Is government broken?

reefraff

reefraff

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3238292
What ficticious data? The latest reports I've seen are that consumer spending has started to slowly come back up, and unemployment numbers have gone down slightly. Obama stated from the onset of the stimulus package that it wouldn't fix things overnight. He didn't expect any major changes to occur for at least a couple of years. The stimulus was intended to slow down and hopefully stop our economic system from going from a recession to a depression. As complex as the economic system is in this country, I don't see how anyone could expect any change, whether it be a stimulus package or dramatic spending cuts, could show any major results overnight. No matter what plan Obama tried to use to turn the economy around, I would expect it to take at least two years, if not more, before any positive results were shown.

You missed all the reports about jobs created in none existent zip codes, the 5 jobs created by the government buying a single pair of work boots, the 9 created by buying a lawnmower?
"Some of the stimulus data actually reported needs additional scrutiny, GAO's lead auditor told members of the House oversight committee. Almost 4,000 designated recipients who have not yet received stimulus funding reported creating or saving more than 58,000 jobs, the report said. Another 9,200 recipients reported no job creation, despite receiving a total of $965 million. "
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/jobs-...ory?id=9097853
"Here's a stimulus success story: In Arizona's 15th congressional district, 30 jobs have been saved or created with just $761,420 in federal stimulus spending. At least that's what the Web site set up by the Obama administration to track the $787 billion stimulus says.
Discrepancies on government Web site call into question stimulus spending.
There's one problem, though: There is no 15th congressional district in Arizona; the state has only eight districts.
And ABC News has found many more entries for projects like this in places that are incorrectly identified. "
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5AI5II20091119
"The first report found that the plan has saved or created 640,329 jobs since February. Almost immediately, however, states, contractors and newspapers found errors in the numbers.
According to the Chicago Tribune, for example, Illinois reported the North Chicago School District saved the jobs of 473 teachers with stimulus money, even though it employs only 290 teachers."
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/scrut...ory?id=9075257
Here's my favorite
"According to USA Today, the Texas recipient of a $26,174 roofing contract reported erroneously that 450 jobs were created or saved when, in fact, six were."
How long can a 36K contract keep even 5 people employed

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/11/rea...ake-districts/
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3237705
I'd ask for a tuition refund if your instructor claims it's insurance companies driving the inflation in health care.
I don't get your point. If the insurance companies are not driving the health care inflation rate (which is almost triple the overall inflation rate), then who is?
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
I have said before and will say again: Democrats are for government control over the citizenry. Republicans are for big business control of the citizenry. For Republicans who want proof: If we get sick or lose our job or have bad judgment and can't pay our bills, we can file for bankruptcy but can't bankrupt most debt thanks to the Bush/Republican bankruptcy reform-we are slaves to the banks now. A corporate CEO and his board can drain all the resources from a company, rack up billions in debt, then walk away with hundreds of millions of $ and not pay a penny back-as long as they don't try to hide what they're doing. The Republicans specifically exempted corporations from the new restrictions. Democrats do what they always do, regulate, tax and create new laws to force people to do what they want them to do. We are scr@w@d and there are far too many brain-dead lemmings who are blindly following the parties over the cliff.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3239309
I don't get your point. If the insurance companies are not driving the health care inflation rate (which is almost triple the overall inflation rate), then who is?
If it was the insurance companies driving up the costs why haven't their profit margins increased? They still have one of the lower corporate margins.
HIPPA causes some of the issues, defensive medicine/insurance etc. There is no single component that is causing it but you got to look at what is the best area to look for savings. Legal and administrative costs aren't really a benefit to patients so that is a great place to start. Changing the law requiring ER's doing business with state and county government is another. I think if someone shows up to the hospital with no insurance or means to pay we need to be coming up with a way to collect rather than just giving them a free ride. We should also deport illegals after they are treated. That solves a multitude of problems too.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3239323
If it was the insurance companies driving up the costs why haven't their profit margins increased? They still have one of the lower corporate margins.
Ah, ok, understood. Valid point and very complicated issue as well.
 
sickboy

sickboy

Active Member

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3238259
Unless people want to actually start paying out of pocket for the cost of their own medical care insurance is the best game in town, period.
Medical care would have to take a major correction in price for this to be possible, and that won't happen.
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3239309
I don't get your point. If the insurance companies are not driving the health care inflation rate (which is almost triple the overall inflation rate), then who is?
The companies themselves aren't the only cause, a lot is on the consumer as well.
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3239323
If it was the insurance companies driving up the costs why haven't their profit margins increased? They still have one of the lower corporate margins.
Profit margins have little to nothing to do with this argument.

[hr]
Ok, Reef, I think you looked over the part where I said "what I have learned so far is that Health care inflation is out of control and the major culprit is insurance, both publicly and privately provided."
That statement does not indict insurance companies, but rather the third party payer system in general. In a nutshell, b/c of insurance, the price is effectively lowered for the consumer and therefore the demand is artificial skewed toward more consumption at the same price (a demand curve pivoting to the right while anchored on the x-axis for those of you who prefer graphs). This model is backed by information regarding increase patient usages and prices. The problem, because of the insurance product aka the third party payer system, is an over consumption that leads to increased prices.
However, to tie in your profit margin argument, because of medical care being over priced in response to the demand, profit margin is squeezed.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Health savings accounts are probably the best overall solution.
You get a better rate on insurance with a high deductible because the insurance isn't going to pay out for routine visits or minor procedures, you are. Guess what, now people are going to start questioning things like a five dollar aspirin or follow up and ask questions when they get a bill for a test they didn't remember getting.
70 years after the fact insurance isn't such a great idea but unfortunately you can't put the genie back in the bottle. I believe HSA are a logical step towards undoing the mistake. I remember when I was recovering I was in traction for 2 months. Once I was out of traction the air bed they had me on to prevent bed sores went back and they brought in a "big boy" bed (I am 6'5") which was still a special rental. The price for the rental went down about 300.00, A DAY!. The insurance co could have bought the damned bed for less. This was actually workers comp insurance, the worst of both worlds, government trying to run an insurance company.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3239309
I don't get your point. If the insurance companies are not driving the health care inflation rate (which is almost triple the overall inflation rate), then who is?
The medical industry itself. How do hospitals justify charging $5 for an aspirin? $10,000 for a CT Scan? Not to mention the double-billing and adding items onto a bill that were never adminsitered or used on the patient. The insurance companies inflate their rates in order to keep up with the inflation rates of the hospitals and doctors. If they didn't, they'd be bankrupt within months. If the government went into the hospitals, and regulated charges and fees the hospital could charge a patient for any given procedure, insurance costs and healthcare costs in general would decrease.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
The advantage of employees over slaves is that, while you can treat each in the same manner, you don't have to house, feed or, in any other way, care for the former. Plus - bonus - you can profit from not doing so.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3240194
The advantage of employees over slaves is that, while you can treat each in the same manner, you don't have to house, feed or, in any other way, care for the former. Plus - bonus - you can profit from not doing so.
Advantage of being an employee over a slave is you have wage and work safety conditions monitored by the government, The more experience you gain the more valuable you become to your employer or his competition if he doesn't treat you right, and if you don't like the conditions you are free to go apply at any other plantation you wish.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3240288
Advantage of being an employee over a slave is you have wage and work safety conditions monitored by the government, The more experience you gain the more valuable you become to your employer or his competition if he doesn't treat you right, and if you don't like the conditions you are free to go apply at any other plantation you wish.
'Til the competition gets absorbed, thereby eliminating a now redundant position, or your plantation gets outsourced.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
Another advantage to being an employee is that you get to wear your choice of overalls to Causal Friday at the plantation, as where a slave's attire options are fixed.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3240292
'Til the competition gets absorbed, thereby eliminating a now redundant position, or your plantation gets outsourced.
As long as there is more than one plantation owner there will always be competition. If you don't like the wages they offer go to work at the cotton gin or freight company. Only way to absorb all competition is through government control ie; socialism.
Outsourcing is a direct result of over reaching tax and regulatory policies placed on the plantations where it becomes more economically feasible to share profits with an overseas owner plus pay shipping costs to freight your product from thousands of miles away than produce it in our country. Our government couldn't possibly be so stupid as to tax and regulate our industrial base overseas could they?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3240295
Another advantage to being an employee is that you get to wear your choice of overalls to Causal Friday at the plantation, as where a slave's attire options are fixed.
Don't forget your choice of music to sing while working in the fields.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3240386
Well, based on this first-hand account of our current medical system, 31% of healthcare costs are attributed to paperwork and administration. Very interesting, albeit long story..
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...0032321836.htm
When the system got so complicated that medical billing services began popping up in the 80's that should have been the first clue. HIPPA made things even worse but when it's so complicated to bill an insurance company you have to hire outside help something is wrong.
As bad as that is try dealing with medicare. The wife's office is going through that right now on a case. The first medical billing person I met was one hired to deal specifically with medicare billing but it's all a PITA.
One thing I took away from the article is we need to take a long hard look at end of life care. We wont let a dog or cat suffer like we do people with terminal illness. I think there really does need to be a law allowing people with a known terminal condition to make the decision if they want to have the doc just give them a shot to be put out of their misery.
Another was the woman's attitude she didn't care if the insurance overpaid on some procedure. That is another big problem. I mean I don't blame her for wanting the best care she can get for the husband but at some point people have got to start taking responsibility for what costs the are laying on other people.
 
sickboy

sickboy

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3240327
As long as there is more than one plantation owner there will always be competition. If you don't like the wages they offer go to work at the cotton gin or freight company. Only way to absorb all competition is through government control ie; socialism.
Outsourcing is a direct result of over reaching tax and regulatory policies placed on the plantations where it becomes more economically feasible to share profits with an overseas owner plus pay shipping costs to freight your product from thousands of miles away than produce it in our country. Our government couldn't possibly be so stupid as to tax and regulate our industrial base overseas could they?
I disagree and think this makes absolutely no sense. The pure act of competition creates a winner and a loser. Eventually the winner takes it all sort of like a national championship. Gov't control is not what causes the lack of competition, and in a lot of cases gov't control, i.e. anti-trust law, is what keeps competition going. The only way that a market will correct a monopoly situation is when the monopolist charges outrageous prices in the name of the profit motive, but even then the barriers for a competitor to enter the market are usually extremely high and therefore implausible.
Also, what does gov't tax and regulation have to do with outsourcing? I can think of a few rare situations where that might happen, but overall it has to do with comparative wage rates.
 
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