Is experimentation a part of this hobby?
- Thread starter spanko
- Start date
T
tizzo
Guest
I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.
Experimenting can have changing result for every hobbiest so it is and always will be, unreliable.
3 mixed clowns in your tank is experimenting, may work may not.
10 similiar tanks with 3 mixed clowns to watch the results of each, is research. Most likely, most of those clowns will die. That's the information that avances our hobby.
Experimenting does nothing in the way of producing facts.
And facts are what we rely on to differentiate between a responsible hobbiest and an idiot.
Lots of people will say they kept 3 clowns, but a lot of people who had them die, will keep their mouth shut. No conclusions can be drawn by asking only for the success stories.
I have a few issues I wish I could change, for example I wanna experiment and put my encrusting monti next to acro's and hope the acros can ward it off, but I'm not gonna "experiment" with that. If I wanted to "research" it,. I'd set up another tank...
experimenting "can be" irresponsible.
Experimenting can have changing result for every hobbiest so it is and always will be, unreliable.
3 mixed clowns in your tank is experimenting, may work may not.
10 similiar tanks with 3 mixed clowns to watch the results of each, is research. Most likely, most of those clowns will die. That's the information that avances our hobby.
Experimenting does nothing in the way of producing facts.
And facts are what we rely on to differentiate between a responsible hobbiest and an idiot.
Lots of people will say they kept 3 clowns, but a lot of people who had them die, will keep their mouth shut. No conclusions can be drawn by asking only for the success stories.
I have a few issues I wish I could change, for example I wanna experiment and put my encrusting monti next to acro's and hope the acros can ward it off, but I'm not gonna "experiment" with that. If I wanted to "research" it,. I'd set up another tank...
experimenting "can be" irresponsible.
cedarreef
Member
I definitely believe in experimentation. But then again, you have to think if you're experimenting or just don't know what could possibly happen. I don't think everyone should experiment, but it could help a lot. Years ago keeping an anthias was unheard of, but now it's a common fish. This may be the case with moorish idols some time. Experiments are good if they're not just plain reckless.
spanko
Active Member
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2728497
I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.
Experimenting can have changing result for every hobbiest so it is and always will be, unreliable.
3 mixed clowns in your tank is experimenting, may work may not.
10 similiar tanks with 3 mixed clowns to watch the results of each, is research. Most likely, most of those clowns will die. That's the information that avances our hobby.
Experimenting does nothing in the way of producing facts.
And facts are what we rely on to differentiate between a responsible hobbiest and an idiot.
Lots of people will say they kept 3 clowns, but a lot of people who had them die, will keep their mouth shut. No conclusions can be drawn by asking only for the success stories.
I have a few issues I wish I could change, for example I wanna experiment and put my encrusting monti next to acro's and hope the acros can ward it off, but I'm not gonna "experiment" with that. If I wanted to "research" it,. I'd set up another tank...
experimenting "can be" irresponsible.
I wonder when, or really how much, conventional wisdom, which there seems to be a lot of, then actually becomes fact???
http:///forum/post/2728497
I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.
Experimenting can have changing result for every hobbiest so it is and always will be, unreliable.
3 mixed clowns in your tank is experimenting, may work may not.
10 similiar tanks with 3 mixed clowns to watch the results of each, is research. Most likely, most of those clowns will die. That's the information that avances our hobby.
Experimenting does nothing in the way of producing facts.
And facts are what we rely on to differentiate between a responsible hobbiest and an idiot.
Lots of people will say they kept 3 clowns, but a lot of people who had them die, will keep their mouth shut. No conclusions can be drawn by asking only for the success stories.
I have a few issues I wish I could change, for example I wanna experiment and put my encrusting monti next to acro's and hope the acros can ward it off, but I'm not gonna "experiment" with that. If I wanted to "research" it,. I'd set up another tank...
experimenting "can be" irresponsible.
I wonder when, or really how much, conventional wisdom, which there seems to be a lot of, then actually becomes fact???
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2724900
I believe that experimentation is what has brought this hobby up to the level it is today so I'm a proponent of experimentation.
However, repeating someone else's failed methods isn't experimentation, it's just a waste of life and an excercise in frustration.
I disagree to a point.
I have kept seahorses in the past. Also kept tangs. everything I read and was told these two species can not co habitate due to appetite and territorial reasons, factor in aggression and such and it just could not be done.
In a typical seahorse aquarium I would agree with that. However I experimented with my 150 gallon aquarium mixing tangs and seahorses. did this successfully for 4 years before my seahorses passed on. I repeated the same situation afterwards before my house move.
So the rules that people say do not work only hold truth under certain circumstances. Under my sircumstance they did not....with repeated success. now had I listened to tried and true rule, no one would know it is possible.
any seahorse keepers interested in how to do this, I will give exact details on what I did to be successful.
http:///forum/post/2724900
I believe that experimentation is what has brought this hobby up to the level it is today so I'm a proponent of experimentation.
However, repeating someone else's failed methods isn't experimentation, it's just a waste of life and an excercise in frustration.
I disagree to a point.
I have kept seahorses in the past. Also kept tangs. everything I read and was told these two species can not co habitate due to appetite and territorial reasons, factor in aggression and such and it just could not be done.
In a typical seahorse aquarium I would agree with that. However I experimented with my 150 gallon aquarium mixing tangs and seahorses. did this successfully for 4 years before my seahorses passed on. I repeated the same situation afterwards before my house move.
So the rules that people say do not work only hold truth under certain circumstances. Under my sircumstance they did not....with repeated success. now had I listened to tried and true rule, no one would know it is possible.
any seahorse keepers interested in how to do this, I will give exact details on what I did to be successful.
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2728497
I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.
.
An expiriment is a part of scientific research, while research can be soley defined as looking up information that some one else did the expiriments to provide.
there definatly is a difference in a random expiriment, a scientific expiriment and a full blown study. not every expiriment need multpile set ups (controlls), to be a solid scientific expiriment it should but, you can conduct an expiriment with out a controll, such as "can cyano grow in a bucket with out light?" (I did this one) it was only lit by whatever light could filter through the sides and lid of a 5 gallon bucket in 24hours there was signifigant growth. what does that tell us? cyano can grow very well in low light. thats an expiriment. not official no controlls but an expiriment, it keys me into the fact that cyano doesnt need TONS of light. so to extrapolate cutting back your light hours may not be the key to defeating it, it may help but probably isnt going to be a major factor, look for other methods.
http:///forum/post/2728497
I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.
.
An expiriment is a part of scientific research, while research can be soley defined as looking up information that some one else did the expiriments to provide.
there definatly is a difference in a random expiriment, a scientific expiriment and a full blown study. not every expiriment need multpile set ups (controlls), to be a solid scientific expiriment it should but, you can conduct an expiriment with out a controll, such as "can cyano grow in a bucket with out light?" (I did this one) it was only lit by whatever light could filter through the sides and lid of a 5 gallon bucket in 24hours there was signifigant growth. what does that tell us? cyano can grow very well in low light. thats an expiriment. not official no controlls but an expiriment, it keys me into the fact that cyano doesnt need TONS of light. so to extrapolate cutting back your light hours may not be the key to defeating it, it may help but probably isnt going to be a major factor, look for other methods.
T
tizzo
Guest
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2729094
An expiriment is a part of scientific research, while research can be soley defined as looking up information that some one else did the expiriments to provide.
there definatly is a difference in a random expiriment, a scientific expiriment and a full blown study. not every expiriment need multpile set ups (controlls), to be a solid scientific expiriment it should but, you can conduct an expiriment with out a controll, such as "can cyano grow in a bucket with out light?" (I did this one) it was only lit by whatever light could filter through the sides and lid of a 5 gallon bucket in 24hours there was signifigant growth. what does that tell us? cyano can grow very well in low light. thats an expiriment. not official no controlls but an expiriment, it keys me into the fact that cyano doesnt need TONS of light. so to extrapolate cutting back your light hours may not be the key to defeating it, it may help but probably isnt going to be a major factor, look for other methods.
Well, reef, if you can grow cyano in a bucket at 5 times in a row, then to me, that's research.Research does use experimentation, but it is to comclude that the same results can be "created" and "predicted" each time. Random experimantation is usually reckless IMO.
Adding the cleaner wrasses has already been researched and the conclusions are accepted by most, but some people still wanna experiment...
Blue linkias in nanos.
sharks in reefs.
multiple dwarf angels.
clown tangs in a 55.
These are things that have al;ready been experimented upon and yet people still wanna try to "improve" the process and beat the system...
Experimenting just to see if you can serves absolutely no purpose in the grand scheme of things...
http:///forum/post/2729094
An expiriment is a part of scientific research, while research can be soley defined as looking up information that some one else did the expiriments to provide.
there definatly is a difference in a random expiriment, a scientific expiriment and a full blown study. not every expiriment need multpile set ups (controlls), to be a solid scientific expiriment it should but, you can conduct an expiriment with out a controll, such as "can cyano grow in a bucket with out light?" (I did this one) it was only lit by whatever light could filter through the sides and lid of a 5 gallon bucket in 24hours there was signifigant growth. what does that tell us? cyano can grow very well in low light. thats an expiriment. not official no controlls but an expiriment, it keys me into the fact that cyano doesnt need TONS of light. so to extrapolate cutting back your light hours may not be the key to defeating it, it may help but probably isnt going to be a major factor, look for other methods.
Well, reef, if you can grow cyano in a bucket at 5 times in a row, then to me, that's research.Research does use experimentation, but it is to comclude that the same results can be "created" and "predicted" each time. Random experimantation is usually reckless IMO.
Adding the cleaner wrasses has already been researched and the conclusions are accepted by most, but some people still wanna experiment...
Blue linkias in nanos.
sharks in reefs.
multiple dwarf angels.
clown tangs in a 55.
These are things that have al;ready been experimented upon and yet people still wanna try to "improve" the process and beat the system...
Experimenting just to see if you can serves absolutely no purpose in the grand scheme of things...
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2730679
Random experimantation is usually reckless IMO.
Adding the cleaner wrasses has already been researched and the conclusions are accepted by most, but some people still wanna experiment...
Blue linkias in nanos.
sharks in reefs.
multiple dwarf angels.
clown tangs in a 55.
These are things that have al;ready been experimented upon and yet people still wanna try to "improve" the process and beat the system...
the expririmenting your describing here as irresponsible, isnt really expirimenting, some people would claim its an expiriement but some one once said, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results".
I'll trythe cyano thing again and see if the results are the same
http:///forum/post/2730679
Random experimantation is usually reckless IMO.
Adding the cleaner wrasses has already been researched and the conclusions are accepted by most, but some people still wanna experiment...
Blue linkias in nanos.
sharks in reefs.
multiple dwarf angels.
clown tangs in a 55.
These are things that have al;ready been experimented upon and yet people still wanna try to "improve" the process and beat the system...
the expririmenting your describing here as irresponsible, isnt really expirimenting, some people would claim its an expiriement but some one once said, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results".
I'll trythe cyano thing again and see if the results are the same
spanko
Active Member
"Experimenting just to see if you can serves absolutely no purpose in the grand scheme of things..."
Would then the accepted still be:
The world is flat
Gravity undiscovered
Kilimanjaro unconquered
etc.etc.etc.
I think there are many "truisms, standards, etc." that have been changed because people were not ready to accept the norm.
Would then the accepted still be:
The world is flat
Gravity undiscovered
Kilimanjaro unconquered
etc.etc.etc.
I think there are many "truisms, standards, etc." that have been changed because people were not ready to accept the norm.
1journeyman
Active Member
Experimenting is fine provided you have a back up plan. Otherwise it is irresponsible aquarium keeping.
We are dealing with living creatures. Too often people do something they know can't be done and use the excue that they are "experimenting"...
We are dealing with living creatures. Too often people do something they know can't be done and use the excue that they are "experimenting"...
tomato clown
Member
My experimentation is limited to expendable items that I don't utilize in my tank. For instance my latest experiment is nothing more than basic. Live rock outside with a PH, basic water changes using old DT water (no fresh top-off's) and just true natural lighting. (I did say BASIC)
texasmetal
Active Member
Experimentation is absolutely necessary. If it isn't broke, don't fix it... but by all means improve on it. Unfortunately though a lot of people take liberty in being ignorant and doing ignorant things regardless of the good information and solutions out there that were developed through previous experimentation.
Research beforehand is absolutely necessary before conducting an experiment. It seems there are a few folks out there that don't make the connection there.
Documenting the good and bad so that others can learn... is a big problem. Seems all too often people ask questions because their tank is crashing or their livestock is dying and then they never follow through to let others know what did or didn't work. There really aren't too many things left unexplored in the hobby but it's frustrating when threads of interest die off unresolved. Being interested in cephalopods I get this a lot. I want more documentation on raising planktonic hatchlings but people only post things like "Help! My octopus laid eggs!" and then they never document what method they tried. At least then I'd know what NOT to waste my time doing.
Research beforehand is absolutely necessary before conducting an experiment. It seems there are a few folks out there that don't make the connection there.
Documenting the good and bad so that others can learn... is a big problem. Seems all too often people ask questions because their tank is crashing or their livestock is dying and then they never follow through to let others know what did or didn't work. There really aren't too many things left unexplored in the hobby but it's frustrating when threads of interest die off unresolved. Being interested in cephalopods I get this a lot. I want more documentation on raising planktonic hatchlings but people only post things like "Help! My octopus laid eggs!" and then they never document what method they tried. At least then I'd know what NOT to waste my time doing.
texasmetal
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2739140
Experimenting is fine provided you have a back up plan. Otherwise it is irresponsible aquarium keeping.
We are dealing with living creatures. Too often people do something they know can't be done and use the excue that they are "experimenting"...
Yup. However one could argue that ethics and pure scientific research aren't always feasible together.
http:///forum/post/2739140
Experimenting is fine provided you have a back up plan. Otherwise it is irresponsible aquarium keeping.
We are dealing with living creatures. Too often people do something they know can't be done and use the excue that they are "experimenting"...
Yup. However one could argue that ethics and pure scientific research aren't always feasible together.
jerthunter
Active Member
Generally my answer would be yes, experimentation is a vital part of this hobby. But regarding the original example of adding an angel to a reef. I would not consider this to be a useful form of experimentation since there is already fairly in depth knowledge about what will happen.
On one hand, if the angel eats the coral, as anticipated... well you're out some coral.
On the other hand, if he doesn't eat the coral, well you have an angel in a reef, which is nice but the information doesn't really help the rest of the hobby, because next time someone wants to add an angel it could still end up eatting the coral...
So experimentation, in the sense that you're trying new things and therefore learning more, is good.
Experimentation, such as trying something that has been tried over and over again because you're hoping to be lucky, is probably not the best idea.
On one hand, if the angel eats the coral, as anticipated... well you're out some coral.
On the other hand, if he doesn't eat the coral, well you have an angel in a reef, which is nice but the information doesn't really help the rest of the hobby, because next time someone wants to add an angel it could still end up eatting the coral...
So experimentation, in the sense that you're trying new things and therefore learning more, is good.
Experimentation, such as trying something that has been tried over and over again because you're hoping to be lucky, is probably not the best idea.
crimzy
Active Member
Unfortunately, "experimentation" has been used in this hobby as an excuse for irresponsibility, impatience and unethical fish keeping. Most people who claim to be experimenting are not scientists (probably couldn't even spell "scientist"). They are usually young, stubborn people who want what they want regardless of the amount of fish sacrificed or living in unsuitable environments.
You don't see many people experimenting that they want to try to breed 2 hippos in their own 300 gallon tank. The experimenting we see here is always that someone thinks that they will "test" whether a panther grouper can live in a 50 gallon tank, whether a blue hippo can live in a 20 gallon or whether they can fully stock their tank without a cycle. This is not experimentation, it's a cop out.
You don't see many people experimenting that they want to try to breed 2 hippos in their own 300 gallon tank. The experimenting we see here is always that someone thinks that they will "test" whether a panther grouper can live in a 50 gallon tank, whether a blue hippo can live in a 20 gallon or whether they can fully stock their tank without a cycle. This is not experimentation, it's a cop out.
mrmoses
Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2724846
There was a small discussion about this in another thread. I would like to open up this one to see what people think about trying different things. Maybe even get some opinion on what is experimentation and what constitutes outright abuse of generally accepted principals.
So I will start the discussion with a couple of things.
The addition of an angelfish to a reef is an experiment to me. Generally accepted knowledge says that you are putting your coral in jeopardy of being nipped at or eaten. However you will always come across people that have succeeded in having an angel be well a perfect angel with their coral, and for them the experiment worked.
The one that started the thoughts was someone that wanted to add two dwarf angels to a 55 gallon tank. Generally people will say no but I have seen some that have done so successfully.
Imagine the first people to succeed at a nano tank, when generally a 55 gallon was though to be the smallest tank you could do saltwater in.
So what are your thoughts on experimentation please discuss.
__________________
Henry
I think something important to keep in mind is just because the fish are surviving does not mean that they are thriving and happy. Humans can live in ridiculous conditions and appear fine however they are unhappy.
http:///forum/post/2724846
There was a small discussion about this in another thread. I would like to open up this one to see what people think about trying different things. Maybe even get some opinion on what is experimentation and what constitutes outright abuse of generally accepted principals.
So I will start the discussion with a couple of things.
The addition of an angelfish to a reef is an experiment to me. Generally accepted knowledge says that you are putting your coral in jeopardy of being nipped at or eaten. However you will always come across people that have succeeded in having an angel be well a perfect angel with their coral, and for them the experiment worked.
The one that started the thoughts was someone that wanted to add two dwarf angels to a 55 gallon tank. Generally people will say no but I have seen some that have done so successfully.
Imagine the first people to succeed at a nano tank, when generally a 55 gallon was though to be the smallest tank you could do saltwater in.
So what are your thoughts on experimentation please discuss.
__________________
Henry
I think something important to keep in mind is just because the fish are surviving does not mean that they are thriving and happy. Humans can live in ridiculous conditions and appear fine however they are unhappy.
poniegirl
Active Member
Bottom line is that it's an experiment when I put my feet on the floor each morning.
There are always a certain set of guidelines for any one project. It is easy to tell which folks are trying to care for their animals and which are not. And I believe that responsible aquarists will keep the animals needs foremost in mind. Most often that means knowing about the creature. Not the scientific terms, but the needs.
The more irresponsible hobbyists will tire of the project.
Just human nature.
There are always a certain set of guidelines for any one project. It is easy to tell which folks are trying to care for their animals and which are not. And I believe that responsible aquarists will keep the animals needs foremost in mind. Most often that means knowing about the creature. Not the scientific terms, but the needs.
The more irresponsible hobbyists will tire of the project.
Just human nature.
dse
Member
catch a man a fish and he will eat for a night teach a man to fish and he will eat evrey night. this is a major saying. wich is saying learn and adapt to what ever it is you do/doing.
i try everything so in future the next time i can relook and go nope not doing it that weay or yes that worked well lets try that again.
right now my wife is going on her own experiment with a cleaner wrasse and an angel lucky for us that it was sand grains on her (we thought white spot)
i try everything so in future the next time i can relook and go nope not doing it that weay or yes that worked well lets try that again.
right now my wife is going on her own experiment with a cleaner wrasse and an angel lucky for us that it was sand grains on her (we thought white spot)