Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

santamonica

Member
stdreb27 I hope I'm wrong but it looks like you made the newly-discovered clogging design :(. Here is the update post I posted a few days ago:
It's been recently discovered that the screen-wrapped-around-pipe design will clog up and stop working when the algae gets thick. It grows heavily where the screen is wrapped at the top, and blocks further flow from going down the screen. Instead the flow starts going out the ends, completely missing the entire screen, thus killing what algae was previously growing on screen. It affects different screens in varying amounts; the higher the lights are (thus closer to the wrap), the more it clogs. This is the type I'm referring to:
 

santamonica

Member
btwk12 yes get that metal out; no telling if there is copper mixed in there somewhere. Here is screen info for you:
Try going to hardware stores, craft stores, garden stores, sewing stores, or just get one of these online:
This "plastic canvas" one might be easier to get into the slot after cleaning, and the edges will not wear; it also will hold it's shape so that a solid frame may not be needed:
http://www.everythingplasticcanvas.c...h-12-x-18.aspx
This "rug canvas" is made from fiber so that algae sticks to it the best; but it does not hold its shape when wet, so it will need a solid frame. Also, the edges will wear, so the frame will have to hold the edges down:
This "tank divider" is mentioned here because you can get it in any LFS, and because they come with clip-on edges that are great frames for any screen. However the screen material itself is very thin and smooth (needs sanding) with not many holes, thus during cleaning it's hard to get algae to stay on the screen:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategor...nk%20divider/0
Overall the rug canvas will grow the most algae the quickest, but takes the most work to keep it in place. The tank divider is the easiest and most available, but you'll get a few days of no filtering after cleanings. I think the plastic canvas is best for most people; it holds algae on the screen after cleanings, and it holds it's shape when wet and when cleaning in the sink.
Many people ask about using the fiberglass screen from their windows (never use metal!). The main problem of this kind of "soft" screen will be getting it into the slot in the waterfall pipe; it will bend and fold too much. One way around this is to loop it around the waterfall pipe and attach it to itself, instead of slipping it into a slot. In this case you don't need a slot; a series of holes will work. But this screen door method is only a last resort though, and will not work that well long-term, because the algae will start blocking flow out of the pipe since it's wrapped around it (it will need to always be trimmed.)
Some people try to use acrylic or plastic sheet. They will grow, but the problem is that when you clean it, everything comes off and you have to start growing from scratch again. This means you get three or four days of zero filtering. You can try drilling hundreds of small holes in the sheet, but it's easier to just find a screen.
 

hefner413

Active Member
Definitely - get that rust out ASAP. I would do a water change and run carbon too to be safe.
I got the plastic canvas from the crafts/fabric section (wal.mart has them).
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2824811
stdreb27 I hope I'm wrong but it looks like you made the newly-discovered clogging design :(. Here is the update post I posted a few days ago:
It's been recently discovered that the screen-wrapped-around-pipe design will clog up and stop working when the algae gets thick. It grows heavily where the screen is wrapped at the top, and blocks further flow from going down the screen. Instead the flow starts going out the ends, completely missing the entire screen, thus killing what algae was previously growing on screen. It affects different screens in varying amounts; the higher the lights are (thus closer to the wrap), the more it clogs. This is the type I'm referring to:

I considered that, the screen is sown up on the ends. to the pipe, like a U. It is a waterfall design, with a completely open pipe into the water. so I'm hoping if it does restrict flow that it overflows down the pipe. While algae growth isn't enough to block it. Between cleanings.
 

santamonica

Member
Results Of The Day:
"pong" on the RP site: "Still havent cleaned my screen... and no water change... no problems! im just killing the pods by dosing kalk and all my top-off on the screen (since early october, no cleaning of the screen, last water change... august? september?)
"jski711" on the RS site: "the last phosphate test I had done at the lfs it was undetectable on the hanna phosphate photometer, and I only have the one side of my screen lit for now!!!"
"col" on the UR site: "Todays tests are P = 0.03, N = 5. the algae looks the same, green slime. Skimmer is still running 24/7, feeding 2-3 times a day for fat fish. Algae on the rocks is subsiding, and water conditions have never been better."
 

santamonica

Member
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Part 1 of 3
Call For Builders/Sellers
Here's a note to anyone who would like to start building and selling scrubbers. I think there are plenty of people who would like to buy one, but they don't have the time or ability to build them (there are several of these on every thread I'm on, who have asked me to build one for them), or they don't even know scrubbers exist but could use one. And currently there's no place to buy scrubbers. So it's a good time for you to put some buckets, acrylics, or sump screens together and offer them for sale, starting out by advertising on this forum.
I recommend that you start out selling buckets or sump screens, instead of acrylic units. The price of an acrylic unit is going to be much higher, and most beginners are not going to jump in and pay the extra money for one. Keep in mind that most folks buy small less-costly tanks first, and move up from there. That makes them feel safer, since they have less to lose when starting. Once they become comfortable with their small tanks, they get bigger ones for more money. This is how you shoud approach scrubber sales; small and cheap first, and then go from there if they are happy.
Since the bucket version is not very beautiful, it will just be a product for people who have nuisance algae problems in their tanks and they just want to try anything to get the algae out. They might even view the buckets as temporary; they can use it until the algae is gone, then put it in the closet or lend it to a friend.
The bucket version is certainly a good version for you to start with, especially by mail order, since it's self-contained and does not need elaborate installation at the customer's house (they just drop the pump in the tank/sump, and go.) And very important: The bucket can be used as its own shipping container, with it's own lid. And you almost certainly would want to include a pump with it (with an adjustable flow), so there would be no guessing on the customer's part as to what pump they should get. Something like a Hydor L40 Pump (740 gph), with a built-in flow adjust.
Adjustable flow is important, because you don't know how high up (head) the pump will have to push when the customer starts using it. Or, they may have a long run from the bucket to the tank. Also, the pump may get weaker (or the pipe slot may get clogged) with time, so being able to turn it up is a plus.
If you decide to sell locally, and install the scrubbers yourself, then you can also consider selling in-sump or above-sump screens. Since these are very custom installations, you can't expect a customer to figure it out for themselves. The light placement and water flow need to be setup by someone who's done it before.
As for a wavetimer, I'd recommend not putting one in. It's not proven yet just how effective it might be. What is proven is that it adds power cords and complexity, and decisions about what time to set it to (customers don't like making decisions.) Plus, wavemaker timers are not cheap; the one I used cost $50. That's a large portion of the total cost of a scrubber.
Also, I'd hold off on offering or even mentioning a fan. There is not much room on a bucket to easily clip on a fan, and it's just extra noise; it might even be viewed as a danger for families with kids. Remember, a fan is also not proven how effective it might help the scrubbing process. Plus, a fan will really chill the water; some reefkeepers want this, but some beginners will not. Only mention a fan if they are having heat issues with their tank, or if they currently use a chiller. Since fans are so cheap and easy to get, they can always buy and use one later.
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santamonica

Member
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Part 2 of 3
Call For Builders/Sellers
Although you may have built your first scrubber with parts you already had, if you are going to be building several of these to sell, you'll be needing to buy everything new. A basic bucket-build includes the bucket, waterfall pipe, vinyl tubing, pump, screen, clips to hold the pipe to the bucket, lights, light timer (set to 18 hours ON), and the drain for the bucket. I'd probably include about as much vinyl tubing as you can fit into the bucket for shipping. (Customers are much happier when they don't have to make an unplanned trip to the store for tubing.)
My first tally came up to about $60 for the parts; then you need to add the pump. The one linked above is $80, for a total of $140. So you could sell the whole thing for $199, which would be fair for the amount of work you put in to make it (mostly, cutting the slot). Just print up an instruction sheet for the customer to read, and you are done! Now I'm sure if you searched around, or bought in bulk, you could cut the cost in half. But as far as the customer's cost is concerned, I think something like $199 is a good deal to wipe out algae in their tanks. But you can set your own price.
So making the scrubbers is easy enough. Where do you market and sell them? The obvious place to start is by letting people on the forums know you have them, starting with forums that have current scrubber threads like this one. Most forums also have a buy/sell section, which is a good place. The next step might be a banner ad on these forums, and then maybe you could buy a whole sponsor-forum. Next I'd target the LFS: Let them use a bucket for one of their problem tanks (of proper size) to prove the bucket works, then work out a deal whereby he buys from you and resells, or he holds them in consignment and gives you the money after he sells them. You set the price, of course.
You could also do a "loan-to-buy" offer, where you let a customer use a demonstration bucket of yours for free for maybe 2 weeks, and when you go to pick it up (when their N and P are reduced), they'll want to buy a new one from you in order to keep their N and P from going back up.
---- might be an option later on, when people know what these things are. Also you could always do a litte site of your own. And don't forget Craigslist. But people have to be already looking for scrubbers for these online places to work, unless you advertise it as a "mega powerful algae remover" :) Then there are the traditional magazines that you could advertise in. They get expensive fast, but the reach a lot of people. You'll probably want to get some sales going with the above efforts first.
Basically, you are trying to reach beginners. The types with FO, FOWLR, or softie/LPS reefs, who are on their first or second tank, are your best customers. They spend money (sometimes lots of) on something if it makes their tank the way they want it, especially if it does so without them having to expend any effort. 9 out of 10 people who walk into a LFS are this type of person. So getting familiar with your LFS(s) will be very important.
Guarantees: Although most everyone on these forums that has set up a scrubber properly has seen great results (and possibly even eliminated all their nuisance algae) within 8 weeks, you can't make a guarantee of the same to a customer, because you have no control over how they will use it. So by saying something like the scrubber "usually" clears out algae within 8 weeks, you will be covered in case they mis-use it. Now, if you are hired to build and install it yourself, and maybe even to do weekly cleanings of it, you might be able to promise more.
Size: Most customers will be beginners, using FW or SW fish setups under 100 gallons. For these folks, a standard 5 gallon bucket with 144 square inches of screen should be fine. If you find that they have a very heavily stocked FO tank, or a tank of 150+ gallons, you may recommend to them that they get two buckets (hooked up in series or parallel). Or at least to start with one, and then add another later if they like the results. But building a "bigger" bucket is not a good idea for now. Keep everything to one size.
Support: Once a customer has purchased from you, you'll want to remain in contact with them afterwards in case they have questions. Most of them will have their questions immediately after purchasing, which is when they are trying to get it hooked up and working. After that, you probably will never hear from them again, except for a few that think that it's your fault that their tank is dying from some bad-husbandry issue of theirs. This is when you rely on your no-refunds policy.
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santamonica

Member
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Part 3 of 3
Call For Builders/Sellers
Installation: Many customers are only interested in the final look of their tank; they don't want anything to do with understanding how it works or how to install anything. For these folks, you offer (local) installation of the scrubber for an additional cost. If all you have to do is put the pump in their sump, set the bucket up, and run the drain line back to the sump, you might charge $150 service charge to go to their location and do it. That would include driving, setting up the bucket, taking N and P measurements, answering their questions, watching the setup for problems/leaks, showing them how to clean weekly and scrape perodically, etc. If you are installing a custom in-sump or above-sump design, maybe an extra $250 would cover the extra time.
Refunds: This will be the toughest area for you to deal with. Basically, you should guarantee that everything will ship to the customer without breaking (especially the lights) and that it will be in working condition. Other than that, once they start using it, there are no refunds. Let them know this upfront, in your invoice. And there are certainly no refunds if they are "not happy" with the nitrate, phosphate, or nuisance algae issues. Basically you just want to guarantee that the pump and lights work, since they are the only mechanical parts.
Tie-ins With Maintenance: Many guys, maybe you, are currently servicing tanks. So of course new accounts are always being sought to service. One thing you can do is to offer a free scrubber to a customer that purchases maintenance from you. So if you are a maintenance guy, you can use the scrubber to get new business. If you are not a maintenance guy, you can offer an actual maintenance guy a deal if he includes your scrubber in with his new clients.
Business cards: These are a must. Go online an set up an account with a printer who lets you design business cards from their site. BusinessCards.com is one (though I have not used them). You'll be making changes to your cards, so it good to have an account that you can go and make changes and make new prints. Here is an example of what your card could look like:

Name: Refer to a scrubber as an "algae filter", not a scrubber. To a beginner, a "scrubber" is a scrub pad they clean the glass with. By referring to scrubbers as "algae filters" you do two positive things. First, you make it very clear to the customer what it does: It filters algae, which is exactly why they are talking to you in the first place. Second, if they ever become more involved in reefs, then they will come to appreciate that "algae filter" really means that the algae on the screen is doing the filtering. So the name really has two meanings.
LFS Referrals: Maintenance guys do this all the time. First you convince the LFS that the scrubber works by loaning him a bucket for a problem tank of appropriate size. After he's conviced, give him your business card so he can refer you customers. Hey may ask you for a referral fee, so you'll have to negotiate with him how much. I'd say $10 per person that calls you is fair, whether or not they buy.
Details: When explaing a bucket to a potential customer, you have to keep it simple. All they care about is removing the ugly green stuff from their rocks and glass. Some of these folks don't even know which fish are SW and which are FW. So talk about the bucket in terms of doing what they want: Removing the algae from their tanks. Don't even mention nitrate or phosphate unless they ask. Make it easy to understand, i.e., "All the algae filter does is make the algae grow on the screen instead of in your tank; then you just clean it away!" That's all they really need or want to know. If they get into wanting detailed explanations and case histories, they they are not going to be buying your scrubber. But they will talk forever. In sales, these people are called "talkers", and will waste most of your time, and buy the least amounts of your product. The people who do buy most of your product will be the ones who ask the least questions and then buy the quickest. Again, all they care about is: Will it get the green off the rocks and glass? How often does it need to be cleaned?, What is the cost?, and Is there an algae guarantee?. All are easy answers (the last one being "no").
Anyways, hope to see some of you becoming mini scrubber manufacturers!
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santamonica

Member
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Today's build of the day is from "Bob the (reef)builder" on the MASA site, the same fellow who made the outdoor scrubber. He now is the first one to build the acrylic Santa Monica version for his own tank. Here is the original layout I posted a while back:

(It's currently the only filter of any kind on my tank.)
Here is Bob's version of the same thing; It's 4 feet long, using 2 T5's on each side:



 

santamonica

Member
Another reefer with a good camera offered to take pics and vids of my display, but until we can arrange for that, here are some sump shots with my old 2meg camera:


 

santamonica

Member
Result Of The Day:
"garypower" on the UR site: "i was on one of the first couple of pages on this thread and decided like others to give it a go! my screen is now 2 months on, and its there as predicted, full of algea turf deep red brown colour and having to start using a blade to make space! my tank parems have gone to non-detectable po4 and zero nitrates! the tank in appearance looks like polished water yet i dont run carbon! my skimmer is now only running one hour every four hours with my ozone unit on a timer, i have a much better growth rate with my corals, there is less build up of algea on the glass i only use a magfloat once a week to clear very faint dusting of algea."
 

santamonica

Member
Here's an idea: How about a directory of scrubber builders, with the following info on each builder:
Location:
City
State
Country
Material that the builder knows how to use:
PVC
Plastic
Acrylic
Glass
Components that the builder knows how to build:
Pipe
Screen
Frame for floppy screens
Bucket for screen
Box for screen
Sumps/Fuges with Scrubbers
HOB Scrubbers
HOT Scrubbers
LED Scrubbers
Misc:
Turn-around-time
Price range
Experience (number of scrubbers built)
Guarantees (if any)
Customer help after the sale
References
Misc items available (pump, timer, fan, unions, clips, etc)
Example drawings available?
How large/small can builder handle?
One problem with posting a directory is that it will need constant updating and re-posting. Would there be a better way to do it than posting in a thread? I could host it on my site where I put all the pics, or I could put it on the algae scrubber site. But ideal would be being able to post it here, and be able to edit it here.
 

bmkj02

Member
Hey Santamonica, Thanks for starting this thread. Very informative. I have a 24g Aquapod that I usually have problems and I think this might be a fix. I will try it this weekend. I am setting a 125g as we speak and will make one for that but I dont thnk anything will grow for a while as it has been cycling for over a week now but I will get it ready for it.
 

santamonica

Member
Those darn aquapods are the hardest to get a screen into. One guy did it but has not posted pics yet. Got to get it into the back compartment where the water falls down. Of course you could always do an external one.
Your cycling 125 is ready for a screen anytime. You'll have more nutrients for the screen during cycling than any other time.
 

todj2002

Member
I Have Only Been At This For About A Year And A Half Approx. And I Am The Kind Of Guy That Always Has More Going On Than I Have Time To Do. (seems Like Lol) Anyway I Always Have Nitrate Problems, Due To Lack Of Whater Changes. Well Sunday Afternoon I Tossed Together A Scrubber And I Will Keep Track Of The Results. I Am Excited To See The Results. Hope It Works. Going Tomorrow To Get A Tank Divider To Use As Screen, Unimpressed With The Screen I Am Presently Using. To Flimsy. Also Need To Pick Up A Check Valve And A More Powerfull Pump With Adjustable Flow. I Did Not Have A Sump Previously But I Think I May Pick Up A Ten Gallon Also To Have More Room For Scrubber And Then I Can Put My Skimmer Down There Too. Here Is A Couple Pics. I Suck At Taking Pics. Ha Ha




 

bmkj02

Member
Actually I have a 20g sump underneath my custom stand for my aquapod so I dont really have to bother with the back compartment. I still regret getting it though but my girlfriend wanted it.
 

santamonica

Member
Todj that screen might be fine. Make sure the lights are pointed down to the middle of the screen.
Bmk, good you can have a sump version. Much easier.
 

santamonica

Member
Ok here is a directory template; If you would like to be listed as a scrubber builder, copy and paste the below info into a PM to me (do not post it here on the thread). I'll compile it from there...
Location (fill in)
Country:
State:
City:
Material that the builder has worked with (delete the rest)
PVC
Plastic
Acrylic
Glass
Components that the builder has built (delete the rest)
Pipe
Screen
Frame for floppy screens
Bucket for screen
Box for screen
Sumps/Fuges with Scrubbers
HOB Scrubbers
HOT Scrubbers
LED Scrubbers
Misc (fill in)
Turn-around-time:
Price range:
Experience (number of scrubbers built):
Guarantees (if any):
Customer help after the sale:
References:
Misc items available (pump, timer, fan, unions, clips, etc):
Example drawings available:
How large/small can builder handle:
Contact (fill in)
Phone:
Email:
Personal or Business Website:
Forum Username:
Forum Website:
 
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