risk management. And I do think we need to think of that through most of our coastal areas.
I think, God forbid, a lot of what we decided will come down to the death toll, which we can only pray will be lower than anticipated. And all we can do, is focus on how to help in whatever way we can. And I am really amazed at the outpouring so far. I certainly have not forgotten Mississippi and Alabama (I lived for a time in Mobile...and Dauphin Island).
These discussions are not intended to be personal and insensitive...not in any way. But nor do I like blame, politics, race cards, etc. I don't think it gets us anywhere and maybe takes us back several decades

Truth be told, I find the situation totally overwhelming, and need to talk about it, whether we all agree or not. We're all in this thing together as a nation, and we certainly will not all agree

 

[celacanthr]

i believe that the governor did everything she could do at that point before the hurricane she risked her career to tell people to get the hell outta there.
also I understand that is bad, but it could be worse, like if it was marti gras i dont think the college students would have listened to warnings.

 

[schneidts]

Originally Posted by CELACANTHr
i believe that the governor did everything he could do at that point before the hurricane he risked his career to tell people to get the hell outta there.
:notsure: The governor is a she.

As always, starlady, well said.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Not to be an ass, but when was the last time Holland experienced a class 4 Hurricane? When was the last time they experienced any hurricane? How is mirroring a plan set up in Holland, a Guarantee to work when both areas are geographically different with different weather patterns? That is like using an irrigation system designed for The Amazon rainforest and using it in the Sahara desert.
Have you ever seen a storm in the North Sea? Quite similar to storms in the Atlantiic basin. The plan was to build a "gate" that would close and prevent a surging rising sea from entering a waterway. There is definetly a smilarity between the gulf inlet and the Holland project.
Delta Plan Project
Making Holland Watertight
The bursting of the dikes in the Netherlands under the pounding surge of a huge storm flood in 1953 led to a disaster of biblical proportions. Over 2,000 people drowned when the indomitable “Blanke Hans” - the raging and unrelenting North Sea - swept into this low-lying country. Vowing that this should never happen again, its populations embarked in 1955 on the gigantic “Delta Plan Project”. The aim was to engineer structures that would protect the provinces of Zuidholland and Zeeland from further devastating storm floods. In 1997, the Dutch reported that Holland was now watertight, and Queen Beatrix inaugurated the storm flood barrier (Stormvloedkering) on the Nieuwe Waterway, the keystone of the Delta Plan Project. The weir (a low dam built to back up water) is one of the world’s most spectacular mobile marine structures and can be depended on to protect the Netherlands from the North Sea.

 

[darth tang]

There has never been a storm in the north sea with as much force as Katrina has. Look it up.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
There has never been a storm in the north sea with as much force as Katrina has. Look it up.
Engiineering models and experts (of which I am not) state it would have worked...we'll never know. In recorded history there has only been a few storms stronger in the Atlantic Basin. You have to beleive that the experts know what they are doing. No one questioned whether it would work..they simply could not justify the expense as a federal project. Now is the time to revisit....so this does nto happen again. To rebulld (if the feds decide to) without this in place would be a mistake.
I fear the death toll will aproach 50K in the area....so this will bring the debate to the front burner. Unfortunaely, this is ofen how things work ......as the spotlight shines on certain areas after catastophe with massive loss of life.
You are correct that no strom in the North Sea has been hit those gates as of yet.
I'll take leave of this thread now..as I have stated all I know about how this and my opinion. I have always supported the federal government, but I have no problems stating my opinion in support of or against regarding decisions, laws, responses recations, failures, cuceeses, policies, taxes, programs, etc.
We can only move forward and look to the future. We can NEVER forget the past and we must learn. As I said..........those of us that do not learn form history will most likely live to see history repaet itself. One can never forget...as you will eventually be reminded if you do.
I certainly intend nothing personal as talking about this helps....as I have been very angry and quite sad over the past week. I know I have probably lost a few friends in the region.
Thoughts and prayers to all those with loved ones and friends in this coastal region...the days ahead will be very cloudy before the sun shines again.

 

[beth]

I just listened to an interview on the radio with the head colonel of the National Guard in Mississippi and he said that their response time, of course, would have been a lot quicker if X-amt of the Guard were not deployed in Iraq. Additionally, he said, there were many Guard living in the Gulf that were very much effected, some who don't even know the status of their own families.
As for movie stars, yes they should all start taking care of home, since so many are being so generous with their time and money abroad. After-all, it is US who has handed their millions to them on a silver platter. However, Jerry Lewis is dedicating a part of his telethon this weekend to the Katrina victims. Go Jerry! A real American movie celebrity!
Abandoning our coastal cities because it is dangerous just is not going to happen. This is prime real estate! Are we going to basically give Florida over to swamps again? There are ways to make coastal cities withstand hurricanes, and now NO will likely have to look at that. For instance, you can't build a house in the Keys that is not on stilts and the stilts are made of reinforced concrete.

 

[moraymike]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
Engiineering models and experts (of which I am not) state it would have worked...we'll never know. In recorded history there has only been a few storms stronger in the Atlantic Basin. You have to beleive that the experts know what they are doing. No one questioned whether it would work..they simply could not justify the expense as a federal project. Now is the time to revisit....so this does nto happen again. To rebulld (if the feds decide to) without this in place would be a mistake.
I fear the death toll will aproach 50K in the area....so this will bring the debate to the front burner. Unfortunaely, this is ofen how things work ......as the spotlight shines on certain areas after catastophe with massive loss of life.
You are correct that no strom in the North Sea has been hit those gates as of yet.
I'll take leave of this thread now..as I have stated all I know about how this and my opinion. I have always supported the federal government, but I have no problems stating my opinion in support of or against regarding decisions, laws, responses recations, failures, cuceeses, policies, taxes, programs, etc.
We can only move forward and look to the future. We can NEVER forget the past and we must learn. As I said..........those of us that do not learn form history will most likely live to see history repaet itself. One can never forget...as you will eventually be reminded if you do.
I certainly intend nothing personal as talking about this helps....as I have been very angry and quite sad over the past week. I know I have probably lost a few friends in the region.
Thoughts and prayers to all those with loved ones and friends in this coastal region...the days ahead will be very cloudy before the sun shines again.
Nothing personal taken ... we're all frustrated and we all wish this didn't happen. Take care.

 

[magooo2]

[QUOTE=
Unfortunately. one third of the ACTIVE LA National Gurad was over in Iraq serving their country on foreign soil, while thier fellow LA folks needed them. If national defense is left to the Feds why to we send the National Gurad abroad? .
[QUOTE=
National Gaurd troops also take up roles in active duty service as they have for years. This again has nothing to do with Our active duty units or Nation guard troops in Iraq, But if you feal the need to Bash this admin for mistakes In the War ,you wont need to do it under the guise of poor responce after a hurricane. Strumming his gutar??? My goodnes the depths some will go. I am done here. May god Bless all those who serve and protect this great nation.

 

[cartman101]

man! look at those gas prices!