Is a value added tax coming our way?

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3263910
Found this:
First, what the United States Supreme Court said. What the United States Supreme Court held in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court (2004) 542 U.S. 177, was that a state could make it a crime for a person to refuse to identify himself (i.e., tell the officer his name and address) when lawfully detained for criminal activity. Note that the Supreme Court did NOT say that any kind of identification papers could be required, nor did they say that police officers could ordinarily arrest someone for refusing to identify himself absent a state law permitting that arrest. There is no law in the United States requiring everybody to carry ID, at least not yet.
There is NO law in California requiring anybody to carry identification. There is no law making it illegal for anyone (even someone lawfully detained) to fail to have identification papers or to refuse to identify himself (there was such a law, which was declared unconstitutional). Thus, Hiibel is of no effect in California, since there is no comparable law there. (It is, however, a crime to give a FALSE identification.)
A person CANNOT be arrested just for failing to identify himself or failing to have ID, even with a lawful detention. It is NOT interfering with an officer. The only effect of not having ID occurs if a police officer has probable cause to believe an arrestee has committed a criminal offense. A police officer who could otherwise give an arrestee a citation to appear would instead take the person into custody to appear before a magistrate. But this is ONLY if the officer has probable cause to believe the person has committed a crime--NOT just because the person did not have ID.
Of course, one must have identification in his or her possession when driving, and a police officer obviously can demand to see a drivers license from any driver lawfully detained.
Source(s):
30+ years as a criminal defense attorney
Anytime you come in contact with law enforcement they can demand you show reasonable proof of your identity. If you were out jogging and jaywalked while doing so you better be able to assure the cop giving you the ticket of your indentity.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3263921
Most cops use this wonderful tool called common sense. The law says they must have probable cause. Someone out jogging with no ID isn't probable cause.
That's not the argument I'm making. Before this law was passed, if a Hispanic was walking around minding their own business in downtown Phoenix, and a cop stopped him for any reason, the only information he would have to provide to the cop is his name and address. He wasn't required to show any proof of ID. With this new law, in the exact same scenario above, a cop now has the right to ask a Hispanic for some form of ID, whether the person is illegal or not. If that same person were white, the cop would still only have the authority to ask for name/address. I guarantee you he wouldn't be asking the guy to show proper ID to prove he was a legal US resident.
 

fishtaco

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3263927
You mean one instance of him forwarding an E-mail dealing with media bias that turned out to be from a white suprimacist group? How is that "keeping company"?
If you are going to use your standard Obama is a confirmed Terrorist (Bill Ayers) and Communist radical (I shought out the Marxist professors)

The fact is law abiding residents of Arizona are being terrorized by the criminal element coming across the border, their public services are stretched to the limit by those with no right to be in the country and something needs to be done. It doesn't matter who wrote the bill nor their motivation for doing so.
I've got no problems holding Obama to the same standard or you or myself and I know there is a serious problem in Arizona. But I disagree that it does not matter who wrote the bill or their motivation for doing so. Obama and congress does not want to go to war with the drug runners and human trafficers, make no mistake I do. I would be all for giving the DEA and Border Patrol some predator drones and if they see you with a weapon along the border, hey your going to have a very bad day or hiring some special forces straight from the service to work for these agencies, I would even be happy with some black ops across the border which is not very politically correct but hey that is just me who again today is being accused of being a leftie.

Fishtaco (we HAD a house with some druggies in it in my town, for some reason they decided to move on)
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3263931
Anytime you come in contact with law enforcement they can demand you show reasonable proof of your identity. If you were out jogging and jaywalked while doing so you better be able to assure the cop giving you the ticket of your indentity.
The Supreme Court ruling states otherwise. So does the Texas Penal Code.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3263935
I've got no problems holding Obama to the same standard or you or myself and I know there is a serious problem in Arizona. But I disagree that it does not matter who wrote the bill or their motivation for doing so. Obama and congress does not want to go to war with the drug runners and human trafficers, make no mistake I do. I would be all for giving the DEA and Border Patrol some predator drones and if they see you with a weapon along the border, hey your going to have a very bad day or hiring some special forces straight from the service to work for these agencies, I would even be happy with some black ops across the border which is not very politically correct but hey that is just me who again today is being accused of being a leftie.

Fishtaco (we HAD a house with some druggies in it in my town, for some reason they decided to move on)
Just read an article in my local paper today that the Feds are shipping Predator Drones to Texas as we speak:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/sta..._to_Texas.html
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3263937
The Supreme Court ruling states otherwise. So does the Texas Penal Code.
I am not talking about having ID. I am talking about demonstrating you are who you say you are. Giving name address and birth date. They will run your information and it better match up. If not you will be arrested.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3263940
Just read an article in my local paper today that the Feds are shipping Predator Drones to Texas as we speak:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/sta..._to_Texas.html
If you want to get rid of the roaches you gotta clean the kitchen. Sure we have to lock down the border but we have also got to cut off the reason most of the people are coming here, jobs and public services. If we can stem the flow of people just looking to better their lot in life it will give us the ability to concenrate on the real dirtbags.
 

fishtaco

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3263945
If you want to get rid of the roaches you gotta clean the kitchen. Sure we have to lock down the border but we have also got to cut off the reason most of the people are coming here, jobs and public services. If we can stem the flow of people just looking to better their lot in life it will give us the ability to concenrate on the real dirtbags.
I agree, let pass some laws that allows for the state to confiscate everything owned by people who employ illegals just like they do for people who deal drugs, no second chances or fines, just drop the hammer on the first offense and take every last cent they have and maybe a couple years jail time on top of that.
Fishtaco(better get ready to mow your own dang lawn) LOL
 

reefraff

Active Member
There has been more than one report of the Mexican military or at least people using their equipment and uniforms crossing into the US. Armed predator would probably put an end to that stuff.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3263948
I agree, let pass some laws that allows for the state to confiscate everything owned by people who employ illegals just like they do for people who deal drugs, no second chances or fines, just drop the hammer on the first offense and take every last cent they have and maybe a couple years jail time on top of that.
Fishtaco(better get ready to mow your own dang lawn) LOL
I agree to a point but just like the drug confiscations isn't the solution. In those cases you are considered guilty until proven innocent. You gotta make sure the employer is knowingly hiring illegals. Swift got nailed a few years ago where they had hundreds working for them. Not a whole lot of doubt they were looking the other way but I think if a couple sneek through the cracks there should be a different level of punishment. I would have liked to have seen the feds take the next 10 years of Swifts profits for what they did. Hows that for incentive to do the right thing?
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3263935
I've got no problems holding Obama to the same standard or you or myself and I know there is a serious problem in Arizona. But I disagree that it does not matter who wrote the bill or their motivation for doing so. Obama and congress does not want to go to war with the drug runners and human trafficers, make no mistake I do. I would be all for giving the DEA and Border Patrol some predator drones and if they see you with a weapon along the border, hey your going to have a very bad day or hiring some special forces straight from the service to work for these agencies, I would even be happy with some black ops across the border which is not very politically correct but hey that is just me who again today is being accused of being a leftie.

Fishtaco (we HAD a house with some druggies in it in my town, for some reason they decided to move on)
*scratches head* have a problem with this law, but no problem government having military patrol them? Having military enforcing domestic law is kind of unconstitutional...
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3263933
That's not the argument I'm making. Before this law was passed, if a Hispanic was walking around minding their own business in downtown Phoenix, and a cop stopped him for any reason, the only information he would have to provide to the cop is his name and address. He wasn't required to show any proof of ID. With this new law, in the exact same scenario above, a cop now has the right to ask a Hispanic for some form of ID, whether the person is illegal or not. If that same person were white, the cop would still only have the authority to ask for name/address. I guarantee you he wouldn't be asking the guy to show proper ID to prove he was a legal US resident.
I have to show my DL to buy a beer, I don't see the problem... (slight joking jab with relavent commentary) That is government mandated...
Originally Posted by Fishtaco

http:///forum/post/3263946
That is a step forward, but not having them armed is epic failure. If we can pull the trigger on people in Pakistan we sure as heck can do it here.
Fishtaco
lol, don't card them just shoot em! brilliant
 

fishtaco

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3263958
*scratches head* have a problem with this law, but no problem government having military patrol them? Having military enforcing domestic law is kind of unconstitutional...
I have to show my DL to buy a beer, I don't see the problem... (slight joking jab with relavent commentary) That is government mandated...
lol, don't card them just shoot em! brilliant
Where did I say the military should be involved because I did not and yes if you are seen carrying a gun within lets say a mile of either side of the border, then that is your problem. Everyone one is claiming this is an emergency so let's treat it like one. They can close off places like the infamous Area 51 with an extremely effective electronic fence, why can't we do it on the border? We also need to work much harder on working to make Mexico a better place to live even though it is not our job, it seems like Iraq is worth it and justified, why not one of our neighbors. The Mexican citizens have gotten a raw deal since the Spanish set foot in the country and started looting it, then the French, then crooked government, now the drug cartels and a good life for these people is leaving their homes and working at the worst jobs for the lowest wages? There has to be a better answer than what Arizona has done. I look at the Martin Luther Jr. problem, the birther bill, the open carry circus and now this and think Arizona is pretty low on my list of states that I would move to.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3263972
Where did I say the military should be involved because I did not and yes if you are seen carrying a gun within lets say a mile of either side of the border, then that is your problem. Everyone one is claiming this is an emergency so let's treat it like one. They can close off places like the infamous Area 51 with an extremely effective electronic fence, why can't we do it on the border? We also need to work much harder on working to make Mexico a better place to live even though it is not our job, it seems like Iraq is worth it and justified, why not one of our neighbors. The Mexican citizens have gotten a raw deal since the Spanish set foot in the country and started looting it, then the French, then crooked government, now the drug cartels and a good life for these people is leaving their homes and working at the worst jobs for the lowest wages? There has to be a better answer than what Arizona has done. I look at the Martin Luther Jr. problem, the birther bill, the open carry circus and now this and think Arizona is pretty low on my list of states that I would move to.

oh you're right I missread it...
Last I checked carrying a gun is a constitutional right... not a get shot by a predator drone offense...
So do you support requiring a photo ID for voting?
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3263972
Where did I say the military should be involved because I did not and yes if you are seen carrying a gun within lets say a mile of either side of the border, then that is your problem. Everyone one is claiming this is an emergency so let's treat it like one. They can close off places like the infamous Area 51 with an extremely effective electronic fence, why can't we do it on the border? We also need to work much harder on working to make Mexico a better place to live even though it is not our job, it seems like Iraq is worth it and justified, why not one of our neighbors. The Mexican citizens have gotten a raw deal since the Spanish set foot in the country and started looting it, then the French, then crooked government, now the drug cartels and a good life for these people is leaving their homes and working at the worst jobs for the lowest wages? There has to be a better answer than what Arizona has done. I look at the Martin Luther Jr. problem, the birther bill, the open carry circus and now this and think Arizona is pretty low on my list of states that I would move to.

US Corporations want to keep Mexico down. Over half of the Fortune 500 companies that have manufacturing processes have factories in Mexico. My neighbor works for a company who has manufacturing plants in every Mexico border town in Texas - Acuna, Piedras Negras, Juarez, and also Torreon, Puebla, and Monterrey. They pay on an average $8/DAY for the line workers. They would go out of business if they had to make their products in the US, or even in China (import/export costs would offset the low wages).
Why not electrical fences ? $$$$$$. How much have they already spent on these 8 foot walls they put in Arizona and Texas? Just saw this article today about a major pot bust in ARIZONA, where they had special ramps on the trucks to go OVER the fancy new border fence...
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...eweed1223.html
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3263972
Where did I say the military should be involved because I did not and yes if you are seen carrying a gun within lets say a mile of either side of the border, then that is your problem. Everyone one is claiming this is an emergency so let's treat it like one. They can close off places like the infamous Area 51 with an extremely effective electronic fence, why can't we do it on the border? We also need to work much harder on working to make Mexico a better place to live even though it is not our job, it seems like Iraq is worth it and justified, why not one of our neighbors. The Mexican citizens have gotten a raw deal since the Spanish set foot in the country and started looting it, then the French, then crooked government, now the drug cartels and a good life for these people is leaving their homes and working at the worst jobs for the lowest wages? There has to be a better answer than what Arizona has done. I look at the Martin Luther Jr. problem, the birther bill, the open carry circus and now this and think Arizona is pretty low on my list of states that I would move to.

You do realize your state is one that allows the "open carry circus" don't you? I also see nothing wrong with the state requiring a candidate to show a registered copy of their birth certificate and I happened to agree with their stance on creating yet another federal holiday where 95% of the taxpaying public doesn't get a day off but federal employees do.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3263982
US Corporations want to keep Mexico down. Over half of the Fortune 500 companies that have manufacturing processes have factories in Mexico. My neighbor works for a company who has manufacturing plants in every Mexico border town in Texas - Acuna, Piedras Negras, Juarez, and also Torreon, Puebla, and Monterrey. They pay on an average $8/DAY for the line workers. They would go out of business if they had to make their products in the US, or even in China (import/export costs would offset the low wages).
Why not electrical fences ? $$$$$$. How much have they already spent on these 8 foot walls they put in Arizona and Texas? Just saw this article today about a major pot bust in ARIZONA, where they had special ramps on the trucks to go OVER the fancy new border fence...
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...eweed1223.html
The fence has been demonstrated to seriously slow them down. It's going to take the National Guard to stop them.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Where's Star Trek or Lost when you need them? Ever seen those shows where they have the energy field fences?
A much simpler solution - land mines. Run large land mine fields along the US border. Worked for the Germans in WW2. Inhumane? Yea. But after a couple hundred of them get a leg blown off, or worse, it would become a hugh deterrent for anyone trying to sneak in. Drastic measures for drastic times.
 

fishtaco

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3263989
You do realize your state is one that allows the "open carry circus" don't you? I also see nothing wrong with the state requiring a candidate to show a registered copy of their birth certificate and I happened to agree with their stance on creating yet another federal holiday where 95% of the taxpaying public doesn't get a day off but federal employees do.
LOL.......you did notice I put "circus" at the end of that? I don't like open carry laws or concealed carry without a permit because people I don't know with AR-15 assault rifles make me a little nervous and has little to do with when I am walking to my car after hunting and should be treated for what it is.
This birther law has nothing to do with everyone and you know it, did you know Hawaii just passed a anti-birther law because they are tired of wasting time and money with these people. Once again I am sorry if I see the other side of the coin, but Obama's birth certificate looks just like mine...........mmmmm wonder what the motivation could be, political?
If the state was that concerned about federal holidays, why would they not strike down Columbus day, a holiday based on a myth about who discovered this country considering there where already people here and the vikings beat Columbus anyway. LOL
Fishtaco
 
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