Is experimentation a part of this hobby?

stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/2792829
If you had 2 MI delievered to your door, what would your plan of action be? Crimzy, you're not allowed to answer this one :)
This could be a fun conversation, if everyone has coffee before they post :) We must remember all of us who have been in this hobby long enough has had the "proverbial carnation coral" in our tank at some point.
in my case, I'd have to call a friend who has a 300 gallon reef tank. Because there is no way they'd fit in my 58 gallon tank.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/2792878
K, what would your game plan be if you had the proper size tank stocked with a few very "nosy" fish.
I have to admit, a Morish Idol is a fish that I have on my eventual list. Personally, I'm going to want a 500+ gallon reef tank. What I'd want to do is de-parasite/deworm them some how. Then put them in a QT tank plumbed into the main system that doubled as a fuge, with plenty of liverock, marine growth, and edible macro. Where I could introduce them to introduced food. Once they ate consistantly, they'd go to the display first.
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2793041
I have to admit, a Morish Idol is a fish that I have on my eventual list. Personally, I'm going to want a 500+ gallon reef tank. What I'd want to do is de-parasite/deworm them some how. Then put them in a QT tank plumbed into the main system that doubled as a fuge, with plenty of liverock, marine growth, and edible macro. Where I could introduce them to introduced food. Once they ate consistantly, they'd go to the display first.
This is where the design in your system comes into play. Take it from me, if you have a 500 gallon tank running through a fuge, that fuge is going to be EXTREMELY turbulent. That is, unless the fuge is split off from the rest of the system and only gets a portion of the overflow current. If the fuge is split off then you limit its effectiveness. IMO, to place idols in a very turbulent fuge is not ideal. JMO.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2793054
This is where the design in your system comes into play. Take it from me, if you have a 500 gallon tank running through a fuge, that fuge is going to be EXTREMELY turbulent. That is, unless the fuge is split off from the rest of the system and only gets a portion of the overflow current. If the fuge is split off then you limit its effectiveness. IMO, to place idols in a very turbulent fuge is not ideal. JMO.
Yeah, that would be the idea. In my ideal world, (yes my dream world) this would be split off, with an gravity drain to the DT. And not inline with the main filtration system. And almost a display tank, with just better access to fish.
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2793069
Yeah, that would be the idea. In my ideal world, (yes my dream world) this would be split off, with an gravity drain to the DT. And not inline with the main filtration system. And almost a display tank, with just better access to fish.
Interesting idea.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2793142
Interesting idea.
I had started something to that effect on my 180. I didn't have room underneath my tank for filtration, (first tank error) So I purchased 2 45 gallon breeders and stacked them. I used an external skimmer, and had the bottom 45 gallon as a sump with heaters pumps for the skimmer and return. Then I T'ed off the return to drain into the top "fuge" where it was half full of LR and chaeto, a mangrove. All kinds of cool stuff showed up. I put a a whisper 55 to help with scrubbing, and a power head to help with some circulation. It was almost as fun to watch as my main tank.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
Well guys, we sort of getting away from what the point of a "refugium" is, a "refuge for critters that would otherwise be decimated in the display." Refugiums came about because people wanted to keep fish/inverts they otherwise couldn't in their smaller then previously recommended tank. Having a refugium as refuge, in a 500+gal tank reef, with what probably would be over 1000lbs of live rock, would be a bit of a mute point. Rubble rock piles here and there would more then sacifice.
However, the recent trend for refugiums, as been their main point as a nutrient export, with some macro algaes like chaeto and caulerpas. IMO, any tank can benefit from a bit of that. As far as remote fuges being any less efficent, I can't see it. Nearly 99% of people with their refugiums inline, (in a one sump system, before the return pump), have water moving through way to fast. Yes you do want flow in your fuge, but not to flow through the fuge astronomically high. You have to give the macro's their time to work. Anything over 300gph is too much IME. A remote refugium, that has water pumped in and can be controlled via ball valve, and a powerhead or two in it, is the best way to go IMO.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/2793258
Well guys, we sort of getting away from what the point of a "refugium" is, a "refuge for critters that would otherwise be decimated in the display." Refugiums came about because people wanted to keep fish/inverts they otherwise couldn't in their smaller then previously recommended tank. Having a refugium as refuge, in a 500+gal tank reef, with what probably would be over 1000lbs of live rock, would be a bit of a mute point. Rubble rock piles here and there would more then sacifice.
However, the recent trend for refugiums, as been their main point as a nutrient export, with some macro algaes like chaeto and caulerpas. IMO, any tank can benefit from a bit of that. As far as remote fuges being any less efficent, I can't see it. Nearly 99% of people with their refugiums inline, (in a one sump system, before the return pump), have water moving through way to fast. Yes you do want flow in your fuge, but not to flow through the fuge astronomically high. You have to give the macro's their time to work. Anything over 300gph is too much IME. A remote refugium, that has water pumped in and can be controlled via ball valve, and a powerhead or two in it, is the best way to go IMO.
I agree. You wouldn't need a fuge in a 500 gallon reef setup your display should all but take care of itself. However I like to look at the critters, and they would just be lost in how cool a huge reef like that would be.
 
ret talbot

ret talbot

Member
I have enjoyed this discussion, and I wanted you to know that I just published a blog entry about it at SaltwaterSense--my marine aquaria common sense blog at Saltwaterfish.com. You can read the blog entry here. Thanks for a great discussion. -Ret
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by Ret Talbot
http:///forum/post/2796372
I have enjoyed this discussion, and I wanted you to know that I just published a blog entry about it at SaltwaterSense--my marine aquaria common sense blog at Saltwaterfish.com. You can read the blog entry here. Thanks for a great discussion. -Ret
interesting.
 
ajer

ajer

Member
I think experimentation is good, but always keep the good of your aminals in mind. Don't just experiment so you can say "I have a 2 foot grouper in a 10 gallon tank". Do it carefully and patiently.
 
happitylogan

happitylogan

Member
I found this on an experiment on keeping a Mandarin Dragonet in a Nano tank.
*I will do everything in my power to provide the mandarin with the nutrition and care it needs.
*I believe experimenting with pets is good, as long as the caregiver has done his homework.
Fish are not people. Attaching human elements onto fish or any lower animal is a fallacy. I am not "torturing" a fish for selfish or aesthetic reasons; I am advancing the hobby by trying to do what others have successfully done before.
*If my experiment fails, I am prepared to "eat" the fish and all the expenses. I will return the mandarin to the LFS, and I will probably try again with another specimen. If I fail again, I will most likely give up; however, I will never condemn someone who tries the same thing.
*I will not know if things are going swimmingly until I reach the six month mark.
link to article
http://joshday.com/mandaringoby.htm
 
texasmetal

texasmetal

Active Member
Heh, "lower animal". Anthropomorphising an animal a fallacy, yes. Attaching the fact that they feel pain and suffer is not.
 
happitylogan

happitylogan

Member

Originally Posted by TexasMetal
http:///forum/post/2950866
Heh, "lower animal". Anthropomorphising an animal a fallacy, yes. Attaching the fact that they feel pain and suffer is not.
direct quote:
The world's foremost expert on the subject is Dr. James D. Rose of the University of Wyoming. He's spent 30 years working on questions of neurology, examining data on the responses of animals to painful stimuli. In 2003 Rose published a landmark study in the journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concluding that animals need specific regions of the cerebral cortex in order to feel pain. And fish do not have them.
http://fishscam.com/faqPain.cfm
so, your telling me this guy who has been studying and experimenting for thirty years is lying to everyone? He's in the top of his field, I find it very doubtful.
 
texasmetal

texasmetal

Active Member

Originally Posted by happityLogan
http:///forum/post/2951452
direct quote:
The world's foremost expert on the subject is Dr. James D. Rose of the University of Wyoming. He's spent 30 years working on questions of neurology, examining data on the responses of animals to painful stimuli. In 2003 Rose published a landmark study in the journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concluding that animals need specific regions of the cerebral cortex in order to feel pain. And fish do not have them.
http://fishscam.com/faqPain.cfm
so, your telling me this guy who has been studying and experimenting for thirty years is lying to everyone? He's in the top of his field, I find it very doubtful.
I find any animal that has a will to survive and flee death and shows obvious signs of distress and panic is not above suffrage. Didn't say the guy is lying. Obviously Ich causes irritation or they wouldn't try to scratch it off, so I don't see how something more severe than Ich doesn't cause a more severe sensation.
Maybe there's such a thing as reincarnation and he'll be able to gain first hand experience.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
I'm mildly confused by the seemingly contradictory last couple of posts.
On the one hand we're told not to attribute human qualities to our pets, yet then we are told since a fish's brain is not like ours it must not feel pain?
Sorry; I don't by that. Poke at a fish and it "reacts". Reacting to a negative stimulus, imho, is feeling "pain".
Anyone who has kept a SW aquarium for long has walked in, seen one of their fish, and been able to immediately tell something is wrong with the tank. Again, imho, fish reacting to a negative environment=feeling pain.
Why do fish have spines? If predator fish do not feel pain, why would spines deter them from swallowing smaller prey fish?
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member

Originally Posted by happityLogan
http:///forum/post/2950037
*If my experiment fails, I am prepared to "eat" the fish and all the expenses. I will return the mandarin to the LFS, and I will probably try again with another specimen.
This one is completely rubbing me the wrong way. How in the world is it the LFS's fault a fish died because in YOUR experiment, YOU decided to stick a fish in an inapproiate tank??
Why are YOU sticking the LFS with the cost of another fish (after the first dead one gets return).
(not saying you Logan, whereever you got that from).
Originally Posted by happityLogan
http:///forum/post/2951452
In 2003 Rose published a landmark study in the journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concluding that animals need specific regions of the cerebral cortex in order to feel pain. And fish do not have them.
http://fishscam.com/faqPain.cfm
so, your telling me this guy who has been studying and experimenting for thirty years is lying to everyone? He's in the top of his field, I find it very doubtful.
No, not saying he's lying, but honestly the brain is so complex, even with 30 years of research, I really don't think that put a dent into understanding the brain, even of a 'simplier' brain
 
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