Is experimentation a part of this hobby?

V

vinnyraptor

Guest
experimentation is a "good" thing. lets face it we all lose livestock or have lost livestock in the past. i currently have a powder brown and a yellow tang in a 95 gallon along with 3 different species of clowns ( 1 each ) a mandarin goby and and algae eating blenny. about 80 lbs of LR and a carpet anemone under reg flor. lights. has been 6 months and water is perfect, nobody fights everyone takes frozen food including the tangs get frozen, flake, seaweed and algae. the anemone has grown significantly and gets a tigershrimp twice a month.
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2724846
There was a small discussion about this in another thread. I would like to open up this one to see what people think about trying different things. Maybe even get some opinion on what is experimentation and what constitutes outright abuse of generally accepted principals.
So I will start the discussion with a couple of things.
The addition of an angelfish to a reef is an experiment to me. Generally accepted knowledge says that you are putting your coral in jeopardy of being nipped at or eaten. However you will always come across people that have succeeded in having an angel be well a perfect angel with their coral, and for them the experiment worked.
The one that started the thoughts was someone that wanted to add two dwarf angels to a 55 gallon tank. Generally people will say no but I have seen some that have done so successfully.
Imagine the first people to succeed at a nano tank, when generally a 55 gallon was though to be the smallest tank you could do saltwater in.
So what are your thoughts on experimentation please discuss.
__________________
Henry
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2774317
experimentation is a "good" thing. lets face it we all lose livestock or have lost livestock in the past. i currently have a powder brown and a yellow tang in a 95 gallon along with 3 different species of clowns ( 1 each ) a mandarin goby and and algae eating blenny. about 80 lbs of LR and a carpet anemone under reg flor. lights. has been 6 months and water is perfect, nobody fights everyone takes frozen food including the tangs get frozen, flake, seaweed and algae. the anemone has grown significantly and gets a tigershrimp twice a month.
See, that's not "experimenting"...
What you are saying is try what usually doesn't wok. If the fish die it's a failed experiment.
What "experiment" are you performing? Can Tangs live together is crowded conditions? We know sometimes they can.
Can anemones survive under sub-par lighting? We know some do.
Can Clowns live together in a big enough tank? We know they can.
Many successful hobbyists learn from the failure of others, stock their tanks appropriately, and have minimal die off.
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2774317
experimentation is a "good" thing. lets face it we all lose livestock or have lost livestock in the past. i currently have a powder brown and a yellow tang in a 95 gallon along with 3 different species of clowns ( 1 each ) a mandarin goby and and algae eating blenny. about 80 lbs of LR and a carpet anemone under reg flor. lights. has been 6 months and water is perfect, nobody fights everyone takes frozen food including the tangs get frozen, flake, seaweed and algae. the anemone has grown significantly and gets a tigershrimp twice a month.
thats not expiriementing thats gambleing, your gambleing that its going to work for you where it hasnt for others. there is no conclusion to be drawn from that statement.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2776866
thats not expiriementing thats gambleing, your gambleing that its going to work for you where it hasnt for others. there is no conclusion to be drawn from that statement.
Exactly. Nor is there any test, constant, or conclusion other than "oops, it died".
So, no.. that is not a "good" thing.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
That is a loaded question.

Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/2726062
I feel I've done my share of experimentation in the seahorse world. My experimentation was with medications followed by necropsies.
I'm guessing they didn't do well with medication.
I kept 2 dwarf angels in a 58 gallon for a good while, (till Ike took em out). Never had any problems, wouldn't have known it could be an issue watching the fish.
Personally, I don't think it is an issue of experiementation, rather of responsibility. I don't see how the average Joe blow hobbiest (like me) is going to make some break through discovery. i'm not proof that you can keep 2 dwarf angels in a tank. I just got two angels that happened to get a long.
I for one don't have the $$ to be playing with stuff that isn't suppose to work.
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/post/2784369
Okay here is a thread where the person has bought a large tank, has he says 20 years experience, is willing to lay out the dough needed, has studied the husbandry required and wants to keep a pair of Moorish Idols.
Open for discussion is this an experiment?
I specifically looked down here to see if anyone had menioned Crimzy's idols.
Really people, there's not much glory in what we do.
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Let's call things what they are here. Any "experimentation" in this hobby is generally secondary. Primary concerns for taking chances is pure selfishness. I am no better. I am getting my idols simply because I've always wanted them. I would love to have them and can't wait to keep them. I am not getting them to further the hobby. But the reality is that keeping all fish has a selfish aspect to it. The best that we can hope for is that hobbiests will do their best, keep the specimens in appropriate systems, with appropriate tankmates, perform responsible maintenance and feed responsibly. If the hobbiest does all this then we give the fish the best chance of survival DESPITE the fact that we are keeping them in relatively small, glass boxes. Experimentation is purely incidental in this hobby, JMO.
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2785358
Let's call things what they are here. Any "experimentation" in this hobby is generally secondary. Primary concerns for taking chances is pure selfishness. I am no better. I am getting my idols simply because I've always wanted them. I would love to have them and can't wait to keep them. I am not getting them to further the hobby. But the reality is that keeping all fish has a selfish aspect to it. The best that we can hope for is that hobbiests will do their best, keep the specimens in appropriate systems, with appropriate tankmates, perform responsible maintenance and feed responsibly. If the hobbiest does all this then we give the fish the best chance of survival DESPITE the fact that we are keeping them in relatively small, glass boxes. Experimentation is purely incidental in this hobby, JMO.
Well put.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2785358
Let's call things what they are here. Any "experimentation" in this hobby is generally secondary. Primary concerns for taking chances is pure selfishness. I am no better. I am getting my idols simply because I've always wanted them. I would love to have them and can't wait to keep them. I am not getting them to further the hobby. But the reality is that keeping all fish has a selfish aspect to it. The best that we can hope for is that hobbiests will do their best, keep the specimens in appropriate systems, with appropriate tankmates, perform responsible maintenance and feed responsibly. If the hobbiest does all this then we give the fish the best chance of survival DESPITE the fact that we are keeping them in relatively small, glass boxes. Experimentation is purely incidental in this hobby, JMO.
This to me is the most well thought out, and well put answer in this thread. It speaks to our own need to have nice things but also to the need to do the best we can to provide for them. I personally believe that what Crimzy is doing is an experiment. An experiment to develop what his own strengths and weaknesses are in the husbandry of keeping the livestock he has chosen. An experiment in his own ability to educate himself on the needs of the Idols and to put what he has learned into practice. Bravo Crimzy for having the patience to wait until you have what you consider to be the best equipment before trying what is considered something outside the reach of most aquarist rather than follow your desires with what would have certainly been substandard in terms of habitat.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2785540
.... ...I personally believe that what Crimzy is doing is an experiment. An experiment to develop what his own strengths and weaknesses are in the husbandry of keeping the livestock he has chosen. An experiment in his own ability to educate himself on the needs of the Idols and to put what he has learned into practice. Bravo Crimzy for having the patience to wait until you have what you consider to be the best equipment before trying what is considered something outside the reach of most aquarist rather than follow your desires with what would have certainly been substandard in terms of habitat.

Spanko, what you are describing is not an experiment...
To properly "experiment" an aquarist:
*Gathers the known information about the fish
*Observes or researches fish in natural habitat
*forms a theory as to why fish dos not do well in captivity
*addresses issue in controlled environment
Just simply saying "I'm going to try this" as you suggest is not an experiment...
 
cranberry

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2790575
Spanko, what you are describing is not an experiment...
To properly "experiment" an aquarist:
*Gathers the known information about the fish
*Observes or researches fish in natural habitat
*forms a theory as to why fish dos not do well in captivity
*addresses issue in controlled environment
Just simply saying "I'm going to try this" as you suggest is not an experiment...
Totally agree here... the MIs are another case of putting a fish into a tank and hoping the gods you pray to are more powerful then the gods of the last person who tried unsuccessfully. I know that may not go over well, but if we can't discuss our concerns, what is the point of discussion forums in the first place.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
So do you think that there is or is not enough information available from others that have kept them successfully that Crim has the ability to educate himself on their needs? I don't know, he sounds like he has done some homework on the, spent the time and resources to get a tank that should be able to house them and set down a path to test his abilities. Isn't that what experimentation is, to test out a new procedure, idea, or activity?
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Well I guess it is just new to him. I mean there are success in keeping MI's as noted by some of the posters in his thread. Isn't this an experiment in his abilities to keep these fish based on other's success?
I understand what you are saying in the strict sense of an experiment believe me but we know this can be done, and to test one's own ability seems like it should be an experiment to me.
 
cranberry

cranberry

Active Member
For me it is not a matter of his abilities at all, there's no doubt he is an experienced keeper. I mean, of course anyone who attempts to keep a "difficult" fish should be experienced, but the sole action of putting a difficult fish in an experienced hobbyist's tank does not make it an experiment.
 
cranberry

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2792808
Are you guys talkng about me again???

Go Pistons.

Nothing like an MI, a basket star or an orange spot filefish to get this conversation going.
What are y'alls definition of experiment as it relates to the hobby?
If you had 2 MI delievered to your door, what would your plan of action be? Crimzy, you're not allowed to answer this one :)
This could be a fun conversation, if everyone has coffee before they post :) We must remember all of us who have been in this hobby long enough has had the "proverbial carnation coral" in our tank at some point.
 
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