lets here it for bush

[fishy.....]

Originally Posted by Phixer
It's doubtful that your opinion was influenced a "whack job" liberal professor who just so happened to teach at CU

but have you read some of his lectures? His view points are very similar to yours.
I guess the question is are you familiar with his work?
I disagree with the majority of his arguments especially his belief that the civilians killed on 9/11 were not innocent. I also do not agree that the US has committed crimes against humanity all over the world.
Frankly I am baffled why you would compare my views regarding the current administration and quagmire over in Iraq to his...... :notsure:

 

[phixer]

Originally Posted by Fishy.....
I guess the question is are you familiar with his work?
I disagree with the majority of his arguments especially his belief that the civilians killed on 9/11 were not innocent. I also do not agree that the US has committed crimes against humanity all over the world.
Frankly I am baffled why you would compare my views regarding the current administration and quagmire over in Iraq to his...... :notsure:

Have you been to Iraq and talked to some of the citizens?

 

[fishy.....]

Originally Posted by Phixer

Have you been to Iraq and talked to some of the citizens?
Not to brag but I have traveled all over the world.
Specific to the Middle Eastern region Turkey and Egypt.
Elsewhere - Most of Europe, Canada, South America, China, Japan, Thailand, Fiji, Australia to name a few.
Although I am guessing you are asking if I have been to the region that is currently embroiled in conflict? I suppose I would turn the question around and ask have you?
And what point are you trying to make in the first place?
If the civilians are happy with the situation or better off?
Ask yourself if approximately 100,000 civilian casualties since the war began, over 2,300 American soldier losses, not to mention the number of seriously wounded and maimed, would make an average Iraq citizen content with how the US is currently dealing with the conflict. Their country is embroiled in an escalating conflict that has no end in site. And until the current administration is purged and policies change it will stay that way.
If the current political climate is any indication, namely that the house and senate now belong to Democrats, due mostly to Bush's inadequate handling of the war, a Democrat will soon inherit the mess and try to clean it up. Although I pity any president, Democrat or Republican, that has to fix the mess that Bush has gotten the US into.
...

I will end with wishing you a good night and a relaxing weekend.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Fishy.....
Ask yourself if approximately 100,000 civilian casualties since the war began, .
Where does this figure come from?

 

[fishy.....]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Where does this figure come from?

Numerous sources one of the major ones being CNN. Just type in Iraq Civilian Casualties into google and read on.
Now I truly will say goodnight.

 

[phixer]

Originally Posted by Fishy.....
Not to brag but I have traveled all over the world.
Specific to the Middle Eastern region Turkey and Egypt.
Elsewhere - Most of Europe, Canada, South America, China, Japan, Thailand, Fiji, Australia to name a few.
Although I am guessing you are asking if I have been to the region that is currently embroiled in conflict? I suppose I would turn the question around and ask have you?
And what point are you trying to make in the first place?
If the civilians are happy with the situation or better off?
Ask yourself if approximately 100,000 civilian casualties since the war began, over 2,300 American soldier losses, not to mention the number of seriously wounded and maimed, would make an average Iraq citizen content with how the US is currently dealing with the conflict. Their country is embroiled in an escalating conflict that has no end in site. And until the current administration is purged and policies change it will stay that way.
If the current political climate is any indication, namely that the house and senate now belong to Democrats, due mostly to Bush's inadequate handling of the war, a Democrat will soon inherit the mess and try to clean it up. Although I pity any president, Democrat or Republican, that has to fix the mess that Bush has gotten the US into.
...

I will end with wishing you a good night and a relaxing weekend.
Fishy, as an archetect I imagine your a pretty smart guy and wont have to keep turning questions like this around much longer. Only someone with a lot of money would be able to travel to the nice list of countries you mentioned and not the armpits like Iraq or Afghanistan. So Im wondering to which war you are or were a veteran of? and why someone would voluntarily accept this duty if they objected to the reason of being there. It would be hypocritical for someone with this kind of experience to engage in the very thing they oppose. So would it be safe to say you have no combat experience?
or
Did you go to these places while on vacation and stay in nice hotels with fluffy bathrobes?

.
So without anymore spin are you speaking from combat experience or are you a spectator watching CNN from a hotel room.

 

[watson3]

Originally Posted by Fishy.....
Numerous sources one of the major ones being CNN. Just type in Iraq Civilian Casualties into google and read on.
Now I truly will say goodnight.

Thats like saying Wikipedia is a valid source..Anderson Cooper..Give me a break...He would say 300 million if he could get away with it..

 

[reefreak29]

cnn is a really good source
for lies

 

[fishy.....]

So are all of you denying the fact that Iraq experiences heavy civilian casualties every single day since the war began?
And that these casualties have added up to an unacceptable amount? Their country is embroiled in a Civil War namely due to the multiple mistakes of this administration.
And I also suppose that all news outlets including the BBC are full of crap? Interesting...... I understand that you should not believe everything that the news says but come on where do you think you live China?
And to answer your question no I am not a soldier, however I have respect for those that choose that path. I am just someone that decided to study abroad for part of my education. And no I am not rich if you saw my student loan payment each month you would quickly realize that.
As for staying in plushy hotels most of my stays around the world have involved staying with locals or in hostels. I believe that is the only true way to experience a culture.
One thing I have learned during all of my travels is that the US truly is a great country and I am quite fortunate to have been born here. That being said, I, like more and more, Americans are disgusted with the way Bush has gotten our country involved in a War that has no end, only death and misery.
In closing although it seems that some of you postulate that every soldier over in Iraq is gladly serving their country to defend American freedom over in Iraq, I have several friends that have served over in Iraq multiple times that would agree with my position wholeheartedly. That Bush is an imbecile.
I am quickly realizing I am in the minority in this thread even though in the greater context the rest of you are quickly becoming the minority.
It has been fun, I enjoyed our banter. I wish you all a good weekend - looks like more snow for Colorado.
Enjoy defending Bush among yourselves.

 

[mr. guitar]

Originally Posted by Johnny84
I pay higher gas prices then I ever had, innocent kids are fighting and dying in Iraq for what ?
For what? FREEDOM!!! Freedom isn't given you have to fight for it.
For all y'all who are in the military....
THANK YOU FOR OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mr. guitar]

Originally Posted by reefreak29
cnn is a really good source
for lies

hahahaha. You're right about that! You know what kills me is that all the media show are the bad things that happen not the good things that happen. One day CNN only told how many people were killed in Iraq but they didn't say that the troops built a church, school, and helped out a lot of people that day. STUPID MEDIA!!!!!! hahahahaha.

 

[watson3]

Originally Posted by Fishy.....
In closing although it seems that some of you postulate that every soldier over in Iraq is gladly serving their country to defend American freedom over in Iraq, I have several friends that have served over in Iraq multiple times that would agree with my position wholeheartedly.
This is only true to a certain extent..Soldiers that go and do their job may not always agree, because they do not see the whole picture..Just like citizens here in the US that do not agree..Not berating anyone lower in the chain, but there is always intel that cannot be discussed, and there are always people that dont agree with what is going on...

 

[emmitt2]

I dont know if the 100,000 civilian casualtie figure is correct but it does seem like every single day, there is an article about 20-40(or more) civilians killed by insurgent bombings or just found shot in the head.
I can't really say if those numbers would decrease by us leaving Iraq or by sending more troops. My guess is they would increase if we left but who knows

p.s.- just curious, a question for the Bush supporters on here(of which i am one). What exactly do you guys consider a reputable news source??? I highly doubt that when CNN reports that 30 iraqi civilians were found shot in the head, that that is a lie. They may slant it and not tell the good that we have done as one poster pointed out by I cant believe that the figures they are reporting regarding Iraqi casualties are lies.

 

[emmitt2]

Originally Posted by Mr. Guitar
hahahaha. You're right about that! You know what kills me is that all the media show are the bad things that happen not the good things that happen. One day CNN only told how many people were killed in Iraq but they didn't say that the troops built a church, school, and helped out a lot of people that day. STUPID MEDIA!!!!!! hahahahaha.
The troops built a church and a school in a single day???
If thats true, those have got to be some SHODDY buildings. Also, why exactly are troops building schools and churches? As many casualties as we are facing, seems they could be used more effectively FIGHTING in the areas where casualties are highest.

 

[watson3]

Originally Posted by emmitt2
The troops built a church and a school in a single day???
If thats true, those have got to be some SHODDY buildings. Also, why exactly are troops building schools and churches? As many casualties as we are facing, seems they could be used more effectively FIGHTING in the areas where casualties are highest.

1..I say FOXnews does OK...Other than that, mostly first hand knowledge..
2..What would be your timeline on a few hundred people building a school..The point is that it is good for the people..We are not there just to fight, but as a sign of our pledge to get them going again

 

[emmitt2]

Originally Posted by watson3
1..I say FOXnews does OK...Other than that, mostly first hand knowledge..
2..What would be your timeline on a few hundred people building a school..The point is that it is good for the people..We are not there just to fight, but as a sign of our pledge to get them going again
First hand knowledge??? Iraq is a pretty big country. I cant imagine you have any clue what the civilian casualty total is from "firsthand knowledge". If so, what is the total then?
Ummm, I'm not a construction worker but i've had a house built and seen enough construction projects to know that unless they are some cheap prefab kit, they cant be built in a day even by a million people. Things need to dry,set, etc... Regardless, can't civilian workers(iraqi, american, whatever) built these things for them, while the soldiers fight, at least until we stop having so many casualties?
Seems tragic to me that 1,5,10 however many American soldiers may die fighting while "hundreds" of our troops were building a school or church however many miles away. JMO

 

[watson3]

Originally Posted by emmitt2
If so, what is the total then?
Ummm, I'm not a construction worker but i've had a house built and seen enough construction projects to know that unless they are some cheap prefab kit, they cant be built in a day even by a million people.
Seems tragic to me that 1,5,10 however many American soldiers may die fighting while "hundreds" of our troops were building a school or church however many miles away. JMO

My knowledge is only how the people feel about us being there..Yes, people are dying every day, but they were before we got there, and the best that we can do while we are there is try to curtail it..It is very hard to make someone see a point of view that they cannot honestly fathom..The fact is not that we were building houses while others are dying, its the the houses and schools were being built..Havent you seen Home Makeover..A complete house in seven days..Those arent pre-fab..Not the point, but things are possible that you would not think..

 

[kmc]

So what's the answer? I keep hearing everybody wanting to blame the President for all of this but I have not heard ONE person offer a solution. So let's hear it.
Civilian casualties are too high? Are WE killing the civilians? Yes I will grant you we are probably killing a few. Are we the ones that are targeting them. I keep hearing this nonsense that our Military has to call in for permission to engage the people that are shooting at them?
I know! let's get Jimmy Carter to fix it. He knows everything. Oh, wait. seems to me I remember something about him already having his shot at it. How did THAT turn out?

 

[phixer]

The solution:
Civillian casualties are high because the type of enemy we are fighting. This type of insurgence is similar to the tactics the VC used in Vietnam. By weaving themselves into the fabric of society they use innocent people to provide their safety which makes them harder to identify and remove. Unconventional circumstances require unconventional tactics and creative strategies. The leaders of our military know what needs to be done and exactly how to do it. Their hands are often tied by the red tape created by liberal minded politicians who want to give hugs when kicking --- is required.
Very often these politicians are not trainied, qualifed or even understand the situation they are speaking about. However they carry a strong influence because of their wealth and stature, same for the actors ( remember the damage Jane Fonda did) ? Many of these officials have forgotten that they were elected to enact legislation not lead the military and have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to winning wars.
The answer, let the Commander in Chief and the military do their jobs.

 

[emmitt2]

Originally Posted by watson3
My knowledge is only how the people feel about us being there..Yes, people are dying every day, but they were before we got there, and the best that we can do while we are there is try to curtail it..It is very hard to make someone see a point of view that they cannot honestly fathom..The fact is not that we were building houses while others are dying, its the the houses and schools were being built..Havent you seen Home Makeover..A complete house in seven days..Those arent pre-fab..Not the point, but things are possible that you would not think..
I'm not trying to insult you or any other service members over there and wasnt implying or saying that you were letting soldiers die to build houses. It just seems crazy to me that, for all i know and hear, we dont have enough soldiers or equipment there to do the fighting that needs to be done but the soldiers that are there have to be building houses and schools. Like i said, it seems to me that civilians from whereever should do that until we have enough troops or are in enough control that MUCH fewer Americans are dying.
Again, i support Bush and the war but it seems to be getting alot like Vietnam. It doesnt have enough support at home for us to commit the troops and lives that it seemingly will take so we are fighting at half strength against an enemy fighting at 110% on their home turf. Add to that that they dont have to fight by the rules like we do and it makes for alot of dead americans

All that being said, I sure as hell wouldnt go there and risk my life and can barely fathom how you and all the other servicemen do it. The fact that you and others are willing to do it for us, in my book, means you should have our support NO MATTER WHAT

My critism only comes from seeing so many of you dying and thinking there has to be a better way!