Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything
- Thread starter santamonica
- Start date
clsimons29
Member
I posted a thread in the DIY section and was told about this thread so thought I would but mine here also.
I am in the process of setting up my new 240 reef tank and am getting ready to build and add an algea scurb tank with a surge device. Tank diary is under "share your aquarium" "new 240 tank diary". I have sent this design to an outside company to build.
The basic design is a +-3.5 gallon surge tank that water is pumped into via 3/4" pvc and once it fills up water will be siphoned from the tank using 1" PVC. The water will then surge to the main scrub tank and filter down over the screen material. I have designed the scrub tank using mirrored plexi-glass in all parts except the cover for the light boxes. This should help achieve good coverage of light all over the screen and getting max output from the bulbs. There will be 5 light boxes in all that are on the outside of the scrub tank and will use 60W CFL bulbs. The inside of the boxes are mirrored to get good light difusion. Water will gravity feed back to the sump. I plan on encasing the two tanks in a wood box w/hinged access doors on the front and back.
Sorry picture is small but limited on post size. Tell me what you think.
I am in the process of setting up my new 240 reef tank and am getting ready to build and add an algea scurb tank with a surge device. Tank diary is under "share your aquarium" "new 240 tank diary". I have sent this design to an outside company to build.
The basic design is a +-3.5 gallon surge tank that water is pumped into via 3/4" pvc and once it fills up water will be siphoned from the tank using 1" PVC. The water will then surge to the main scrub tank and filter down over the screen material. I have designed the scrub tank using mirrored plexi-glass in all parts except the cover for the light boxes. This should help achieve good coverage of light all over the screen and getting max output from the bulbs. There will be 5 light boxes in all that are on the outside of the scrub tank and will use 60W CFL bulbs. The inside of the boxes are mirrored to get good light difusion. Water will gravity feed back to the sump. I plan on encasing the two tanks in a wood box w/hinged access doors on the front and back.
Sorry picture is small but limited on post size. Tell me what you think.
ray j neal
Member
SantaMonicca, if you remember I placed a piece of window screen (not metal) in my wet/dry in high flow and posted the video for you ( I believe on page five). My question: how long would you estimate before I see some type of growth, any at all. I have yet to see a spec. My screen was not seeded. Thanks.
rotarymagic
Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2778525
What is this.... dinner?
...Nope, it a week of growth from just one side (the 6500K side) of my acrylic unit.
.
.
Too bad that you couldn't use it to feed tangs and such lol.
http:///forum/post/2778525
What is this.... dinner?
...Nope, it a week of growth from just one side (the 6500K side) of my acrylic unit.
.
.
Too bad that you couldn't use it to feed tangs and such lol.
santamonica
Member
Sly: Great softie setup!
Ray: You should start seeing specs on a white screen by day 3, and there should be a light brown coating by day 5. I think I know what is going on, but I wanted to let you try it first since you already had it set up. Give it two more days and tell us if you see anything.
Rotary: Actually you can, if you place the scrubber above the display; the algae will start growing out the drain and into the tank. Mine was 18" before I pulled it out.
Clsimons: Nice drawing. Here's what comes to mind:
Make sure your surge can deliver enough gph to cover the entire screen. Did you give it a trial run? Your screen looks to be about 18" wide at the top, so you'd need 18 X 35 = 630 gph. Can it do this? Also, why the tapered screen? May as well use all the space below.
As for the light on top, I'd normally say it would not help much because it will be shaded by the waterfall pipe, but since you have mirrors, it should indeed help.
Looks from the drawing that you plan on having 8" of water at the bottom. I'd use a 2" drain at the bottom to get the water out as fast as possible. The more time that the bottom of the screen is in the air, the more algae you get growing there. Algae will not grow when submerged.
Where does the fan(s) go? Since you are pulsing the flow, I'd imagine you certainly would want to dry the algae fibers as much as possible with a fan (and get cooling too).
Overall, very nice!
Ray: You should start seeing specs on a white screen by day 3, and there should be a light brown coating by day 5. I think I know what is going on, but I wanted to let you try it first since you already had it set up. Give it two more days and tell us if you see anything.
Rotary: Actually you can, if you place the scrubber above the display; the algae will start growing out the drain and into the tank. Mine was 18" before I pulled it out.
Clsimons: Nice drawing. Here's what comes to mind:
Make sure your surge can deliver enough gph to cover the entire screen. Did you give it a trial run? Your screen looks to be about 18" wide at the top, so you'd need 18 X 35 = 630 gph. Can it do this? Also, why the tapered screen? May as well use all the space below.
As for the light on top, I'd normally say it would not help much because it will be shaded by the waterfall pipe, but since you have mirrors, it should indeed help.
Looks from the drawing that you plan on having 8" of water at the bottom. I'd use a 2" drain at the bottom to get the water out as fast as possible. The more time that the bottom of the screen is in the air, the more algae you get growing there. Algae will not grow when submerged.
Where does the fan(s) go? Since you are pulsing the flow, I'd imagine you certainly would want to dry the algae fibers as much as possible with a fan (and get cooling too).
Overall, very nice!
ray j neal
Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2780335
Ray: You should start seeing specs on a white screen by day 3, and there should be a light brown coating by day 5. I think I know what is going on, but I wanted to let you try it first since you already had it set up. Give it two more days and tell us if you see anything.
It is not working what so ever at this time. What do you know that is wrong with it? Does it need more/closer lighting? What can I do to improve it?
http:///forum/post/2780335
Ray: You should start seeing specs on a white screen by day 3, and there should be a light brown coating by day 5. I think I know what is going on, but I wanted to let you try it first since you already had it set up. Give it two more days and tell us if you see anything.
It is not working what so ever at this time. What do you know that is wrong with it? Does it need more/closer lighting? What can I do to improve it?
ray j neal
Member
I would image mine is not working because the screen is slightly submerged in water. If that is the case, 1) how do the sump versions work at all, and 2) I know SOME algae grows in water, that is obvious!
santamonica
Member
Yes, it's the light. Only a small section of the bulb is actually over the screen. And over half the power of the bulb is going away from the screen. Get a 23W full spectrum clip-on CFL and point it right down on the screen, almost touching it. I don't think the submerged part is a problem because the water is rushing by, or at least it looked like it was in the video.
aztec reef
Active Member
I'm not trying to be the party pooper, and this is a great thread..however i think its geeting too much credit.when all it is is a simple biofilter that can be compared to a refuge with macro algea.
Or a remote sandbed.
Efficiency is still questionable..
All turf algeas just like any algea thrives under high nutrient, accumulated, nitrate,phosphates and all impurities.
Or via photo.
I don't believe, this can replace a dsb,waterchanges, denitrifying bacterial colonies or nitrogen nitrification.
Waterchanges are not just to reduce phosphate and nitrates and all other impure compounds.they also replenished trace elements and byproducts of used /unused elements by organisms.
Imo, this turf algea is getting fueled by excess uneaten foods and chemical supplements added,(I.e.kents iron liquid, should I mention the high lighting?
Try running 18hrs of light in dt and see what happends...
Pods as well as turf algeas,sponges, are bio-indicators. Meaning nutrient abundance in water column or on filamentous algeas.(Which is used as Energy)
Also, u recomend to rinse screen under tap water, which we all know it has a bunch of tds.(Another fuel for the turf).
Also, if the turf produces pods, due to the high nitrogen.(I.e. Phosphates,nitrates, ect.) And this pods feed on the algea. Wouldn't pods carry this toxins?
Fish/inverts and corals eat pods. Wouldn't that bring this impurities back to the tank?(Via comsuption)
Resulting in an ongoing cycle.
"97% of the organic matter in the ocean is in doc"
that makes sense, cause doc's are water soluble(molecules).that applies to any type of body of water.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a drop compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed. System.
THe ocean gets 1oo% water changes every few hours..
Yes we know that doc get removed by bacteria and all biological organisms.
Bacteria colonises on surfaces, not in water column.
* skimmer is just a nitryfying filter, which removes ammonia,nitrites,organics/inorganics. Which results in nitrogen compounds/gasses
.
Any organics/inorganics that were not metabolized will decompose and add extra fuel..
And the plot thickens..
Also, what makes u think that corals need so much food?
When reefs are nutrient_poor environments..
A reef only gets plankton,phyto whenever there's a nutrient tidal coming through,(I,e, a pollution).
I see your tank is not fully loaded.
So what are u feeding? Liverock?
More food=more excess nutrients/decomposition.
Resulting in the ideal domicile for the turf algea.
Great thread though..
Or a remote sandbed.
Efficiency is still questionable..
All turf algeas just like any algea thrives under high nutrient, accumulated, nitrate,phosphates and all impurities.
Or via photo.
I don't believe, this can replace a dsb,waterchanges, denitrifying bacterial colonies or nitrogen nitrification.
Waterchanges are not just to reduce phosphate and nitrates and all other impure compounds.they also replenished trace elements and byproducts of used /unused elements by organisms.
Imo, this turf algea is getting fueled by excess uneaten foods and chemical supplements added,(I.e.kents iron liquid, should I mention the high lighting?
Try running 18hrs of light in dt and see what happends...
Pods as well as turf algeas,sponges, are bio-indicators. Meaning nutrient abundance in water column or on filamentous algeas.(Which is used as Energy)
Also, u recomend to rinse screen under tap water, which we all know it has a bunch of tds.(Another fuel for the turf).
Also, if the turf produces pods, due to the high nitrogen.(I.e. Phosphates,nitrates, ect.) And this pods feed on the algea. Wouldn't pods carry this toxins?
Fish/inverts and corals eat pods. Wouldn't that bring this impurities back to the tank?(Via comsuption)
Resulting in an ongoing cycle.
"97% of the organic matter in the ocean is in doc"
that makes sense, cause doc's are water soluble(molecules).that applies to any type of body of water.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a drop compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed. System.
THe ocean gets 1oo% water changes every few hours..
Yes we know that doc get removed by bacteria and all biological organisms.
Bacteria colonises on surfaces, not in water column.
* skimmer is just a nitryfying filter, which removes ammonia,nitrites,organics/inorganics. Which results in nitrogen compounds/gasses
.
Any organics/inorganics that were not metabolized will decompose and add extra fuel..
And the plot thickens..
Also, what makes u think that corals need so much food?
When reefs are nutrient_poor environments..
A reef only gets plankton,phyto whenever there's a nutrient tidal coming through,(I,e, a pollution).
I see your tank is not fully loaded.
So what are u feeding? Liverock?
More food=more excess nutrients/decomposition.
Resulting in the ideal domicile for the turf algea.
Great thread though..
santamonica
Member
I'm having a little trouble understanding your wording, but I'll try to reply to them nevertheless:
it is is a simple biofilter that can be compared to a refuge with macro algea.
Yes it's a very simple bio filter.
Or a remote sandbed.
Different from RDSB, because sand does nothing for phosphates. Also sand does not remove metals, or produce oxygen, or remove CO2.
Efficiency is still questionable
No, turf algae is documented to be the most efficient macro algae per unit size or weight, when it comes to removing N and P.
All turf algeas just like any algea thrives under high nutrient, accumulated, nitrate,phosphates and all impurities
Turf algae, and even other algae in a scrubber, continue to "thrive" even when your N and P are below measurable limits on hobby test kits. This is because of the high photsynthesis power of the algae, due to the strong light very near it. Nuisance algae in your display cannot compete against algae on the scrubber, and thus they die.
I don't believe, this can replace a dsb,waterchanges, denitrifying bacterial colonies or nitrogen nitrification. Waterchanges are not just to reduce phosphate and nitrates and all other impure compounds.they also replenished trace elements and byproducts of used /unused elements by organisms.
If you read page 1, it says "Can replace waterchanges, if the purpose of the waterchange is to reduce nitrate or phosphate or algae growth." This has nothing to do with replenishing trace elements.
this turf algea is getting fueled by excess uneaten foods
That is a major source.
and chemical supplements added,(I.e.kents iron liquid
Wrong. Iron won't do anyting without Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate too.
should I mention the high lighting? Try running 18hrs of light in dt and see what happends
You are making my point. One of the advantages of a scrubber is that you CAN run additional lighting, which powers MORE photosynthesis, thus allowing MORE algae to grow in the scrubber and not in the display.
Pods as well as turf algeas,sponges, are bio-indicators. Meaning nutrient abundance in water column or on filamentous algeas.(Which is used as Energy)
You are confusing your "nutrients". See here:
Fish eat Organics.
Corals eat Organics.
Clean up crews eat Organics.
Skimmers remove Organics.
Scrubbers do not remove Organics.
Hobby test kits do not measure Organics.
Algae eat Inorganics.
Scrubbers remove Inorganics.
Hobby test kits DO measure Inorganics.
Bacteria eat both Organics and Inorganics
Also, u recomend to rinse screen under tap water, which we all know it has a bunch of tds.
The algae are already soaked with SW; very little tapwater is going to be absorbed.
if the turf produces pods, due to the high nitrogen.(I.e. Phosphates,nitrates, ect.) And this pods feed on the algea. Wouldn't pods carry this toxins? Fish/inverts and corals eat pods. Wouldn't that bring this impurities back to the tank?(Via comsuption)
Resulting in an ongoing cycle.
Same as a fuge.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a drop compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed. System. THe ocean gets 1oo% water changes every few hours. Yes we know that doc get removed by bacteria and all biological organisms.
Unsure of what you mean.
Bacteria colonises on surfaces, not in water column.
Pelagic bacteria stay in the water column.
skimmer is just a nitryfying filter, which removes ammonia, nitrites, organics/inorganics. Which results in nitrogen compounds/gasses
Completely incorrect. Skimmers do not remove ammonia, Inorganic Nitrites or Inorganic Phosphates at all. None. Skimmers only remove Organics (food). And skimmers do not perform any nitrifying function whatsoever.
Any organics/inorganics that were not metabolized will decompose and add extra fuel
Common knowledge.
div>
Also, what makes u think that corals need so much food?
How about to grow?
When reefs are nutrient_poor environments.
Reefs have much, much more food available than our tanks do.
I see your tank is not fully loaded. So what are u feeding? Liverock?
I'm adding corals every week; the pic you see is only once month after getting N and P to zero.
More food=more excess nutrients/decomposition. Resulting in the ideal domicile for the turf algea.
Depends on your definition of "food". See here before you reply:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/eb/index.php
.
.
it is is a simple biofilter that can be compared to a refuge with macro algea.
Yes it's a very simple bio filter.
Or a remote sandbed.
Different from RDSB, because sand does nothing for phosphates. Also sand does not remove metals, or produce oxygen, or remove CO2.
Efficiency is still questionable
No, turf algae is documented to be the most efficient macro algae per unit size or weight, when it comes to removing N and P.
All turf algeas just like any algea thrives under high nutrient, accumulated, nitrate,phosphates and all impurities
Turf algae, and even other algae in a scrubber, continue to "thrive" even when your N and P are below measurable limits on hobby test kits. This is because of the high photsynthesis power of the algae, due to the strong light very near it. Nuisance algae in your display cannot compete against algae on the scrubber, and thus they die.
I don't believe, this can replace a dsb,waterchanges, denitrifying bacterial colonies or nitrogen nitrification. Waterchanges are not just to reduce phosphate and nitrates and all other impure compounds.they also replenished trace elements and byproducts of used /unused elements by organisms.
If you read page 1, it says "Can replace waterchanges, if the purpose of the waterchange is to reduce nitrate or phosphate or algae growth." This has nothing to do with replenishing trace elements.
this turf algea is getting fueled by excess uneaten foods
That is a major source.
and chemical supplements added,(I.e.kents iron liquid
Wrong. Iron won't do anyting without Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate too.
should I mention the high lighting? Try running 18hrs of light in dt and see what happends
You are making my point. One of the advantages of a scrubber is that you CAN run additional lighting, which powers MORE photosynthesis, thus allowing MORE algae to grow in the scrubber and not in the display.
Pods as well as turf algeas,sponges, are bio-indicators. Meaning nutrient abundance in water column or on filamentous algeas.(Which is used as Energy)
You are confusing your "nutrients". See here:
Fish eat Organics.
Corals eat Organics.
Clean up crews eat Organics.
Skimmers remove Organics.
Scrubbers do not remove Organics.
Hobby test kits do not measure Organics.
Algae eat Inorganics.
Scrubbers remove Inorganics.
Hobby test kits DO measure Inorganics.
Bacteria eat both Organics and Inorganics
Also, u recomend to rinse screen under tap water, which we all know it has a bunch of tds.
The algae are already soaked with SW; very little tapwater is going to be absorbed.
if the turf produces pods, due to the high nitrogen.(I.e. Phosphates,nitrates, ect.) And this pods feed on the algea. Wouldn't pods carry this toxins? Fish/inverts and corals eat pods. Wouldn't that bring this impurities back to the tank?(Via comsuption)
Resulting in an ongoing cycle.
Same as a fuge.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a drop compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed. System. THe ocean gets 1oo% water changes every few hours. Yes we know that doc get removed by bacteria and all biological organisms.
Unsure of what you mean.
Bacteria colonises on surfaces, not in water column.
Pelagic bacteria stay in the water column.
skimmer is just a nitryfying filter, which removes ammonia, nitrites, organics/inorganics. Which results in nitrogen compounds/gasses
Completely incorrect. Skimmers do not remove ammonia, Inorganic Nitrites or Inorganic Phosphates at all. None. Skimmers only remove Organics (food). And skimmers do not perform any nitrifying function whatsoever.
Any organics/inorganics that were not metabolized will decompose and add extra fuel
Common knowledge.
div>
Also, what makes u think that corals need so much food?
How about to grow?
When reefs are nutrient_poor environments.
Reefs have much, much more food available than our tanks do.
I see your tank is not fully loaded. So what are u feeding? Liverock?
I'm adding corals every week; the pic you see is only once month after getting N and P to zero.
More food=more excess nutrients/decomposition. Resulting in the ideal domicile for the turf algea.
Depends on your definition of "food". See here before you reply:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/eb/index.php
.
.
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2780949
Completely incorrect. Skimmers do not remove ammonia, Inorganic Nitrites or Inorganic Phosphates at all. None. Skimmers only remove Organics (food). And skimmers do not perform any nitrifying function whatsoever.
.
I agree with just about every answer you provided to AztecReefs reply except the one in the quote and its only part of it that I disagree with.. skimmers DO remove ammonia. not through fractionation but via offgassing. the high air to water contact allows offgassing of the highly volatile ammonia in its liquid state to its more stable gaseous state. probably the most understated fact about having great surface area of air to water contact and turnover rates in aquariums.
http:///forum/post/2780949
Completely incorrect. Skimmers do not remove ammonia, Inorganic Nitrites or Inorganic Phosphates at all. None. Skimmers only remove Organics (food). And skimmers do not perform any nitrifying function whatsoever.
.
I agree with just about every answer you provided to AztecReefs reply except the one in the quote and its only part of it that I disagree with.. skimmers DO remove ammonia. not through fractionation but via offgassing. the high air to water contact allows offgassing of the highly volatile ammonia in its liquid state to its more stable gaseous state. probably the most understated fact about having great surface area of air to water contact and turnover rates in aquariums.
santamonica
Member
Possibly, as chlorine is. But of course scrubbers have that high surface area effect too, especially with a fan. But I was of course trying to speak practically, since, any ammonia/ammonium removal via skimming is probably no match for LR/bacteria.
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/2780963
I agree with just about every answer you provided to AztecReefs reply except the one in the quote and its only part of it that I disagree with.. skimmers DO remove ammonia. not through fractionation but via offgassing. the high air to water contact allows offgassing of the highly volatile ammonia in its liquid state to its more stable gaseous state. probably the most understated fact about having great surface area of air to water contact and turnover rates in aquariums.
The question really is how much NH3 does it remove? I've love to see a study on that.
http:///forum/post/2780963
I agree with just about every answer you provided to AztecReefs reply except the one in the quote and its only part of it that I disagree with.. skimmers DO remove ammonia. not through fractionation but via offgassing. the high air to water contact allows offgassing of the highly volatile ammonia in its liquid state to its more stable gaseous state. probably the most understated fact about having great surface area of air to water contact and turnover rates in aquariums.
The question really is how much NH3 does it remove? I've love to see a study on that.
santamonica
Member
Well I'm trying to get caught up with the posts; gonna have to combine a few here to get them out without postponing anymore. Seems to be a lot of interest in scrubbers that are unique, like the giant one, and the solar one. Well today is another unique one, but first here are some results feedback:
"Pong" on the RF site said "i had a lot of green hair algae growing on my screen. noticed that the red algae in my DT has lessened dramatically."
"Johnt" on the UR site said "I've always used phosphate remover. I've tried most makes but always ended back using Rowa. since running the scrubber I've stopped the phosphate reactor and despite the scrubber not yet being at the Turf Algae stage the phosphate readings are dropping."
And now for the first screen on any thread to use LEDs! "Snailrider" on the AC site built it:
He knows that the part of the screen underwater will not contribute, so he made sure the part above the water had enough size to handle things. We'll see how LED's work!
.
.
.
"Pong" on the RF site said "i had a lot of green hair algae growing on my screen. noticed that the red algae in my DT has lessened dramatically."
"Johnt" on the UR site said "I've always used phosphate remover. I've tried most makes but always ended back using Rowa. since running the scrubber I've stopped the phosphate reactor and despite the scrubber not yet being at the Turf Algae stage the phosphate readings are dropping."
And now for the first screen on any thread to use LEDs! "Snailrider" on the AC site built it:
He knows that the part of the screen underwater will not contribute, so he made sure the part above the water had enough size to handle things. We'll see how LED's work!
.
.
.
aztec reef
Active Member
Let's play,
Let me touch all the points.
(Note: english is the language)
1. A "remote sandbed" is usually a 5g bucket.thus making it a rdsb.
2. "Sand does nothing for phosphates"
"Also sand does not remove metals""or produce oxygen" or remove co2"
Wrong!! A dsb is what I'm refering to, not just sand grains.
Actually a dsb removes, or should I say metabolizes: metals,nitrogen,impurities,gold, (i.e.dead animals,plants,bacteria,excess foods,fish waste,urine, feces,invertebrate waste,slime,and any other compounds,toxins. Via nitryfication/denitryfication processes.
Actually the top layers of sandbed are aerobic, thus resulting in nitryfication.
Now, nitryfication filters such as a trickle,fluidbed filters,skimmers, hob filters,lr's surfaces,ect.produce oxygen to an extent.other things that produce oxygen are;powerheads,kalkwasser drip,buffering agents,vigorously water surface agitation, opening up a window, turning on a fan.
All biological organisms produce oxygen as a byproduct of photosyntesis and co2 comsumption. Aka respiration process.thus all micro algeas,macro algeas,plankton, phytoplakton,plants,animals,corals,trees,forrests, use photo as their main conductor of oxygen. Similar to the green house gas effect on earth. When photo is absent,the process changes. And that's when the bioorganisms use c02 from tank and atmosphere.or excess nutrients in water column.also kalkwasser additions at dark removes c02
Thus producing/using more available oxygen.
3. "Turf algea is documented to be the most efficient macroalgea, when it comes to removing nitrates/phosphates".
Well, that's an oxymorron, of course it will thrive under high levels of N/P.
What if your tank has little to none N/P levels? It would suck, right?
Guess where 98% of nitrates/phosphates come from?
Saltmixes,foodstuffs,chemicals,impurities,unmetabolized compounds, detrius,and so on.
I don't have to explain the nitrogen cycle to u, do I?
4. All algeas will thrive on photo and on high nutrients in water. High photo periods±high nutrients, amplifies turf,macro,micro, nuisance algeas by the ten folds.
"Nuisance algea in display cannot compete against algea on scrubber"
Wrong!! Nuisance algeas would have a good chance if they'd comsume as much N/P as turf and if were given long periods of light, as turf algea is getting. Right?
The only problem with that, is that is not very appeling to have turf,hairy,cyano,filamentous algeas thriving on DT
. As a side note; mh lighting on a dsb and lr, would keep any nuisance algea thriving.if naturally energy flux equillibrates, and metabolic food source increases.
5."Can replace water changes, if the pourpose of wc's is to dilute N/P and algea growth"
Sure it can,cause turf algea would comsume N/P that otherwise would be present in water column.
Same applies if your tank has the right amount of microbial processes,mineralization,metabolic processes. Such as various nitryfying/ denitryfying processes, photosyntesis, carbonization processes,self regulating buffering capacity, resident sulfur reduction and regeneration.
All this natural energy flux and environmental equillibria, out-competes any other type of filtration in closed systems.
6. " Uneaten foods is the major fuel source of turf algeas"
So, pretty much you're feeding the algea not your tank.cause if your tank would have an use for the excess foods, you wouldn't have a N/P accumulation problem.but since N/P are mainly introduced to tank in such high amounts that your ecosystem can't endure...resulting in the accumulation of nitrogen and phosphorous compounds in water, that's more than enough supply to maintain any type of algeas, not to mention the excess lighting. You would think that a continious harvest of turf algea, would result in 0 Nitrates and 0 Phosphates. Regarless of feeding portions.
Since N/P are the primary fuel source for turf algea. Cause it seems that nitrifycation is working fine for u. Cause you have no ammonia,nitrites in tank, do u?
However denitryfication is lagging, otherwise there would be NO N/P as byproducts, right?
7. "Iron won't do anything without inorganic N/P"
What would inorganic N/P do without iron?
Iron is an inorganic compound too. So more fuel to the fire, right?
8. " You're making my point,one of the advantages of a scrubber is that you can run additional lighting, increasing photo process yada-yada".
Isn't that aka as the conventional refugin with macro algea?
9. There's no confusion here.
Let me touch all the points.
(Note: english is the language)
1. A "remote sandbed" is usually a 5g bucket.thus making it a rdsb.
2. "Sand does nothing for phosphates"
"Also sand does not remove metals""or produce oxygen" or remove co2"
Wrong!! A dsb is what I'm refering to, not just sand grains.
Actually a dsb removes, or should I say metabolizes: metals,nitrogen,impurities,gold, (i.e.dead animals,plants,bacteria,excess foods,fish waste,urine, feces,invertebrate waste,slime,and any other compounds,toxins. Via nitryfication/denitryfication processes.
Actually the top layers of sandbed are aerobic, thus resulting in nitryfication.
Now, nitryfication filters such as a trickle,fluidbed filters,skimmers, hob filters,lr's surfaces,ect.produce oxygen to an extent.other things that produce oxygen are;powerheads,kalkwasser drip,buffering agents,vigorously water surface agitation, opening up a window, turning on a fan.
All biological organisms produce oxygen as a byproduct of photosyntesis and co2 comsumption. Aka respiration process.thus all micro algeas,macro algeas,plankton, phytoplakton,plants,animals,corals,trees,forrests, use photo as their main conductor of oxygen. Similar to the green house gas effect on earth. When photo is absent,the process changes. And that's when the bioorganisms use c02 from tank and atmosphere.or excess nutrients in water column.also kalkwasser additions at dark removes c02
Thus producing/using more available oxygen.
3. "Turf algea is documented to be the most efficient macroalgea, when it comes to removing nitrates/phosphates".
Well, that's an oxymorron, of course it will thrive under high levels of N/P.
What if your tank has little to none N/P levels? It would suck, right?
Guess where 98% of nitrates/phosphates come from?
Saltmixes,foodstuffs,chemicals,impurities,unmetabolized compounds, detrius,and so on.
I don't have to explain the nitrogen cycle to u, do I?
4. All algeas will thrive on photo and on high nutrients in water. High photo periods±high nutrients, amplifies turf,macro,micro, nuisance algeas by the ten folds.
"Nuisance algea in display cannot compete against algea on scrubber"
Wrong!! Nuisance algeas would have a good chance if they'd comsume as much N/P as turf and if were given long periods of light, as turf algea is getting. Right?
The only problem with that, is that is not very appeling to have turf,hairy,cyano,filamentous algeas thriving on DT
. As a side note; mh lighting on a dsb and lr, would keep any nuisance algea thriving.if naturally energy flux equillibrates, and metabolic food source increases.
5."Can replace water changes, if the pourpose of wc's is to dilute N/P and algea growth"
Sure it can,cause turf algea would comsume N/P that otherwise would be present in water column.
Same applies if your tank has the right amount of microbial processes,mineralization,metabolic processes. Such as various nitryfying/ denitryfying processes, photosyntesis, carbonization processes,self regulating buffering capacity, resident sulfur reduction and regeneration.
All this natural energy flux and environmental equillibria, out-competes any other type of filtration in closed systems.
6. " Uneaten foods is the major fuel source of turf algeas"
So, pretty much you're feeding the algea not your tank.cause if your tank would have an use for the excess foods, you wouldn't have a N/P accumulation problem.but since N/P are mainly introduced to tank in such high amounts that your ecosystem can't endure...resulting in the accumulation of nitrogen and phosphorous compounds in water, that's more than enough supply to maintain any type of algeas, not to mention the excess lighting. You would think that a continious harvest of turf algea, would result in 0 Nitrates and 0 Phosphates. Regarless of feeding portions.
Since N/P are the primary fuel source for turf algea. Cause it seems that nitrifycation is working fine for u. Cause you have no ammonia,nitrites in tank, do u?
However denitryfication is lagging, otherwise there would be NO N/P as byproducts, right?
7. "Iron won't do anything without inorganic N/P"
What would inorganic N/P do without iron?
Iron is an inorganic compound too. So more fuel to the fire, right?
8. " You're making my point,one of the advantages of a scrubber is that you can run additional lighting, increasing photo process yada-yada".
Isn't that aka as the conventional refugin with macro algea?
9. There's no confusion here.
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2781011
Possibly, as chlorine is. But of course scrubbers have that high surface area effect too, especially with a fan. But I was of course trying to speak practically, since, any ammonia/ammonium removal via skimming is probably no match for LR/bacteria.
I was just clarifying because you stated skimers dont remove any at all.
absolutly a scrubber has high surface area and air echange rate that will assist in off gassing of volatile chemicals like chlorine or ammonia. it was the statement of "none at all" that bugged me, thats all.
http:///forum/post/2781011
Possibly, as chlorine is. But of course scrubbers have that high surface area effect too, especially with a fan. But I was of course trying to speak practically, since, any ammonia/ammonium removal via skimming is probably no match for LR/bacteria.
I was just clarifying because you stated skimers dont remove any at all.
absolutly a scrubber has high surface area and air echange rate that will assist in off gassing of volatile chemicals like chlorine or ammonia. it was the statement of "none at all" that bugged me, thats all.
aztec reef
Active Member
It goes without saying that animals,mammals,corals,humans,plants,algeas, bacterial colonies ect.comsume organics.
Skimmers do remove organics/inorganics via nitrification,this includes the top layers of a dsb,a hob,lr's surface. U know? Surface , Water , air ,effect.
"Hobby test do not measure organics".
Even if organics could be measured, it would be the most inaccurate test kit.cause u reallly don't know how much organics/inorganics are being metabolized via nitrifying/denitryfying bacterial. Colonies.
"Algea eat inorganics, scrubbers eat inorganics,hobby test kits do test inorganics"
That's cool to know,but isn't inorganics things like, supplements,chemicals,impurities,nitrogen,silicid acid,accumulated/ decomposed detrius,additives,phosphates and all other impurities available in water column.
"Scrubbers eat inorganics",
as well as bacteria in hob filter,deep inside lr, and lower parts of a dsb.
"Hobby test kits do measure inorganics"
U mean in the form of ammonia,nitrites,nitrates,phosphates,cooper,iron,c02, ect?
11." The algea are already soaked in sw, very little tap will absorb"
You know what consecuences that would bring? What happends when u rinse marine surfaces colonized with algeas in tap?
Its a retardation effect.
12. "Same as a fuge"
Wrong!! A fuge does not get constanly overfed by large amounts of food.
The nitrogen cycle's energy flux is dependant on the daily available ammonia/nutrients conversion by organisms via ammonification.
In short;the less available N/P in water column, the less abundance of pods or turf algeas, thus minimizing the effects of infestation due to pollution..
13. "Unsure of what u mean"
I mean just what i said.the ocean is. a self sufficient ecosystem, that gets natural water changes constantly via, run-offs of lakes,rivers,rain,glacier melts ect.
Docs are used by numerous bacterias and biological organisms
.meaning: via biogeochemical pathways.
That's how u achive balance and equillibrium in the ocean.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a droplit compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed system
.
Because there is a tremendous amount of sediment surface and water volume in the oceans,which can easily overcome the defficientcies.
.this is not true in enclosed system.
14. "Pelagic bacteria stay in water column"
This is where the regular water changes come in hand.add a skimmer and other nitrifiers. The more filtration sources the bettter(of course).
15. Why feed corals that much?
" How about growth"
That sounds good,too bad coral's primary energy source is via photo. U know? Zooxanthellae.
16. "Reefs have much, much more food. Available than our tanks"
Oh,really?. Keep in mind that in an enclosed system, the quicker and more efficiently large amounts of nutrients are reduced to energy, the more superior its water quality.
The oceans can withstand the skewed form of nitrogen cycles. But Not an aquarium,in the long run.
I would recomend a little recap of the microbial energy paths.in order to achive balance/efficientcy.
Last but not least,take a look at the 2 most important biological processes of all marine organisms.
*respiration.
*photosintesis.
(Not high nutrient abundance)
That's why ocean waters appear blue.blue=pristine water and poor nutrient abundance.
Whether it is a photosyntetic coral or in micro/macro algeas. All reef organisms have developed an ability to use photons I.e. Light energy to convert inorganic substances into organics. This is aka photosyntesis. This is the most important process in a reef as it produces oxygen as a byproduct(autotrophic).
Skimmers do remove organics/inorganics via nitrification,this includes the top layers of a dsb,a hob,lr's surface. U know? Surface , Water , air ,effect.
"Hobby test do not measure organics".
Even if organics could be measured, it would be the most inaccurate test kit.cause u reallly don't know how much organics/inorganics are being metabolized via nitrifying/denitryfying bacterial. Colonies.
"Algea eat inorganics, scrubbers eat inorganics,hobby test kits do test inorganics"
That's cool to know,but isn't inorganics things like, supplements,chemicals,impurities,nitrogen,silicid acid,accumulated/ decomposed detrius,additives,phosphates and all other impurities available in water column.
"Scrubbers eat inorganics",
as well as bacteria in hob filter,deep inside lr, and lower parts of a dsb.
"Hobby test kits do measure inorganics"
U mean in the form of ammonia,nitrites,nitrates,phosphates,cooper,iron,c02, ect?
11." The algea are already soaked in sw, very little tap will absorb"
You know what consecuences that would bring? What happends when u rinse marine surfaces colonized with algeas in tap?
Its a retardation effect.
12. "Same as a fuge"
Wrong!! A fuge does not get constanly overfed by large amounts of food.
The nitrogen cycle's energy flux is dependant on the daily available ammonia/nutrients conversion by organisms via ammonification.
In short;the less available N/P in water column, the less abundance of pods or turf algeas, thus minimizing the effects of infestation due to pollution..
13. "Unsure of what u mean"
I mean just what i said.the ocean is. a self sufficient ecosystem, that gets natural water changes constantly via, run-offs of lakes,rivers,rain,glacier melts ect.
Docs are used by numerous bacterias and biological organisms
.meaning: via biogeochemical pathways.
That's how u achive balance and equillibrium in the ocean.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a droplit compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed system
.
Because there is a tremendous amount of sediment surface and water volume in the oceans,which can easily overcome the defficientcies.
.this is not true in enclosed system.
14. "Pelagic bacteria stay in water column"
This is where the regular water changes come in hand.add a skimmer and other nitrifiers. The more filtration sources the bettter(of course).
15. Why feed corals that much?
" How about growth"
That sounds good,too bad coral's primary energy source is via photo. U know? Zooxanthellae.
16. "Reefs have much, much more food. Available than our tanks"
Oh,really?. Keep in mind that in an enclosed system, the quicker and more efficiently large amounts of nutrients are reduced to energy, the more superior its water quality.
The oceans can withstand the skewed form of nitrogen cycles. But Not an aquarium,in the long run.
I would recomend a little recap of the microbial energy paths.in order to achive balance/efficientcy.
Last but not least,take a look at the 2 most important biological processes of all marine organisms.
*respiration.
*photosintesis.
(Not high nutrient abundance)
That's why ocean waters appear blue.blue=pristine water and poor nutrient abundance.
Whether it is a photosyntetic coral or in micro/macro algeas. All reef organisms have developed an ability to use photons I.e. Light energy to convert inorganic substances into organics. This is aka photosyntesis. This is the most important process in a reef as it produces oxygen as a byproduct(autotrophic).
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2781137
The question really is how much NH3 does it remove? I've love to see a study on that.
some is about as clear as I can get on that.
honestly I dont know the answer. most likley not enough to consider a highly signifigant reducer, but when it comes down to it I'll take any advantage I can get when it comes to reducing waste and boosting oxygen levels in my aquarium.
consider this, back before dechlorinators and tap water detoxifyers were in common use, the best way to remove chlorine was to aerate the bucket for 24 hours. reducing the amount to zero. so in 24 hours the volatile compound will go from enough to keep water potable to zero (or below testable amounts). people have done the same with ammonia in fresh mixed salt water, magnesium, one of the ingredients in our salt mixes often puts testable amounts of ammonia into our brand new water as ammonia is used to make the magnesium utelized in our salt mixes. after 24 hours of aeration all ammonia was no longer present, so say in a 5g bucket at .02 ppm nh3 all ammonia had offgassed in 24hours. that is a signifigant change. Defiantly not enough to base an entire filtration system off. but an air stone in a bucket contributes signifigantly less air contact and turnover rate than a skimmer will. so I would say the skimmers NH3 removal capacity via offgassing is a quantifiable amount. of course the scrubber as well has signifigant air to water contact and the fan units have even higher offgassing capacity that the non fan scrubber.
http:///forum/post/2781137
The question really is how much NH3 does it remove? I've love to see a study on that.
some is about as clear as I can get on that.
honestly I dont know the answer. most likley not enough to consider a highly signifigant reducer, but when it comes down to it I'll take any advantage I can get when it comes to reducing waste and boosting oxygen levels in my aquarium.
consider this, back before dechlorinators and tap water detoxifyers were in common use, the best way to remove chlorine was to aerate the bucket for 24 hours. reducing the amount to zero. so in 24 hours the volatile compound will go from enough to keep water potable to zero (or below testable amounts). people have done the same with ammonia in fresh mixed salt water, magnesium, one of the ingredients in our salt mixes often puts testable amounts of ammonia into our brand new water as ammonia is used to make the magnesium utelized in our salt mixes. after 24 hours of aeration all ammonia was no longer present, so say in a 5g bucket at .02 ppm nh3 all ammonia had offgassed in 24hours. that is a signifigant change. Defiantly not enough to base an entire filtration system off. but an air stone in a bucket contributes signifigantly less air contact and turnover rate than a skimmer will. so I would say the skimmers NH3 removal capacity via offgassing is a quantifiable amount. of course the scrubber as well has signifigant air to water contact and the fan units have even higher offgassing capacity that the non fan scrubber.
santamonica
Member
Aztec: No time for playing, but will correct a few point (this time). You should be posting on reefs.org if you want to argue, since you obviously are just trying to gain attention by typing as much text as you can think of. And I'll be ignoring any further posts from you, so I won't here anything else you say. If anyone else wishes to do the same, just go into your UserCP, and click on Buddy/Ignore list, and add Aztec Reef in the ignore box.
Actually a dsb removes, or should I say metabolizes: metals,nitrogen,impurities,gold,
Not correct. DSB's only process N.
nitryfication filters such as a trickle,fluidbed filters,skimmers, hob filters,lr's surfaces,ect.produce oxygen to an extent.other things that produce oxygen are;powerheads,kalkwasser drip,buffering agents,vigorously water surface agitation, opening up a window, turning on a fan.
LR, kalk, and buffering agents produce no oxygen whatsoever. The others you mention also don't "produce" oxygen; they simply provide more air/water exchange.
All biological organisms produce oxygen as a byproduct of photosyntesis and co2 comsumption. Aka respiration process.thus all micro algeas,macro algeas,plankton, phytoplakton,plants,ANIMALS,CORALS,trees,forrests, use photo as their main conductor of oxygen.
I think you'll find that if you ask a middle school biology student, they'll tell you that animals don't produce oxygen. Corals don't either.
What if your tank has little to none N/P levels? It would suck, right?
Not relevent to anything posted here in the last few months.
Nuisance algeas would have a good chance if they'd comsume as much N/P as turf and if were given long periods of light, as turf algea is getting. Right?
Wrong. A scrubber is out-of-the-water, thus allowing turbulent flow across it, and reducing the amount of water blocking the light. If you put the scrubber screen under water, it will stop growing.
5."Can replace water changes, if the pourpose of wc's is to dilute N/P and algea growth"
Those are not my words you are quoting.
You would think that a continious harvest of turf algea, would result in 0 Nitrates and 0 Phosphates. Regarless of feeding portions.
Correct. That's how mine is now.
However denitryfication is lagging, otherwise there would be NO N/P as byproducts, right?
You've worked yourself into a circle somehow, and I can't help you get out.
It goes without saying that animals,mammals,corals,humans,plants,algeas, bacterial colonies ect.comsume organics.
Algae does not consume organics, they consume Inorganic Nitrate, and Inorganic Phosphate (for our purposes here).
Skimmers do remove organics/inorganics via nitrification,
Absolutely, completely wrong.
"Algea eat inorganics, scrubbers eat inorganics,hobby test kits do test inorganics"
You are mis-quoting again, and typing your own words. The above quote should end with "do NOT test Inorganics".
You know what consecuences that would bring? What happends when u rinse marine surfaces colonized with algeas in tap? Its a retardation effect.
That's what you want. You want to kill the pods growing in the scrubber, otherwise the pods will eat all the algae. Tap does not harm the algae itself, as scrubber can operate just as well in FW tanks.
A fuge does not get constanly overfed by large amounts of food.
Oh no, that just never ever ever happens in this hobby. Nobody over feeds in this hobby. Other hobbies maybe, but not this one.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a droplit compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed system
No, it's not less compared to an enclosed system, it the SAME as the enclosed system... both are 1.6
This is where the regular water changes come in hand.add a skimmer and other nitrifiers. The more filtration sources the bettter(of course).
No, it's not better. Skimmer remove Organic Nitrate and Organic Phosphate (food) from the water, but leave in Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate (which feed algae); scrubbers do the opposite: They remove Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate, and leave in Organic Nitrate and Organic Phosphate (food).
ass="quote-container">
That sounds good,too bad coral's primary energy source is via photo.
Wrong. Guess you didn't read the links I gave you.
Keep in mind that in an enclosed system, the quicker and more efficiently large amounts of nutrients are reduced to energy, the more superior its water quality.
I wish English were your first language, so I would be able to understand this.
That's why ocean waters appear blue.blue=pristine water and poor nutrient abundance.
Wow, where do I start.
Anyways, have a good life, I won't be seeing anything else you type.
.
.
Actually a dsb removes, or should I say metabolizes: metals,nitrogen,impurities,gold,
Not correct. DSB's only process N.
nitryfication filters such as a trickle,fluidbed filters,skimmers, hob filters,lr's surfaces,ect.produce oxygen to an extent.other things that produce oxygen are;powerheads,kalkwasser drip,buffering agents,vigorously water surface agitation, opening up a window, turning on a fan.
LR, kalk, and buffering agents produce no oxygen whatsoever. The others you mention also don't "produce" oxygen; they simply provide more air/water exchange.
All biological organisms produce oxygen as a byproduct of photosyntesis and co2 comsumption. Aka respiration process.thus all micro algeas,macro algeas,plankton, phytoplakton,plants,ANIMALS,CORALS,trees,forrests, use photo as their main conductor of oxygen.
I think you'll find that if you ask a middle school biology student, they'll tell you that animals don't produce oxygen. Corals don't either.
What if your tank has little to none N/P levels? It would suck, right?
Not relevent to anything posted here in the last few months.
Nuisance algeas would have a good chance if they'd comsume as much N/P as turf and if were given long periods of light, as turf algea is getting. Right?
Wrong. A scrubber is out-of-the-water, thus allowing turbulent flow across it, and reducing the amount of water blocking the light. If you put the scrubber screen under water, it will stop growing.
5."Can replace water changes, if the pourpose of wc's is to dilute N/P and algea growth"
Those are not my words you are quoting.
You would think that a continious harvest of turf algea, would result in 0 Nitrates and 0 Phosphates. Regarless of feeding portions.
Correct. That's how mine is now.
However denitryfication is lagging, otherwise there would be NO N/P as byproducts, right?
You've worked yourself into a circle somehow, and I can't help you get out.
It goes without saying that animals,mammals,corals,humans,plants,algeas, bacterial colonies ect.comsume organics.
Algae does not consume organics, they consume Inorganic Nitrate, and Inorganic Phosphate (for our purposes here).
Skimmers do remove organics/inorganics via nitrification,
Absolutely, completely wrong.
"Algea eat inorganics, scrubbers eat inorganics,hobby test kits do test inorganics"
You are mis-quoting again, and typing your own words. The above quote should end with "do NOT test Inorganics".
You know what consecuences that would bring? What happends when u rinse marine surfaces colonized with algeas in tap? Its a retardation effect.
That's what you want. You want to kill the pods growing in the scrubber, otherwise the pods will eat all the algae. Tap does not harm the algae itself, as scrubber can operate just as well in FW tanks.
A fuge does not get constanly overfed by large amounts of food.
Oh no, that just never ever ever happens in this hobby. Nobody over feeds in this hobby. Other hobbies maybe, but not this one.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a droplit compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed system
No, it's not less compared to an enclosed system, it the SAME as the enclosed system... both are 1.6
This is where the regular water changes come in hand.add a skimmer and other nitrifiers. The more filtration sources the bettter(of course).
No, it's not better. Skimmer remove Organic Nitrate and Organic Phosphate (food) from the water, but leave in Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate (which feed algae); scrubbers do the opposite: They remove Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate, and leave in Organic Nitrate and Organic Phosphate (food).
ass="quote-container">
That sounds good,too bad coral's primary energy source is via photo.
Wrong. Guess you didn't read the links I gave you.
Keep in mind that in an enclosed system, the quicker and more efficiently large amounts of nutrients are reduced to energy, the more superior its water quality.
I wish English were your first language, so I would be able to understand this.
That's why ocean waters appear blue.blue=pristine water and poor nutrient abundance.
Wow, where do I start.
Anyways, have a good life, I won't be seeing anything else you type.
.
.