It's easter...got a question

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question#post_3543823
I think one would have a hard time proving that the bible is not a history book. I think the same could be said about proving it isn't mythology. But I completely agree, they are history books and they certainly serve an important purpose as such. With that said, history books can have flaws and be wrong sometimes; after all it is written in the plebeian language of man.

Here is another radical concept: the bible is not the word of God. I cannot hold the bible up to my ear and hear God. Preaching; that's where you hear the word of God. It's like life is being breathed into the pages.

Hi Pez, I love your mind, but "preachers, are not God, and all you get from their words, are their beliefs, which are 80% wrong on what was originally being said in the books, and often taken out of context, because instead of preaching a full passage, they preach a few lines, taken from different areas to say what they want to express. It's all a big show, and religion is big business. Read the books for yourself, and ask God for understanding...you won't be disappointed in what you see and learn. I have no love for religion, I love God with all of my heart and all of my being.

The word of God was not a book, the words were whispered into the ears of the prophets who then put it into writing. That being said, the book is alive, it never grows old, it's teachings are as important today as they were on the day they were written.

As to why I personally believe it's words.... The Bible is a group of put together books. The same things that were spoken to one prophet, is spoken to another prophet, most accounts are men who had never read the others books or known of their accounts. Yet they say the same things, because God does not change...he isn't a religion. Unfortunately man made religion is what is responsible for all the unfortunate holy wars and such. But if you want to get to know him, and know his likes and dislikes, and how to express your devotion to him, the books will give you the directions you seek, nothing more.

The magical prayer isn't going to "save" you from God's wrath, but devotion to him will. Provided you can avoid participating in those things that bring his anger in the first place. The dangerous things to avoid are also found within the pages. For the most part, the only thing that seems to really rile him up is to acknowledge another god besides him....The first commandment.

By the way....You can hear the very voice of God if you know how to listen. You hear the birds songs and the crickets every day don't you?...Do you know what they say? They are calling to their beloved, saying "hear I am, come to me". That's the same message God is sending, and he put the song in the birds.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question#post_3543822


We have no Temple, you can't do the sacrifices in just any ole place. They must be done in the place God chose, in the way he taught us to.

The prophecies concerning the 3rd temple will have those sacrifices reinstated. It's nearly midnight...I will elaborate more on this subject if you like. The sacrifices were more then "washing away sin"... most were a "Thank you" gift for something God had done for them, cleansing away their skin disease for example.

Sacrifices were only for those in good standing, if a person was a "sinner" he had to make things right before he could offer a sacrifice.. Yeshua taught the same thing, he said to leave the gift at the altar and go make peace and THEN come and offer the gift. He was talking about the sacrifice. Matt 5:23

LOL...When the people sinned, God never told them to "quick get a sacrifice!" It just didn't work the way, Christians seem to think it did, nor do they understand Yeshua's sacrifice, it was not like an animal sacrifice. It was more like a firefighters sacrifice, who died saving a child from a burning building. If he dies and the child grows up to be an evil person, he died for nothing, but if it the child grows up and does good things for many people...the sacrifice of the firefighter was worth it. Hebrews 10 and John 13.

God does not, nor has ever required a human sacrifice. Pagans believed in human sacrifice, so they assumed that's what Yeshua did, that twist of thought has remained ever since Constantine corrupted the church.

I wanted my answer to Darth concerning sacrifice to be seen, I didn't want it buried from newer posts, so I'm posting this quote

 

[theclemsonkid]

I was at a Seder dinner service last week, and one of the women at our table said something about Scientology, and "can you believe that those people think God came from a spaceship? What a bunch of whackos."

A few minutes later, we were chanting "frogs, frogs, frogs", and "death of the firstborn" while dipping parsley in sea water.

Just think about that for a second...

 

[beth]

Two issues I have with the religious:

1. They believe that their belief system is the only one that is correct (even though there are hundreds of different beliefs, each with their own thousands, millions, or even billions of respective believers).

2. Some Christian groups try to force feed their religious beliefs on those who do not believe as they do.

I'm with you Flower. Jesus was a man and not God. However, I am wholly skeptical of any belief that says that he was something more than a human being. If you study Christianity at all, you know that the Christianity that we have today evolved from a developing religion that occurred a few centuries AFTER Jesus and the Apostles were long dead and buried. In fact, even during the early Christian era (pre-Nicaea), following the death of the Apostles, the "religion" started to go astray into divergent sects of belief. So, since that is a historical given, its not reasonable that Jesus was who he has come to be under Christianity.

 

[2quills]

It doesn't sound to me like Judaism was the first monotheistic form of religion. How is that traditional Judaism became the first "true" interpretation of God?

 

[2quills]

I was at a Seder dinner service last week, and one of the women at our table said something about Scientology, and "can you believe that those people think God came from a spaceship? What a bunch of whackos."
A few minutes later, we were chanting "frogs, frogs, frogs", and "death of the firstborn" while dipping parsley in sea water.
Just think about that for a second...
We had a renter a while back that moved here from California to escape the church of scientology. He moved three times before coming here because everywhere he went he said they would stalk him and make death threats because he left and spoke out against their practices. True story, unless he made it up. Don't see why he would.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543833
It doesn't sound to me like Judaism was the first monotheistic form of religion. How is that traditional Judaism became the first "true" interpretation of God?
There are debates about it. Some say the Egyptians during the Armana Period was the first, and that, in fact, that is where the Hebrews got the idea from. That is up for debate.

 

[darthtang aw]

Flower, do you make sacrifice
I wanted my answer to Darth concerning sacrifice to be seen, I didn't want it buried from newer posts, so I'm posting this quote
I saw it. But what about the different variations of Qorbanot? To my understanding Temple is not required for all..and they were held even after the temple was destroyed.

 

[darthtang aw]

Two issues I have with the religious: 
1.  They believe that their belief system is the only one that is correct (even though there are hundreds of different beliefs, each with their own thousands, millions, or even billions of respective believers).
2.   Some Christian groups try to force feed their religious beliefs on those who do not believe as they do.
I'm with you Flower.  Jesus was a man and not God.  However, I am wholly skeptical of any belief that says that he was something  more than a human being.  If you study Christianity at all, you know that the Christianity that we have today evolved from a developing religion that occurred a few centuries AFTER Jesus and the Apostles were long dead and buried. In fact, even during the early Christian era (pre-Nicaea), following the death of the Apostles, the "religion" started to go astray into divergent sects of belief.   So, since that is a historical  given, its not reasonable that Jesus was who he has come to be under Christianity.
Much of this can be blamed on politics and societal acceptances of certain practices and lifestyle. I have seen the Transformation of who and what Jesus was in my own lifetime purely based on these two factors.
The Trinity you posted was the one taught during my upbringing. But Flower is correct. jesus has his own demi-god status in many a church now days. While on Earth Jesus was aman blessed by God. Upon his passing he became one with his father.not a separate entity.
Touching on your first point of reason. The only way to believe is to believe you are correct in your belief. Would you believe in something you thought was wrong?

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543838
Touching on your first point of reason. The only way to believe is to believe you are correct in your belief. Would you believe in something you thought was wrong?
I believe that I'm not infallible in my thinking; therefore I try not to be arrogant about my thinking on religion. I'm not dogmatic about faith. I also think that God made humans with contrariness in mind; therefore, allowing for various paths to follow leading to the same thing. While the intricacies of religion can vary greatly the basics of all religions are very similar.

In today's Christianity, anything is possible really. A guy who is able to set up his own "church" can basically preach and "interpret" whatever as long as he has a following that will support that Church. I do think that most of your organized non-Catholic denominations--Methodists, Lutherans, Baptist (some not) do hold to the Trinity. The off-shoots certainly go off on tangents. The Catholics are certainly Trinity believers without deviation.

 

[2quills]

There are debates about it. Some say the Egyptians during the Armana Period was the first, and that, in fact, that is where the Hebrews got the idea from.  That is up for debate.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Zoroastrianism
Zoroastrianism (or Mazdaism) refers to the religion developed from the teachings of the Persian prophet Zarathushtra (c. tenth century B.C.E.), who is commonly known in the West as Zoroaster. Zoroastrians most commonly refer to themselves as Zartoshti ("Zoroastrians"), Mazdayasni ("Wisdom-Worshippers"), and Behdini ("Followers of the Good Religion"). In India, they are known as Parsis ("People from Pars," which refers to the Persian heritage of the group).
Due to its great antiquity, Zoroastrianism was tremendously influential on the history, culture, and art of Persia, as well as on the development of the Abrahamic religions. According to scholars, Zoroastrianism was the first religion to believe in angels, a day of judgment, a Satan figure, and an ongoing battle between forces of light and darkness in the cosmos. These ideas later influenced the theological development of Judaism (and, by extension, Christianity and Islam).
The tendency of the Abrahamic traditions to use of light as a symbol of goodness may be partially derived from Zoroastrian rituals associated with reverence for fire and purity. Likewise, the concept of the Halo, still commonly associated with saints and holy figures in art today, first originated in Zoroastrianism. However, the Zoroastrians most explicitly recognized in the Western world are the Magi, whose visit to the infant Jesus is described in the Christian New Testament.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543837
Flower, do you make sacrifice
I saw it. But what about the different variations of Qorbanot? To my understanding Temple is not required for all..and they were held even after the temple was destroyed.

Where did you read that we can sacrifice anywhere but the temple in Jerusalem?... or should I say rather at the SITE of the temple, the place is holy ground. We can still sacrifice at that site, but a Mosque is built on the Holy place right now...still to date, the Holy of Holies is roped off to remind the Jews to not step into that area.

Deut 12:13-14

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543848
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Zoroastrianism
Zoroastrianism (or Mazdaism) refers to the religion developed from the teachings of the Persian prophet Zarathushtra (c. tenth century B.C.E.), who is commonly known in the West as Zoroaster. Zoroastrians most commonly refer to themselves as Zartoshti ("Zoroastrians"), Mazdayasni ("Wisdom-Worshippers"), and Behdini ("Followers of the Good Religion"). In India, they are known as Parsis ("People from Pars," which refers to the Persian heritage of the group).
Due to its great antiquity, Zoroastrianism was tremendously influential on the history, culture, and art of Persia, as well as on the development of the Abrahamic religions. According to scholars, Zoroastrianism was the first religion to believe in angels, a day of judgment, a Satan figure, and an ongoing battle between forces of light and darkness in the cosmos. These ideas later influenced the theological development of Judaism (and, by extension, Christianity and Islam).
The tendency of the Abrahamic traditions to use of light as a symbol of goodness may be partially derived from Zoroastrian rituals associated with reverence for fire and purity. Likewise, the concept of the Halo, still commonly associated with saints and holy figures in art today, first originated in Zoroastrianism. However, the Zoroastrians most explicitly recognized in the Western world are the Magi, whose visit to the infant Jesus is described in the Christian New Testament.

You are so close... Zoroastrianism was before Christianity, and much of modern Christianity's beliefs (taken from pagan practices) are an off shoot of that religion. Look up the god Mithra, born on Dec 25, the (sun god) and his mother Ishtar (fertility goddess, holy symbol of the egg and rabbit, celebrated with all kinds of confections) AKA Astoreth that the prophet Jeremiah spoke against. The silly story goes like this...Her sun god son, shined a prism on her holy symbol the egg, and the easter egg was born. Easter is all very, very pagan based. The corruptors tossed in Jesus' resurrection, which did not occur on the day of the equinox, and that was supposed to override the Passover, and draw the people as far away from Judaism as possible (original Christians were Jews who believed Yeshua was Messiah, the promised one.)....drawing the people deeper into idolatry...The one thing that really riles the wrath of the Most high...by all interpretations of the books.

Judaism is not designed after Zoroastrianism, however the Jewish people are not unscathed either, we were indeed influenced by pagan gods as well, it was a source of great sin for Israel. For example: To date the eye in the hand is celebrated by many Jews to stop the evil eye, they put it in their houses, and even have it around their necks as jewelry... IMO, although folks tried to change it's meaning, it's still Ra the Egyptian god, which was a big eye. I personally won't allow that symbol in my house, nor will it be found in any Synagogue I have ever seen.

The magi by the way were not good guys. They were stargazers, and such practice was not acceptable for the followers of HaShem (God of Israel) Isaiah 47. Their "worship" ushered in the death of the firstborn, and put baby Yeshua in great danger. The way God chose was an angel sent to tell a shepherd with the good news, that didn't create any problems at all. The magi showed up a year later and wrecked havoc. They didn't mean any harm, they had seen his sign in the star and went seeking because they didn't know how to go about doing things the right way, but when you do the wrong thing, even with good intentions, it always causes problems.

In the end, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ... its the best advice ever given. That's why I love debating these things, it's not to fight.... but to give some perspective, and let folks have a peek at more then what is preached in the church, and make up their own minds with a little education instead of blindly following. We never stop learning and growing, human life is short ... but eternity is forever.

 

[darthtang aw]

Where did you read that we can sacrifice anywhere but the temple in Jerusalem?... or should I say rather at the SITE of the temple, the place is holy ground. We can still sacrifice at that site, but a Mosque is built on the Holy place right now...still to date, the Holy of Holies is roped off to remind the Jews to not step into that area.
Deut 12:13-14
Ezek 11 14-17

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543854
Ezek 11 14-17

Ezkiel 11:14-17

[sup]14 The word of the Lord came to me: [sup]15 “Son of man, the people of Jerusalem have said of your fellow exiles and all the other Israelites, ‘They are far away from the Lord; this land was given to us as our possession.’
16 [/sup]“Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Although I sent them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries, yet for a little while I have been a sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.’
17 [/sup]“Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.’

Darth, Did you misunderstand the passage, or perhaps posted the wrong one? Where do you read that the sacrifices may be done anywhere besides Jerusalem, or done away with at all?

 

[darthtang aw]

Ezkiel 11:14-17
[sup]14 The word of the Lord came to me: [sup]15 “Son of man, the people of Jerusalem have said of your fellow exiles and all the other Israelites, ‘They are far away from the Lord; this land was given to us as our possession.’
16 [/sup]“Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Although I sent them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries, yet for a little while I have been a sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.’
17 [/sup]“Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.’
Darth, Did you misunderstand the passage, or perhaps posted the wrong one? Where do you read that the sacrifices may be done anywhere besides Jerusalem, or done away with at all?
I am laying bread crumbs. For that I apologize. The next bread crumb will have to wait till I am home tonight.

 

[pezenfuego]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543826

Hi Pez, I love your mind, but "preachers, are not God, and all you get from their words, are their beliefs, which are 80% wrong on what was originally being said in the books, and often taken out of context, because instead of preaching a full passage, they preach a few lines, taken from different areas to say what they want to express. It's all a big show, and religion is big business. Read the books for yourself, and ask God for understanding...you won't be disappointed in what you see and learn. I have no love for religion, I love God with all of my heart and all of my being.

The word of God was not a book, the words were whispered into the ears of the prophets who then put it into writing. That being said, the book is alive, it never grows old, it's teachings are as important today as they were on the day they were written.

As to why I personally believe it's words.... The Bible is a group of put together books. The same things that were spoken to one prophet, is spoken to another prophet, most accounts are men who had never read the others books or known of their accounts. Yet they say the same things, because God does not change...he isn't a religion. Unfortunately man made religion is what is responsible for all the unfortunate holy wars and such. But if you want to get to know him, and know his likes and dislikes, and how to express your devotion to him, the books will give you the directions you seek, nothing more.

The magical prayer isn't going to "save" you from God's wrath, but devotion to him will. Provided you can avoid participating in those things that bring his anger in the first place. The dangerous things to avoid are also found within the pages. For the most part, the only thing that seems to really rile him up is to acknowledge another god besides him....The first commandment.

By the way....You can hear the very voice of God if you know how to listen. You hear the birds songs and the crickets every day don't you?...Do you know what they say? They are calling to their beloved, saying "hear I am, come to me". That's the same message God is sending, and he put the song in the birds.
Great post, sincerely. I wish I had more time to write a good response; but in short, I love that you are passionate about this and I am impressed with how well you conveyed these complex ideas and feelings. I find it oddly disappointing that I don't disagree with anything you said =P

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543885
I am laying bread crumbs. For that I apologize. The next bread crumb will have to wait till I am home tonight.

Hi,

I was so very anxious for your response, you must have gotten busy. I did a little study to see what you might be talking about. Deuteronomy 12 speaks of slaughtering your animals someplace besides the temple. .. Yet done in the proper method. These are animals for food and not sacrifices...only the Levi priest can so that.

To date we now have a Rabbi in the slaughter houses to properly kill the animal for eating, it's part of the Kosher laws. Paul taught that the new converts could also eat what is sold in the "shambles' (stores) as common food, but that does not mean pig meat, one still is expected to eat the right foods (chews the cud and has split hooves) but it's not necessary for it to be kosher killed. 1 Corinthians 10

While obedience is better than sacrifice, it does not mean it should replace it.
Here is some really heavy reading on what is really going on at this date and time in prophecy... IMO anyway. The books speak of weeks and years, but it has turned out to be more like centuries, so God's times are not our times... still the book of Daniel is loaded with prophecy on what is going on, now that sacrifices have stopped and why.

http://www.topverses.com/Bible/Daniel/9/27

What really is disturbing is that Christians teach that Yeshua stopped the sacrifices by becoming a sacrifice for us, if that's the case (I say that just to show how crazy things have gotten) then Yeshua wouldn't be the Messiah that restores, he would be the great evil one (AKA the antichrist) spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

 

[darthtang aw]

sorry, I did get busy.
Leviticus 17:11
Hebrews 9:22

 

[darthtang aw]

The temple was destroyed twice correct?