hurricane katrina

[darth tang]

I saw the Kanye west thing. Even as a musician I see him as subpar. Now I know he has character to match. I will however give credit where it is due. i disagree with Sean Penn politically, but the guy gets my respect and grudging admiration. Read the following.
Penn accuses Bush amid rescue chaos
The US government was accused of "criminal negligence" as hopes of finding survivors faded and the death toll from Hurricane Katrina continued to rise.
Holidaymakers returning to the UK spoke of the scale of the misery while one said leering police officers demanded young women flash their breasts in return for help.
Oscar-winning Hollywood actor Sean Penn, who has been assisting rescue efforts in New Orleans, said the US government did not "seem to be inclined to help".
"We were pulling drowning people out of the water, it's the ultimate distress and human suffering ... dead bodies," he told GMTV.
Penn said he had spent nine hours on Monday searching the water for people and during all that time he saw just three boats carrying US officials.
"There are people that are dying right now and I mean babies and old people and everybody in between - they're dying. There are people dying and (the US government are) not putting the boats in the water, I think that's criminal negligence. I don't think anybody ever anticipated the criminal negligence of the Bush administration in this situation."
The US authorities were also castigated by British bus driver Ged Scott, from Wallasey, Merseyside, who was on holiday in the New Orleans area.
He stayed in the Ramada Hotel during and after the devastation with his wife, Sandra, and seven-year-old son Ronan. At one stage, Mr Scott, 36, had to wade through filthy water to barricade the hotel doors against looters.
He told the Liverpool Daily Post: "I couldn't describe how bad the authorities were. Just little things like taking photographs of us, as we are standing on the roof waving for help, for their own little snapshot albums.
"At one point, there were a load of girls on the roof of the hotel saying 'Can you help us?' and the policemen said 'Show us what you've got' and made signs for them to lift their T-shirts. When the girls refused, they said 'Fine' and motored off down the road in their boat."

 

[darth tang]

George W. finally gets it -- in more ways than one. The tardy president was back on the Gulf Coast yesterday, bucking up the spirits of the damned and stiffening the resolve of the slackers.
He's getting it as well from his critics, many of whom can't believe their great good luck, that a hurricane, of all things, finally gives them the opening they've been waiting for to heap calumny and scorn on him for something that might get a little traction. Cindy Sheehan is yesterday's news; she couldn't attract a camera crew this morning if she stripped down to her step-ins for a march on Prairie Chapel Ranch.
The vultures of the venomous left are attacking on two fronts, first that the president didn't do what the incompetent mayor of New Orleans and the pouty governor of Louisiana should have done, and didn't, in the early hours after Katrina loosed the deluge on the city that care and good judgment forgot. Ray Nagin, the mayor, ordered a "mandatory" evacuation a day late, but kept the city's 2,000 school buses parked and locked in neat rows when there was still time to take the refugees to higher ground. The bright-yellow buses sit ruined now in four feet of dirty water. Then the governor, Kathleen Blanco, resisted early pleas to declare martial law, and her dithering opened the way for looters, rapists and killers to make New Orleans an unholy hell. Gov. Haley Barbour did not hesitate in neighboring Mississippi, and looters, rapists and killers have not turned the streets of Gulfport and Biloxi into killing fields.
The drumbeat of partisan ingratitude continues even after the president flooded the city with National Guardsmen from a dozen states, paratroopers from Fort Bragg and Marines from the Atlantic and the Pacific. The flutter and chatter of the helicopters above the ghostly abandoned city, some of them from as far away as Singapore and averaging 240 missions a day, is eerily reminiscent of the last days of Saigon. Nevertheless, Sen. Mary Landrieu, who seems to think she's cute when she's mad, even threatened on national television to punch out the president -- a felony, by the way, even as a threat. Mayor Nagin, who you might think would be looking for a place to hide, and Gov. Blanco, nursing a bigtime snit, can't find the right word of thanks to a nation pouring out its heart and emptying its pockets. Maybe the senator should consider punching out the governor, only a misdemeanor.
The race hustlers waited for three days to inflame a tense situation, but then set to work with their usual dedication. The Revs. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, our self-appointed twin ambassadors of ill will, made the scene as soon as they could, taking up the coded cry that Katrina was the work of white folks, that a shortage of white looters and snipers made looting and sniping look like black crime, that calling the refugees "refugees" was an act of linguistic racism. A "civil rights activist" on Arianna Huffington's celebrity blog even floated the rumor that the starving folks abandoned in New Orleans had been forced to eat their dead -- after only four days. New Orleans has a reputation for its unusual cuisine, but this tale was so tall that nobody paid it much attention. Neither did anyone tell the tale-bearer to put a dirty sock in it.
Condi Rice went to the scene to say what everyone can see for himself, that no one but the race hustlers imagine Americans of any hue attaching strings to the humanitarian aid pouring into the broken and bruised cities of the Gulf. Most of the suffering faces in the flickering television images are black, true enough, and most of the helping hands are white.
Black and white churches of all denominations across a wide swath of the South stretching from Texas across Arkansas and Louisiana into Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama and Georgia turned their Sunday schools into kitchens and dormitories. In Memphis, Junior Leaguers turned out for baby-sitting duty at the city's largest, most fashionable and nearly all white Baptist church, cradling tiny black infants in compassionate arms so their mothers could finally sleep. The owner of a honky-tonk showed up to ask whether the church would "accept money from a bar." A pastor took $1,400, some of it in quarters, dimes and nickels, with grateful thanks and a promise to see that it is spent wisely on the deserving -- most of whom are black.
The first polls, no surprise, show the libels are not working. A Washington Post-ABC survey found that the president is not seen as the villain the nutcake left is trying to make him out to be. Americans, skeptical as ever, are believing their own eyes.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/pruden.htm

 

[ophiura]

I'll give credit to Sean Penn for being out there...but shut the trap for once. Its just not the right time. HELLLOOOOO see all those helicopters flying around? To me such accusations are a slap in the face to the guys who are giving 110% out there. Again, just profiteering. Pure and simple shameful profiteering.

 

[darth tang]

He is physically doing something though, atleast. I actually hold that higher than giving money as a celebrity. It is easy for rich people to give money, but your time and effort is far more to me. He can speak his mind, as he is atleast doing something to try and help the situation that he sees as wrong. Unlike so many others that just want to point fingers and sit in their lazy boy eating caviar.
cough cough Kanye cough cough...

 

[reefraff]

Being somewhat of a big time political junkie I try to gleem information from as many different sources as I can find. Yesterday I was driving home and was listening to Air America, or better put, Err America. Some twit was interviewing what she discribed as a long time social justice activist who lives in the NO area and was staying put to help out. He took off on the mayor of NO for not using the city buses or school buses to get more people out. The talk show twit actually said "I am a bit taken aback by your comments, don't you think you are playing into the Bush administration's hands by criticising the mayor's actions?". The guy came back with "hey, there is enough blame to go around for the city, state and feds". End of interview. She assumed the guy would just take off on Bush.
God forbid a rational and honest person speak the truth and not just bash Bush. I am a right leaning independant but these extremists that are taking over the Democrat party are turning me into a Party line Republican. Just like the 911 commission this has been turned into a political forum by certain individuals and it royaly pisses me off. The priority should be fixing the problems now and worrying about what went wrong later on. The Feds have actually shown a great deal of class. I've watched three interviews now where homeland security and FEMA officials, after days of being attacked by state and local officials have refused to point fingers when interviewers asked what went wrong with state and local disaster plans. Instead of turning the tables these guys have actually defended the Mayor and Governor. They have the right idea. Lets help the people first and worry about the political crap later.

 

[cirrusdawg]

wait a minute, what is this holland plan everyone is talking about exactly??

 

[ophiura]

I think just a comparison to what the country of the Netherlands does to protect against flooding...however, in their case it is a good hunk (50% or more) of the whole COUNTRY would be lost to regular flooding. IMO, it is not quite the same. They don't have too many options. Really startling image of how much of their COUNTRY (and several major cities) would be lost on page 10.
Here is a link to a brochure:
http://www.verkeerenwaterstaat.nl/ob...=Object&id=152
The propose some things that I am in favor of, including allowing rivers to have "room" and return to natural meanders, etc. VERY important for the Mississippi. Also note that the country had major flooding in the mid nineties requiring large scale evacuations...even with an extensive and advanced flood control plan.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by cirrusdawg
wait a minute, what is this holland plan everyone is talking about exactly??
They installed a large flood gate to prevent the North Sea from flooding ares in Holland. A similar gate was to be installed on the Gulf inlet to the lake in LA. This was part of a comprehensive flood protetion plan for the LA and New Orleans area. The price tage was 16 billion and it was not approved as presented. Even if approved, it would take 20-30 years to complete such a massive project. The idea with the flood gate is that it would prevent the storm surge from entering the lake and flooding the City.
Both republican and democratic administrations have been in power so one certainly cannot balme either party..both or at fault...if one is looking to place blame.
Also, we keep hearing that levies failed anfd this is false. What actually failed are some of the flood walls. ALL of the earth type levies held in N.O. Three flood walls were breached. The one on the industrial canal I beleive is only 14.5 feet and the other two are 18 feet high. THe industrial canal breach was predictable. given the height of the wall and the storm surge.
I am convinced the flood walls failed due to the recent changes in the bridges across the flood walls. In the past, the bridges were slightly lower and the tops of the bridges were fortified with sand bags allowing the water to pass over. With the raising of the bridges, water no longer could pass over meaning it had to go through the opening beneath the higher bridges. It is quite obvious that the bride over the 17th street canal had massive debirs clogging one side causing water to back up and restricting flow. This caused a backup forcing the water over the flood wall and erroding the base causing failure. A simlar tyoe situation existed on the London Avenue canal as well.
The lake would have been the highest long before the two flood wall s failed. What caused them to fail the second day? Debis buildup from down trees,building material, trash etc clogging, restricting flow under/through bridge outlets causing water to backup, top the walls and errode the base leading to structure failure.
perhaps as this is investigated it will come to light. I am convinced this is the cause of the London Ave and 17th St Canal breaches. Both are constructed alike. ...both led to 60% of the flooding.
The sattelite pictures showed this situation on the 17th St Canal right after the flood. They have since remove the debris on the 17th St Canal. I wouls estimate the debis on one side was about once blocj long. It basically formed a partial dam. I used to live with a few blocks of the 17th St Canal and watched them build those flood walls and bridges.

 

[scubadoo]

Regarding the busing controversy...it is obvious the media does not understand the logistics, etc. The bus yard on the AP picture had approximately 200 buses and they were Orleans Parish School Board Busese. . You can subtract about 50 from that number as many are kept for parts, etc and are non-operational. The local transit company or RTA (Regional Transit Authority) also had a fleet of about 300 buses and you can deduct about the same number as non-operational.
Could these buses have been used to evacuate people? Yes...what is the outcome? Actually more people would have died in this tragedy. How and Why? Once evacuations start the interstate system iis turned into contra flow meaning the only flow iis out of and not into the City. This was developed after the 1998 hurricane Georges as local officails realized that many would be stranded in traffic jams. This hurricane missed the City. These buses would have been trapped outside the City meaning they could probably only make one trip out..no way back, If you do the math, approximately 50 people per bus times about 450 buses equals 22,500 people assuming all would have left. and buses would be full.
Many of these busses were used to transport folks to the Superdome and convention center. They evacuated approximately 50-60K people from both locations. Assuming some may have got their on their own you can further reduce this numebr by 10-15K. So how would the addtional folks transported to these locations been saved from the high water if buses were unavailable? Probably twice as many folks were saved by not uoilizing all buses for out-of-the area evacuation.
To get everyone out, you would need to start the evacuations before hrurricane watches are issued...and long before hurricane warnings are issued. Early on, many would not evacuate given the fact that the hurricane is only a Cat 1 or 2 and exact landfall location within plus or minus 50 miles of a given point unceratin. Few would have left this early if buses were made available .....leaving the situation I have desscribed.
I strongly beleive that the above is what would have happened if buses attempted to move folks out of the area. You would have seen even more deaths.
JMO

 

[scubadoo]

100's of volunteers are currently rescuing animals in New Orleans. Please when giving do not overlook our four-legged friends and please support agencies that are providing shelter and rescuing these animals.

 

[magooo2]

My

were the fact that you can take any one moment out of time and say why were you not here or there. I never denied President Bush received the Guitar - a Charity event that morning. Once reports came in telling of the the devastation he was on Air Force One back to Crawford then back to Washington. Just the fact you would even bring that up in regards to his "lack of leadership" ....now ill roll my eyes again.

Was I watching this evening on the news that state official refused to give all authority over to Fema which has caused many delays and has hampered efforts even further . Just another reason to know that personal responsibility must account for something. Can't count on the government in every aspect of our lives.....IF or when all the facts come out in this case, I am sure we can all come to a well thought out conclusion on what needs to be done. :notsure:
Ps ...your comments about Micheal Moore ScubaDoo were right on. Very well thought and provacative.

 

[lovethesea]

I am still not clear on the evacuation/bus thing. I have been in many hurricane evacuation in my life. Any you don't have to tell me twice to get outta dodge. Especially if I'm staring down the business end of a Cat 5. My question has been for almost 2 weeks now....why did they wait until Sunday to mandate the evac??? I personally watched the Mayor hem a haw on Saturday about it. My gosh, the Pres. had already signed disaster papers on Friday and pleaded with people not to mess around. Of course if you wait until the day before the storm is going to hit, you will clog streets and highways, no matter the flow!
Those busses would have been able to get many folks out Friday PM and Sat and Sund.(and NOT to the dome or convention center....death traps IMO)
I hope this tragedy changes the face of mandatory evacuations. The states and local gov must take responibility for their citizens by drilling the orders/routes/zones etc into their people. Heck, I have had tornado drills since I was a little kid, even my company has regular "disaster" drills.
The first words out of Jeb Bush mouth at the first sign of the first hurrincane this season was "well folks.....here we go again.....you know the drill" and he proceeded to tell the state the status of the hurricane and what to do.
I personally think FEMA should not be under the orders of Homeland Security. Too much red tape.

 

[d0ch0liday]

Originally Posted by reefraff
God forbid a rational and honest person speak the truth and not just bash Bush. I am a right leaning independant but these extremists that are taking over the Democrat party are turning me into a Party line Republican.

WoW........I Honestly do not know how this country is going to make it another 50 years with a thought process like that........ i like it when you say "extremist taking over the democrat party".........but yet the party that your "turning" to thinks that we should teach God's version of creation right along side evolution in science class's.......hmmmmmm.....personally i think that is kind of extreme as well as ignorant....

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by D0cH0liday
WoW........I Honestly do not know how this country is going to make it another 50 years with a thought process like that........ i like it when you say "extremist taking over the democrat party".........but yet the party that your "turning" to thinks that we should teach God's version of creation right along side evolution in science class's.......hmmmmmm.....personally i think that is kind of extreme as well as ignorant....
Are you smart enough to be familiar with the term "Theory of evolution"? Why should a unproven "theory" be taught as fact? For all I know God came down in his spaceship and deposited a couple of beings called Adam and Eve that evolved into humans. I am at least willing to consider other ideas.
And you call me ignorant.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by lovethesea
I am still not clear on the evacuation/bus thing. I have been in many hurricane evacuation in my life. Any you don't have to tell me twice to get outta dodge. Especially if I'm staring down the business end of a Cat 5. My question has been for almost 2 weeks now....why did they wait until Sunday to mandate the evac??? I personally watched the Mayor hem a haw on Saturday about it. My gosh, the Pres. had already signed disaster papers on Friday and pleaded with people not to mess around. Of course if you wait until the day before the storm is going to hit, you will clog streets and highways, no matter the flow!
Those busses would have been able to get many folks out Friday PM and Sat and Sund.(and NOT to the dome or convention center....death traps IMO)
I hope this tragedy changes the face of mandatory evacuations. The states and local gov must take responibility for their citizens by drilling the orders/routes/zones etc into their people. Heck, I have had tornado drills since I was a little kid, even my company has regular "disaster" drills.
The first words out of Jeb Bush mouth at the first sign of the first hurrincane this season was "well folks.....here we go again.....you know the drill" and he proceeded to tell the state the status of the hurricane and what to do.
I personally think FEMA should not be under the orders of Homeland Security. Too much red tape.

Unfortunately....ALL computer models predicted this down to the 100K plus citizens stuck for various reasons. . This area is quite different from other coastal areas. Most in immediate danger or those exposed to the strorm suge. THis will often impact those communities along the coast where the storm surge wil impact. These areas are rarely below sea level allowing some acceptable shelters away from the coastal surge. In the New Orleans area, there are no safe shelters with the exception of the two facilities utilized wiht a Cat 5 storm heading in. High rise building or unsafe due to glass windows, etc. Sorry to say but many knew not many folks would leave on a Friday due to the reasons I have previously explained. I am not saying you are incorrect...just stating why not many would have left.
The only other area I can think of that is almost as vulnerable is Long Island New York.. New York can be impacted with a hurricane.
Statistics show that FL will get about 39% of all landfalling US hurricanes....
We all have differing opinions as to leadership. Perhaps Bush did not realize the nature of the castastrophe given the Memo prepared by Brown to Chertoff on AUGUST 29. I encourage all to read that memo and it's attachments.
I now beleive the President placed his faith on those that head specific agencies to do their jobs. He let his cards show by publicly expressing his initial "disappointment ". As president you cannot micromanage everything...but they are his selections.
Has Michael Moore visited the Astrodome yet?

 

[tuningvis]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
Has Michael Moore visited the Astrodome yet?

Has bush?

 

[jer4916]

idk, i just browsed over the thread....lots of good lots of bad...lots of arguements...but remember guys president bush is an idiot (dispite i voted for him to keep kerry out) also remember that M. Moore is just as much an idiot...just from a different side. anyways im heading down with the red cross in three days....can anyone think of any random items that i should bring with me?
~chris

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by tuningvis
Has bush?
Yes, 41 visited

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by tuningvis
Has bush?
I would think the self-appointed spokesperson for African Americans in New Orleans would have been one of the first to visit the Astrodome since he is so caring . In his letter to the Prez he plays the race card. Other impacted areas in the region are predominantly white but he ignores this Two of the many areas Slidell and St bernard Parish...where the fedral response was even slower. Of course, if he considered this it would make his letter"pointless".
Even Sean Penn showed up in NO and was actually in that toxic water.
Where' s Michael? Living proof that MOORE is LESS.
JMO

 

[d0ch0liday]

Originally Posted by reefraff
Are you smart enough to be familiar with the term "Theory of evolution"? Why should a unproven "theory" be taught as fact? For all I know God came down in his spaceship and deposited a couple of beings called Adam and Eve that evolved into humans. I am at least willing to consider other ideas.
And you call me ignorant.

Next your going to be tellin me that i am ignorant for thinkng that street sweepers and automatic glocks should be illegal to carry.....(which they were until w bush had a bright idea.....to allow the bill to slip through his hands after 1000's of officers from around the country pleaded with him to disallow this from happening do to the fear of comon crimnals being able to pick them up like jolly rancher's at your local drug store...when cops can not even carry them.....but thats a whole other issue) or maybe you will tell me that homosexuals are the reason why aids is running rapid and taking many peoples lives and they should be oppressed for another 50 years..... or you could just say "i think religion is good with politics because i am open to new ideas" because religion and politics is such a good mix......
that my friend is ignorantance..... but if you want ignorance from me here's an idea why dont you thake the plumbing off you aquarium connect it to the exhaust on your car, run it to the window of your passenger side of you car, shut the gargage door and turn the ignition on....
i also have a "theory". Because it has not been proven by scientific law.......i call it "D0cH0lidays Carbon monoxide theory"
its goes sumthin like this
have you wife or friend call the cops for you and we will see how long it takes for those local knee slappin boys of yours to find you in good old montana........
yee ha!