last resort...

[rykna]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2455871
Totally agree with that. That's why I mentioned where I was diving. I can only speak to the species found off the Mexican coast in the Carribean.
Thought on Location of seahorses~ if (and that can be a big if sometimes) we are purchasing Captive Bred Seahorses, how does any of the conditions of the wild habitat impact our captive bred seahorses?
As we all know, certain species of fish are more susceptible to stress and illness. That is why we have divided fish keeping into categories. I guess what I thinking is, going back to basics. Using me as an example, I have kept fish long enough to become comfortable with my knowledge. Or perhaps I should say careless with my knowledge. I take short cuts that I would instruct beginners NOT to use.
So I started reveiwing~
FISH101

What type of fish are we housing?
Community
Aggressive
Timid
Are we providing proper hiding areas, etc. When building a community fresh water tank, I always divided the tank into levels; bottom fish, mid level fish, top level fish. I also divided the tank up with structural components to provide hiding places, and help define territories.
Water quality
Food/Nutrition
Providing a proper environment
Even gold fish cannot survive with out these essentials. Ophiura mentioned that reporting all tank levels is necessary to finding the cause of a problem. Many of us, myself included, have only posted the most critical levels when problems arose. In doing so, we may very well have over looked/missed what has been causing our losses.
I also agree the algae, like maiden hair, is a reg flag. Unwanted algae growth appears when your water quality changes.
~ I was thinking about 1journeyman's response to the slight PH change in my tank. How could a slight change in PH cause my pony tank to crash within 3 hours? Well, I reversed the playing field. I put myself in the seahorses' situation.
Example: Carbon monoxide is a silent killer in our homes. It only takes a few hours to claim an entire house hold. A tank is over 100 times smaller than our homes...so that means that 8.3 VS 7.9 is just as deadly to our fish.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2456276
...so that means that 8.3 VS 7.9 is just as deadly to our fish.
I can't remember my Chemistry lessons well enough, but i'm pretty sure the pH scale is exponential. So any move at all is actually very significant.

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2456285
I can't remember my Chemistry lessons well enough, but i'm pretty sure the pH scale is exponential. So any move at all is actually very significant.
It was your comment about the PH that made me rethink my response. I've had PH fluctuations before with no ill effects, until now. So I was trying to imagine situations in our environment where small changes and are hard to notice, that can have deadly effects.

 

[1journeyman]

Will be good to see others post their pH numbers to start comparing...

 

[bronco300]

sorry for your loses lisa....i know thats rough...hopefully you can get this figured out.
as for a ph swing if drastic i would think could be very detrimental to your horses....considering they are sensitive in the first place...a normal swing of going from 8.4 to 8.2 may be fine...for seahorses? sorry i don't remember any of mine from when i had horses...but i think dwarves and larger species i dont think can be as compared.
I don't think a tank canopy will have much effect unless its sealed not letting the gases exchange.
i also doubt our living will stress them unless you have others around that are going and tapping on the tank or you are indeed cleaning around it and THINK you're far enough from it...but i'm sure it doesn't take much to push those chems over to the tank in just a bit of a breeze not felt.
but having mentioned hair algae in the first post i assume some parameters are off, even if the known cause was from overfeeding...that had to mean that ammonia went up right? and since it stayed a constant problem....could be a cause of the death?

 

[rykna]

I hope we can get to the bottom of this Lisa

 

[zeke92]

my nitrite is 0, and my ammonia test doesn't work right for some reason the colors never come out right. but the nitrite is 0. so that means ammonia is 0, correct? i'll be getting new ammonia test tomorrow tho. and testing water at my LFS for EVERYTHING they can possibly test, phosphates, calcium, anything they can test.
i'm testing ph this morning, this evening, and tonight. i will post my finds tonight. i am going to see the PH fluctuations throughout the day and see what happens if anything changes.
i'm gonna talk to my parents about maby getting a cleanup crew, like a few different types of snails but if we get two bulbs they may not wanna here about buying even more stuff atm.
anyway for now i'm gonna try the PH test for fluctuations.
one thing i thought about:
Could having lights/hood/canopy covering the tank have an effect on the gases and oxygen levels of the water? Could it be changing the amount of exchange and the amount of oxygen being added to the water?
Just thought about that last night, wasn't sure if it was anything that could be a problem but thought i would mention it to at least try to help out.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by zeke92
http:///forum/post/2456641
Could having lights/hood/canopy covering the tank have an effect on the gases and oxygen levels of the water? Could it be changing the amount of exchange and the amount of oxygen being added to the water?
Just thought....
Yes it does. That's what I was getting at. PH fluctuations can be a direct result of not having proper gas exchange in the tank. Add to that live plants and algaes sucking the O2 out of the water at night and you could have a serious depletion of oxygen in the tank.

 

[teresaq]

Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2455444
I think we have all been running into these mysterious problems. If you would be willing Lisa, could you complete and post(as many as possible):
complete water quality test from you seahorse tank
What type of substrate
Live and Artificial Plants/Rocks
Corals
Filters and Filter matter
Cleaning Schedule
Food and Food enhancers
Feeding times once? twice a day?
Do you use RO water?
How long is your light on
Temp of tank
How old is the tank
What type of pods
What types of algae
What kind of heater? Is it in the tank or filter?
What kind of stress Zyme?
Water Conditioners?
I realize this is a huge list, but there has got to be something we are all missing. A healthy fish doesn't just go belly up over night.
I'm so sorry, this has got to be very stressful for you Lisa, I'm sorry for you loss.
When my Dwarf Seahorse Tank crashed the only thing I found lacking was the PH. Instead of 8.3 it was 7.9 , but I do not believe that would be the cause for %100 death total. I did dust earlier that day, but I am always careful not to use or spray near the tanks.
Another thought, all animals need sleep. Are we some how not allowing/giving the seahorses enough rest time? Do our room lights effect the quality of their sleep? I know I can't sleep unless it is completely dark. Do our activities around the tank effect their sleep?
I know Titan was ticked when I woke him up that one day.
When underwater, how long is the daytime hours? Our lights cannot mimic the natural sunlight that beats down on the ocean, so to give our reef tanks enough light we leave our tank lights on longer.
In nature every day is not a sunny day. Water flow changes constantly. Which leads to dead areas in our tanks. As we all know these areas acumulate, and become death traps.
Nutrition is my #1 suspect for the death toll of seahorses. But not in these recent cases. What nutrients are we providing for our seahorses?
Alright SWF Seahorse Team!!!!!!! Time to kick some Fin!!!!!!!!!

~Rykna

Something I have been reading somewhere, that is missing from our seahorse tanks is an airline. Most all keepers somewhere else use an airline in thier tanks. from what i have been reading is you want large bubble, not the tiny micro ones. That would replace the o2 that is taken out by our macro algeas. hummm
T

 

[ophiura]

It is, IMO, not really necessary in most tank setups - definitely not, IMO, if you have a sump and a skimmer.

 

[1journeyman]

Agree with Ophiura.
Those big air bubbles are just that: bubbles. They don't really add much to the water except at the surface where they agitate the surface area.
Are you all running skimmers on your tanks?

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2456696
Yes it does. That's what I was getting at. PH fluctuations can be a direct result of not having proper gas exchange in the tank. Add to that live plants and algaes sucking the O2 out of the water at night and you could have a serious depletion of oxygen in the tank.
Since pods love plants, most of us have in our seahorse tanks. So what would be signs of serious oxygen depletion?
Gasping?
Strange swimming?
What do you consider proper gas exchange? How do you make sure you tank is open enough? or too much?
How easy is it for you PH to change? I've never had any problems with PH in my reef tank. It was always a level 8.3...but now it changes much more frequently...more than I'd like. What part of the reef tank would keep the PH level more consistant?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2457866
Since pods love plants, most of us have in our seahorse tanks. So what would be signs of serious oxygen depletion?
Gasping?
Strange swimming?
What do you consider proper gas exchange? How do you make sure you tank is open enough? or too much?
Well, tall tanks have low surface to volume ratios to begin with. I've been looking at pics around the web and it seems those are the preferred tanks. I'm really anxious to start getting numbers from people to explore this more.
Proper gas exchange takes place at the surface of your tank, in a splashing, flowing sump or refugium, in a skimmer, etc. Slow moving (lack of surface agitation), tall, planted tanks are ripe for oxygen depletion at night.
Pass the word to have folks start checking their pH in the morning. A lower than normal pH in the morning (just as lights come on) is a sure sign of too much CO2.
As for symptoms... no idea in a seahorse as I've never kept one. Again, however, if the death is occurring overnight, to what appears to be a healthy horse, leads me to think it's O2 related.

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2455805
We do have to consider also that not all species of seahorses are the same, so I wouldn't be quick to eliminate some factors (eg current, temperature, etc).
I have seen a few seahorses advertised as one species that, from the placement of coronet, pronouncement of spines and general coloring are probably not what they advertise. Mis-IDing could be a peice of the problem.
A larger issue, and one that leads to other larger issues, is the amount of food provided for seahorses. It is a tough thing to control correctly.
Seahorses in nature feed on pods, fish fry and any manner of crustaceans small enough to eat. Their food does not present itself regularly or easily. Their diet is lean an infrequent, by nature.
They, and their foods, were designed together. The seahorse has a primative digestive system (no stomach to store and process). Digestion happens relatively quickly and nutrients are not stored. The food sources are designed to support this digestive system.
An overfed seahorse has three issues. 1) They eat more than their system is designed to accomodate 2) They produce undigested waste 3) Water quality suffers
This is just my take and experience.

 

[zeke92]

i've got a longer tank then it is tall because everywhere i've looked i could not find a tall tank for my life.
should i add some sort of thing to create more commotion on the surface of the water? i do run a skimmer 24/7 but no sump. and my filter should be fixed soon to help with oxygenation soon too.
yesterday i did PH testing and either my PH test sucks or the PH did not change throughout the day. it was 8.4 the entire day. but the end of the day i thought it may have been slightly different, like maby 8.3 but not sure, just the color was a tad bit different but not by much.
i opened up the part of the light hoods that open up and close the last couple days just in case gas exchange has any issues in my tank. not sure if it will make much difference but at least there is some area there now for exchange to happen.
I don't think airlines are gonna do anything. there usually a waste of money. they don't do very much for the tank besides create commotion and help add a tiny bit of oxygen to the tank by doing so. but like he said, there just that, big bubbles.
I think skimmers is probably the best bet for oxygenating a tank? from what I've read at least, they oxygenate the water like it's there job (and it is). and it's also nice for the tank to have one running as well.
everyone should maby post there filtration as well? to see what people are using and such.

 

[rays862]

Lisa, I'm sorry for the heartbreak, it always bothers us when we lose an animal. I noticed you got them on 1/15 and they were in the tank on the 16th. Did you take any precautions like a freshwater dip and Formalin dip. Deworming, prazipro and fenbendazole? Even though these animals are captive-bred, they may have come from overseas and been exposed to parasites internal and/or external. I have over twenty wild collected erectus,and have had them with no losses since July/August. But they all went through the above procedures.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rays862
http:///forum/post/2458078
Lisa, I'm sorry for the heartbreak, it always bothers us when we lose an animal. I noticed you got them on 1/15 and they were in the tank on the 16th. Did you take any precautions like a freshwater dip and Formalin dip. Deworming, prazipro and fenbendazole? Even though these animals are captive-bred, they may have come from overseas and been exposed to parasites internal and/or external. I have over twenty wild collected erectus,and have had them with no losses since July/August. But they all went through the above procedures.
Ray, can you post exact specifications regarding the tanks you keep them in?
Species
Tank size
Feeding
Tank inhabitants
temp
filtration
etc.

 

[rays862]

Ninety gal. with 40 sump, Mag 12, 150 Octopus skimmer with modded needlewheel impeller, orange/red tree sponges. Asst'd snails, four atlantic cucumbers, scarlet reef hermits, two inches sand, 45 lbs LR (marco rocks) converted, and still adding. Several 10 gal fry tanks, 29 gal hex juvi tank an 60 hex fully loaded for grow out to adults (fingers crossed). Roti 5 gal culture buckets, BBS 5 gal culture buckets. They are all wild collected
Northern Erectus, fed frozen PE, frozen Hikari, frozen hikari enriched brine, and gut loaded live adult brine. All are fed twice a day rotating the above foods. Oh, temps 70-71.

 

[teresaq]

ok, I have been talking to some very experianced keepers, and all or at least most of them tell me they keep open end air lines in thier tanks. here is one responce
I use an open airline in all of my tanks to increase oxygen saturation, increase surface turbulance to help release nitrogen and keep the pH more stable. My seahorses also use the airline as their favorite hitch (they sleep on it nightly all in a row) and some seahorses love to play in the bubbles. IME an open airline is basic but essential equipment.
T

 

[monalisa]

Originally Posted by TeresaQ
http:///forum/post/2458195
ok, I have been talking to some very experianced keepers, and all of them tell me they keep open end air lines in thier tanks. here is one responce
I use an open airline in all of my tanks to increase oxygen saturation, increase surface turbulance to help release nitrogen and keep the pH more stable. My seahorses also use the airline as their favorite hitch (they sleep on it nightly all in a row) and some seahorses love to play in the bubbles. IME an open airline is basic but essential equipment.
T
Sorry, I've been very preoccupied lately and haven't had a chance to get on the board here. Thank you all so much for the advice you've given me. So far, it looks as if getting the algae out of the tank this weekend has done the trick...little by little anyway.
Teresa, I've added an open airline to my tank, just to be on the safe side. I'll let you all know how that works. I can certainly see the logic of it.
I'm home a little early today (which is how I'm able to get on to post) and I'm acclimating my new additions. Unfortunately, it looks like one of the yellow kudas is not doing so well. I'm certainly going to wait and see how she does throughout the process...they very often surprise you. Here's hoping she does great. The other 2 are doing great, swimming about the acclimation container and getting to know each other.
Again, thanks for all the replies. Ryk, sorry I didn't call back yesterday...my evenings are very hectic lately (which is a good thing

)
Lisa