I think I am going to throw up.

[darthtang aw]

 
No. I do believe in free trade in the strictest sense though. I you are a country that is going to put tariffs on our goods I believe we should reciprocate. 
I also believe that with the problems we are in now we need to do a few things to get ourselves back to square 1.
In 2009 we spent about $270 billion in foreign aid. I would tell each and every country we are stopping all aid to them until we balance our budget.
In 2007 we spent $741 billion in military spending. That is 1/3 of the total worlds expenditure. The next closest was China at $380 billion. Looks like we could cut ours in half at least and I would say even more if we would shut down most if not all of our military bases in other countries. I will never understand this anyway. What do think we would tell the oh I don't know the Germans, Italians, Saudi Arabians if they wanted to put military bases in our country? I have a feeling I know.
The US department of Health Education and Welfare was established in 1953. I wonder how the industrial revolution was able to happen without the federal government intervening until then.How were we able to become the most wealthy country in the world up until then. Spending in 2010 about $100 billion. Get the fed out of it and let the states or even the market take care of education.
The department of agriculture about $140 billion. For what, to pay subsidies for farmers not to grow things?
Social Security admin about $760 billion. I would also like to see this abolished. Could be done fairly easily without causing a lot of pain. Say anyone 50 plus years of age still gets social security when they retire. Anyone 30-50 would have what they have paid in returned to them in the form of federal tax credits until they use it up. People under 30 you don't have to pay in and use the funds to create your own IRA or whatever savings you want to do for yourself.
There is so much more, but you get the idea.
I won't even get into how much of the above is not an enumerated power of the feds for now. But you get the idea. We don't have they money and we continue to build the debt at $1.4 trillion per year not including the interest on the debt.
 
So am I an isolationist, kind of for the time being until we get our own house in order.
 
 
I understand the money aspect...and I see where you are coming from. A few points that play into and are affected by your decisions. Ok we close our bases. Cut our costs...great....but wait...now we have to get permission to land in other countries and use their bases when we need to. But wait...they wont allow this as they are now pissed because we no longer contribute foreign aid.
So now we have to do a dday style invasion (granted not that degree due to tech) and risk huge casualties in military lives to do anything around the world.
How easy would the invasion of iraq been without our bases. In kuwait. How easy would this libya situation be wigthout our base in saudi arabia....what will russia do along the old ussr western border without our european bases. What would north korea do without our japanese and south korean bases? How would the actions of all this affect the global market and inreturn our own economy as well as our national debt?
No more foreign aid? Japan just had a huge disaster.....we owe them money...so the decide to cash in their debt we owe...oops.
I wish people would think through these thoughts a bit more and think how these actions could compound.
S.S. I could get behind...but what do you with the many idiots that don't save/ much and suddennly have no where or nothing? A city over run by the homeless and sickly is a city with no tourism.

 

[spanko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373203
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/20#post_3373190
No. I do believe in free trade in the strictest sense though. I you are a country that is going to put tariffs on our goods I believe we should reciprocate.
I also believe that with the problems we are in now we need to do a few things to get ourselves back to square 1.
In 2009 we spent about $270 billion in foreign aid. I would tell each and every country we are stopping all aid to them until we balance our budget.
In 2007 we spent $741 billion in military spending. That is 1/3 of the total worlds expenditure. The next closest was China at $380 billion. Looks like we could cut ours in half at least and I would say even more if we would shut down most if not all of our military bases in other countries. I will never understand this anyway. What do think we would tell the oh I don't know the Germans, Italians, Saudi Arabians if they wanted to put military bases in our country? I have a feeling I know.
The US department of Health Education and Welfare was established in 1953. I wonder how the industrial revolution was able to happen without the federal government intervening until then.How were we able to become the most wealthy country in the world up until then. Spending in 2010 about $100 billion. Get the fed out of it and let the states or even the market take care of education.
The department of agriculture about $140 billion. For what, to pay subsidies for farmers not to grow things?
Social Security admin about $760 billion. I would also like to see this abolished. Could be done fairly easily without causing a lot of pain. Say anyone 50 plus years of age still gets social security when they retire. Anyone 30-50 would have what they have paid in returned to them in the form of federal tax credits until they use it up. People under 30 you don't have to pay in and use the funds to create your own IRA or whatever savings you want to do for yourself.
There is so much more, but you get the idea.
I won't even get into how much of the above is not an enumerated power of the feds for now. But you get the idea. We don't have they money and we continue to build the debt at $1.4 trillion per year not including the interest on the debt.
So am I an isolationist, kind of for the time being until we get our own house in order.
I understand the money aspect...and I see where you are coming from. A few points that play into and are affected by your decisions. Ok we close our bases. Cut our costs...great....but wait...now we have to get permission to land in other countries and use their bases when we need to. But wait...they wont allow this as they are now pissed because we no longer contribute foreign aid. At what time would we need this unless there is an eminent danger to the US or it's interests, at which point we would need to do something. Otherwise shut down the democrat and republican war machine and become a nation of peace, prosperity and liberty.
So now we have to do a dday style invasion (granted not that degree due to tech) and risk huge casualties in military lives to do anything around the world. See above.
How easy would the invasion of Iraq been without our bases. In Kuwait. How easy would this Libya situation be without our base in Saudi Arabia....what will Russia do along the old USSR western border without our European bases. What would north Korea do without our Japanese and south Korean bases? How would the actions of all this affect the global market and in return our own economy as well as our national debt? Again see the above answer.Not our responsibility to be in Iraq, Kuwait, Libya etc. etc.
No more foreign aid? Japan just had a huge disaster.....we owe them money...so the decide to cash in their debt we owe...oops. I said until we balance our budget, then we can reevaluate what we can or even want to do with aid. Balancing our budget in my mind means paying off the countries we have borrowed from.
I wish people would think through these thoughts a bit more and think how these actions could compound. Believe me sir I am thinking them through.
S.S. I could get behind...but what do you with the many idiots that don't save/ much and suddenly have no where or nothing? A city over run by the homeless and sickly is a city with no tourism. Again, it is not our responsibility. How was this handled in the past? It was handled by the goodness of the people of the United States giving of their own accord, not through the government bureaucrats. Religous organizations. Charitable organizations.

 

[reefraff]

I think people fail to understand the true cost of cheap products. My mom had a toaster that her mom bought while mom was still in high school. It finally died after about 50 years. You pay more for built in usa but if you spend even more to get built in the USA quality it is less in the long run. Anyone else old enough to remember fix it shops where people would take the small household appliances to be repaired or the TV repair shops? Now if the tv dies or the blender goes on the fritz you toss it and buy another.

 

[mantisman51]

I have seen the error of my logic. We are better off borrowing money from our enemies and depending on our enemies to continue floating our debt, which is caused by our loss of manufacturing. A much better solution than paying more for American products and getting paid more to make those products because the greedy multinationals will be forced to pay us instead of third world slave labor. Our economy will continue to deteriorate until we can no longer keep borrowing to pay for the cheaper products, but we will pay less for the cr@p until our economy implodes. I got it now. It all makes sense.

 

[darthtang aw]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373215
I think people fail to understand the true cost of cheap products. My mom had a toaster that her mom bought while mom was still in high school. It finally died after about 50 years. You pay more for built in usa but if you spend even more to get built in the USA quality it is less in the long run. Anyone else old enough to remember fix it shops where people would take the small household appliances to be repaired or the TV repair shops? Now if the tv dies or the blender goes on the fritz you toss it and buy another.
True, to an extent. But a lot of manufacturing isn't products such as that. Those items I would be willing to pay more IF they were made better. But when the Japanese automobile outlasts the American automobile...your analogy doesn't fit. Especially when the Japanese auto maker will give the consumer a better warranty.

 

[darthtang aw]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373227
I have seen the error of my logic. We are better off borrowing money from our enemies and depending on our enemies to continue floating our debt, which is caused by our loss of manufacturing. A much better solution than paying more for American products and getting paid more to make those products because the greedy multinationals will be forced to pay us instead of third world slave labor. Our economy will continue to deteriorate until we can no longer keep borrowing to pay for the cheaper products, but we will pay less for the cr@p until our economy implodes. I got it now. It all makes sense.
Our debt has very little to do with american made products and everything to do with entitlement.

 

[darthtang aw]

Spanko...how are you going erase 70 years of policy without collapsing our economy. You don't realize how much our economy is intertwined globally do you? What is to stop other countries from raising the taxes on our exports? We are the richest most prosperous nation in the world....if we don't prevent other countries with our military from invading other countries and gaining more money/territory/resources we will lose that status. We ignored World war 2.....look at the cost of that ignorance to our nation. not just in monetary but in lives.....You would financially collapse us.....period.
NATO would disband.
You want to balance the budget, you have to cut entitlements.
In your real life, do you ignore your neighbors? Do you not help them out if they need it?

 

[spanko]

I have not said to withdraw completely forever. I am saying that things are not right now and we cannot correct them maintaining the course we are on. There are countries now that tax our imports with a greater rate than we do theirs and we continue to do business with them, why? We were attacked in WWII and should have been in the fight. We were attacked by the folks hiding out in Afghanistan and should go to get them.
NATO may or not disband I can't say with the conviction you have. I agree with the entitlement cuts.
In real life I do not ignore my neighbors but that is my choice. I also choose not to supply bombs ammunition weapons to a group of rebels in Libya because I don't know who the hell they are, but can I stop it? No because the RepublicanDemocratUNNato war machine marches on. Has any of the countries in the Middle east ever had peace. Not to my knowledge, at least not for any length of time. What makes us thing that we can alter that?
Did the Japanese - Haitians - Philippinos have humanitarian problems that need to be dealt with? You bettcha but that is what the world has organizations like the Red Cross for, where people that have can donate to people that don't OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

 

[reefraff]

The only way for us to fix what is wrong is to elect people who don't care about being re elected. Taxes are going to have to be raised and government giveaways cut. Hardly a formula for electorial success in this day and age.

 

[darthtang aw]

I have not said to withdraw completely forever. I am saying that things are not right now and we cannot correct them maintaining the course we are on. There are countries now that tax our imports with a greater rate than we do theirs and we continue to do business with them, why? We were attacked in WWII and should have been in the fight. We were attacked by the folks hiding out in Afghanistan and should go to get them.
NATO may or not disband I can't say with the conviction you have. I agree with the entitlement cuts.
In real life I do not ignore my neighbors but that is my choice. I also choose not to supply bombs ammunition weapons to a group of rebels in Libya because I don't know who the hell they are, but can I stop it? No because the RepublicanDemocratUNNato war machine marches on. Has any of the countries in the Middle east ever had peace. Not to my knowledge, at least not for any length of time. What makes us thing that we can alter that?
Did the Japanese - Haitians - Philippinos have humanitarian problems that need to be dealt with? You bettcha but that is what the world has organizations like the Red Cross for, where people that have can donate to people that don't OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.
For how long. Till our debt is paid off? Just till our budget is balanced....the closure of our bases would hinder retalitory action. Most of our flight missions in the middle east are out of our bases in afghanistan, iraq, saudi arabia, turkey, and kuwait. If we close those bases you increas the cost to get supplys into the areas we need them. If we shutdown our bases in south korea kimjon will invade...we have him in check now. An increase in territory/power to him would just increas his capacity to gain nukes. Then our other ally in japan would be in greater jeapordy...without our bases there he could invade japan cause the world economy problems...not to mention cause americans great economic loss:flame:
Nevermind...I can not discuss this with someone that can not grasp the complexity of the situation our policies have caused over the last 70 years....needless to say...your actions would plunge us into a depression the likes never seen...this last recession would seem like economic prosperity...we can no longer view our economy as local...it is global...and your foreign policy would crqsh it.
Under your administration....the price of gas alone would reach levels higher than europe forf a period of 5 to 7 years at the shortest.. oil makes the world go round........you don't want to import....or you want to incredas the taxes on imports....you go right ahead....and when u.s. manufactures shut down or start laying off because transportation cost are ridiculous...you have just caused the depression...because the misguided actions of reversing our global policy for just a few short years.
Clinton and congress balanced the budget without diing what you would do......why do you think that was?

 

[darthtang aw]

The only way for us to fix what is wrong is to elect people who don't care about being re elected. Taxes are going to have to be raised and government giveaways cut. Hardly a formula for electorial success in this day and age.

See president clinton and congress.
Incidentally the government shutdown has been avoided due to 60 billion in cuts from the 3 trillion dollar budget.......way to go guys.....sure took care of the budget problems.

 

[stdreb27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373215
I think people fail to understand the true cost of cheap products. My mom had a toaster that her mom bought while mom was still in high school. It finally died after about 50 years. You pay more for built in usa but if you spend even more to get built in the USA quality it is less in the long run. Anyone else old enough to remember fix it shops where people would take the small household appliances to be repaired or the TV repair shops? Now if the tv dies or the blender goes on the fritz you toss it and buy another.
But the american consumer has made a choice. We'd rather have a crappy toaster, coffee maker, and oven. Then a built to last toaster, and wait on the coffee maker and oven. See walmarts success....
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373227
I have seen the error of my logic. We are better off borrowing money from our enemies and depending on our enemies to continue floating our debt, which is caused by our loss of manufacturing. A much better solution than paying more for American products and getting paid more to make those products because the greedy multinationals will be forced to pay us instead of third world slave labor. Our economy will continue to deteriorate until we can no longer keep borrowing to pay for the cheaper products, but we will pay less for the cr@p until our economy implodes. I got it now. It all makes sense.
see below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373337
Our debt has very little to do with american made products and everything to do with entitlement.
Absolutely, a trade imbalance, has very little to do with a budget deficit. You know, just to float this idea out there, but monetarily (even adjusted for inflation) we manufacture as much as we every have. ESPECIALLY When quality trumps costs. We just don't make POS toasters, anymore.
Another idea for you to consider, back in the industrial revolution, adjusted for inflation, the average manufacturers pay was under 15k. When we start playing union, and demanding these rediculous wages, then all those jobs, went to mexico, then china....I
I'm working on a project now, where manufacturer one has the inside track, all the political support in the world. But they lost the job, because the labor costs were prohibitively expensive. We're talking millions of man hours...

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373356
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373349
I have not said to withdraw completely forever. I am saying that things are not right now and we cannot correct them maintaining the course we are on. There are countries now that tax our imports with a greater rate than we do theirs and we continue to do business with them, why? We were attacked in WWII and should have been in the fight. We were attacked by the folks hiding out in Afghanistan and should go to get them.
NATO may or not disband I can't say with the conviction you have. I agree with the entitlement cuts.
In real life I do not ignore my neighbors but that is my choice. I also choose not to supply bombs ammunition weapons to a group of rebels in Libya because I don't know who the hell they are, but can I stop it? No because the RepublicanDemocratUNNato war machine marches on. Has any of the countries in the Middle east ever had peace. Not to my knowledge, at least not for any length of time. What makes us thing that we can alter that?
Did the Japanese - Haitians - Philippinos have humanitarian problems that need to be dealt with? You bettcha but that is what the world has organizations like the Red Cross for, where people that have can donate to people that don't OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.
For how long. Till our debt is paid off? Just till our budget is balanced....the closure of our bases would hinder retalitory action. Most of our flight missions in the middle east are out of our bases in afghanistan, iraq, saudi arabia, turkey, and kuwait. If we close those bases you increas the cost to get supplys into the areas we need them. If we shutdown our bases in south korea kimjon will invade...we have him in check now. An increase in territory/power to him would just increas his capacity to gain nukes. Then our other ally in japan would be in greater jeapordy...without our bases there he could invade japan cause the world economy problems...not to mention cause americans great economic loss:flame:
Nevermind...I can not discuss this with someone that can not grasp the complexity of the situation our policies have caused over the last 70 years....needless to say...your actions would plunge us into a depression the likes never seen...this last recession would seem like economic prosperity...we can no longer view our economy as local...it is global...and your foreign policy would crqsh it.
Under your administration....the price of gas alone would reach levels higher than europe forf a period of 5 to 7 years at the shortest.. oil makes the world go round........you don't want to import....or you want to incredas the taxes on imports....you go right ahead....and when u.s. manufactures shut down or start laying off because transportation cost are ridiculous...you have just caused the depression...because the misguided actions of reversing our global policy for just a few short years.
Clinton and congress balanced the budget without diing what you would do......why do you think that was?
Why do we need bases in the Middle East? You say "in case we need them". Need them for what? Is it your contention that it's the US's responsibility to "keep the peace" in that region until the Dawn Of Time? The three largest expenditures we have in this country are Medicare, Social Security, and the Military. That's where the bulk of annual budget goes. Until you reduce or remove one or all of those three, you'll never be able to put a dent in the overall deficit. Which of the three are most expendable? Why can't we protect our borders from our own home turf? If Kimjon wanted to invade South Korea, he'll do it with or without our presence. You willing to be drug back into another Korean War?

 

[darthtang aw]

Why do we need bases in the Middle East?  You say "in case we need them".  Need them for what?  Is it your contention that it's the US's responsibility to "keep the peace" in that region until the Dawn Of Time?  The three largest expenditures we have in this country are Medicare, Social Security, and the Military.  That's where the bulk of annual budget goes.  Until you reduce or remove one or all of those three, you'll never be able to put a dent in the overall deficit.  Which of the three are most expendable?  Why can't we protect our borders from our own home turf?  If Kimjon wanted to invade South Korea, he'll do it with or without our presence.  You willing to be drug back into another Korean War?
 
As long as our economy relies on that region (whether you like it or not) yes. Much of our economy relies on resources from that area. What does instability in that Region do to our costs?

 

[spanko]

Well okay then. I guess you have all of the reasons why the things I am trying to discuss with you will not work because ........... hmmmmmm........ I guess because you are Darth(nobody know anything but me and I will just let the status quo bankrupt us....na na na na boo boo) Tang. Must be nice to know everything and resort to personal attacks when people don't see your way.
well sir I now say to you GFY if all you want to do is preach and not give any credence to other ideas and maybe try to mold them into something that can work.
Spanko(Thanks for the ???discussion???)Henry

 

[mantisman51]

The taxes from the wages earned(or NOT earned) by millions of Americans working to build products and corporations paying taxes on those products have little to do with the deficit? The Limbaugh institute is putting out quality thinkers, I guess.

 

[darthtang aw]

Well okay then. I guess you have all of the reasons why the things I am trying to discuss with you will not work because ........... hmmmmmm........ I guess because you are Darth(nobody know anything but me and I will just let the status quo bankrupt us....na na na na boo boo) Tang. Must be nice to know everything and resort to personal attacks when people don't see your way.

well sir I now say to you GFY if all you want to do is preach and not give any credence to other ideas and maybe try to mold them into something that can work.

Spanko(Thanks for the ???discussion???)Henry
Personal attacks? What the hell are you talking about? I haven't even used my signature much in the discussion.
I agreed with you on social security did I not? I just asked what happens to those that don't plan. You responded and I accepted that. I have stated the problem is entitlement spending. What more do you want me to say about it. I just disagree with removing ourselves from the global arena, even temporarily. I just see the huge potential to cost us more through other means in the long run.
Darth (panty twister) Tang

 

[spanko]

"Nevermind...I can not discuss this with someone that can not grasp the complexity of the situation our policies have caused over the last 70 years....needless to say...your actions would plunge us into a depression the likes never seen"
Seems pretty personal to me. IDK.
Spanko (I don't wear panties) Henry

 

[darthtang aw]

The taxes from the wages earned(or NOT earned) by millions of Americans working to build products and corporations paying taxes on those products have little to do with the deficit? The Limbaugh institute is putting out quality thinkers, I guess.
In 2003 to 2007, the government took in more many in tax revenue than ever before. Today we have more many mafacturing jobs and exporting more than during that period and the fed is taking in less tax revenue. Your point doesn't hold water. Keep in mind my retail business carries 85% made in america products. My biggest obstacles with customers is the higher price.......not competition...but the price of a higher quality product tends to freak the mqjority of people out. The percent of people willing to pay a higher price for better quality product isn't as big as you would think.

 

[stdreb27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/384770/i-think-i-am-going-to-throw-up/40#post_3373408
The taxes from the wages earned(or NOT earned) by millions of Americans working to build products and corporations paying taxes on those products have little to do with the deficit? The Limbaugh institute is putting out quality thinkers, I guess.
Dude, it is simple supply and demand. Price (taxes) an item (living/working) too high and you won't make any sales. And your revenue will actually go down. Think about it.
Say I have 50 Jeeps, say I'm selling them for $40,000. I'm not going a dang one of them, My revenue will be 0.
Say I price them at 30,000. I might find 10 suckers. and I bring in $300,000.
But say I price them at 20,000 and sell 50 of them. I'd bring in $1,000,000.
It is really that simply of a base idea.
The actual issue is what the the price, where I'll make the most money. Up to a point, raising price will increase revenue, bigger margins will result in more $$. However, It will also peel off more customers. Eventually you'd price your product high enough, where you start loosing money because not enough people want to buy. And THAT is where this idea of lower taxes will increase revenues....