Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

king_neptune

Active Member
Originally Posted by Kraylen
http:///forum/post/3187428
Wow you people are actually doing this crap? This had to have been the most laughed at thread on every forum I've seen it on. It's a waste of time I'm telling you.
Well I have never had anything above a .1 on my readings. pretty much everything stays flat line and in the green. So I cant complain about my setup. It works as advertised. I still got a skimmer on standby ready to go. But as of yet, my system still runs stable.
 

kraylen

Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/3202999
Well I have never had anything above a .1 on my readings. pretty much everything stays flat line and in the green. So I cant complain about my setup. It works as advertised. I still got a skimmer on standby ready to go. But as of yet, my system still runs stable.
System specs? Live stock?
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Glad you took interest.

I think you are the perfect candidate. You apparently despise scrubbers. San is obsessed. I'm in the middle and am giving them a shot. I want to do this as objectively as I can. This is a unique build, and a great test model to look at when considering a natural eco system. This is a system that I keep running on a low budget, and I'm thrilled at its performance so far. And its budget is growing a little each month, so by no means is this tank anywhere near to finished.
Its constantly evolving. I try something and if it doesnt work, I improve. The main point of this system is it is as close to natural as I can get. Skimmers are not natural, yes they foam...but the method is not best way.
There is a flip side to that coin, and its in the biodiversity, and maturity of this tank compared to tanks much older.
I got a skimmer on standby ready to go, so I see total merit in both systems. I firmly believe a skimmer and scrubber can each compete head on.
I am in the process of trying out skimming to prove a point, then switching back to scrubbing. And if the point is proven wrong, your gonna see a skimmer run system.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/349033/neptunes-125-reef-diary
Anyways, I really hope you enjoy the build. I know you will speak passionately. Its a little outdated, but no worries: I'm in the midst of updating it since I had gotten bored with updates, and school took priority. There is going to be lots of questions answers and posed.
 

santamonica

Member
Several updates:
1. The algae that does the filtering in the oceans (algae is 90 percent of all life, except for bacteria) is planktonic, meaning they are small particles floating in the water. This is why the ocean is greenish in color. The tiny bit of algae on the beaches is not enough to do any filtering for an entire ocean.
2. Brown-to-Green. Algae on your screen will start off brown, then go to green, after several cleanings. But brown aglae STILL filters; it's just that it's the type of algae that grows when nutrients are high. If your screen never turns green, you are still getting filtering from the brown; it's just that your scrubber is not strong enough to get nutrients low enough to grow green (based on how much you are currently feeding).
3. Real turf algae (the kinds that is tough like carpet) is not needed. Last year I posted that real turf was best, but now it's been shown that in DIY aquarium scrubbers, green hair and even brown slime filters just as well. And that's a good thing because real turf almost never grows because it gets covered up by green and brown (unless you use a surge, which kills the green and brown with lack of flow.)
4. Fish-only tanks don't need tiny particles of food in the water, and thus don't benefit as much from scrubbers. However if you are going to run a skimmerless fish-only tank, and if you are not going to have any mechanical filter at all (like a filter sock), one thing you can do is use very little flow in the display, so that all fish waste will fall to the bottom. Then, make sure you have enough cleanup's on the bottom to break the waste up into tiny particles. The quicker the particles are broken up, the quicker bacteria can convert them into ammonia, nitrate and phosphate, and the quicker the scrubber can absorb these things. However if you are going to have any mechanical filters at all (including a skimmer), then you want high flow along the bottom of the tank so that the particles will get taken away to the filters for removal.
5. T5 bulbs are better, for the same wattage, because all the power is distributed evenly across the screen. CFL bulbs have to be moved further away, because the center spot gets too much power, but the farther spots don't get enough. T5 scrubbers are MUCH harder to build, however.
6. I keep hearing "Yes, skimmers DO remove nitrate and phosphate! They just do it by removing organics BEFORE they break down into nitrates and phosphates". That's just great. Organics, before they "break down", are called FOOD. Yes, FOOD. So yes, skimmers DO remove FOOD (i.e, "protein"). But saying that removing FOOD is the same as removing nitrates and phosphates is like saying removing BEER, before you drink it, is the same as removing the pee after you drink it. Wouldn't you rather have the beer, and then remove the pee? Skimmers remove the food that you put in the tank. Scrubbers remove the "pee" after the tank eats the food.
7. Horizontal (one-sided) screens are only recommended for nano tanks, and only if the screen is narrow (no more than 4 inches wide) so that the water flows like a river. If you try to do horizontal screens on bigger tanks, the screen will have to be wider, and what will happen is that when algae tries to grow thick, it will block the flow from getting past it (it will even block flow to itself). If the screen is 4 inches wide or less, and if the flow is very high, the water will pile up and get over the algae. But on wider screens it won't, and any algae downstream of the thick algae will have it's flow cut off. And for any horizontal screen, make sure you put a solid sheet under it, to keep the water from falling through.
8. Cloudiness is caused by underlying algae layers dying (from not cleaning); if you look at these layers, they look like wheat, and they fall right off of the screen. Green or yellow water, however, is caused by cleaning the screen in the water, without removing it first and taking it to the sink; the strands of algae break and put colored stuff into the water.
9. Algae video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB2XlpD-Ld4
 

santamonica

Member
Finally here is a presentable acrylic scrubber box:









Video of box:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G_FEncUGDY
Here is the diagram if you want to build it:

Specs:
o 25 inches long (63.5 cm)
o 7.25 inches wide (18.4 cm)
o 6.5 inches tall (16.5 cm) with cover, or 6.25 inches tall (15.9 cm) without cover.
o Much stronger filtering compared to CFL-powered screens of same area and wattage.
o Very strong stand-alone filtering for a 50 gallon high-load reef tank.
o Good stand-alone filtering for a 100 gallon medium-load reef tank.
o Supplementary filtering for a 180 gallon medium-load reef tank.
o 100 square inches (645 square cm) of growable two-sided screen area, not counting the part that goes into the pipe.
o This is a high-performance scrubber, packed into a small space (which is what I wanted for the limited space under my tank). There is no wasted light; 100 percent of the light hits the screen, and is only 1.5 inches from the screen.
o The light is the same distance from the screen, from one end of the screen to the other.
o It works equally well in Fresh or Salt (but not for planted-only tanks).
o The all-black acrylic blocks out almost all light from escaping.
o The lid stops any evaporation or cooling. If you do want evaporation and cooling, just leave the lid off. If you wants LOTS of evaporation and cooling, put a fan on it. It will light up the whole room, however.
o The recommended four bulbs (Current Nova Extreme model 1127) deliver about 100 watts (8000 lumens) of flourescent light. If less filtering (and less power consumption) is needed, bulbs can be removed to give you about 75, 50 or 25 watts of lighting. (You cannot reduce the flow, however)
o The unit is only 6.5 inches (16.5 cm) tall. Only a few more inches are needed above this to be able to lift out the pipe/screen.
o Has a water-tight drain which allows the unit to be placed on top of the tank, or even on a shelf, where it can drain back to the display.
o Requires 800 GPH (after head loss). Do not skimp on GPH, because the long pipe will not fill with enough water if you do. An Eheim 1260 pump works good if the scrubber is down in the sump area, but if you put the scrubber up high on a shelf above the tank, something bigger like an Eheim 1262 would be needed. I have and use both of these pumps. At the sump level, there is not much difference in flow between these two pumps, but when you have to pump up to a shelf above the display, the extra power of the 1262 (or similar) would be needed.
o The 22 inch (55.9 cm) wide screen allows much more water flow to be filtered for the same screen area; this gives more filtering per hour than a narrow screen of the same area.
o The long T5HO bulbs distribute the light evenly from one side of the screen to the other, and are only 1.5 inches (3.8 cm) from the screen. So there are no "burned" spots in the middle of the screen as there can be with CFL bulbs (because they put all the light into one spot).
o The box allows water to "pool" at the bottom when the algae gets thick. This creates algae that is floating in this turbulent pool, and lets the algae get more three dimensional, which lets water flow throughout the algae strands. This creates more filtering than just a flat sheet of algae.
o The top shelf keeps water from dripping on the lights when you take the screen out, and it also holds the lights in place.
o The bottom shelf keeps water from splashing up from the sump onto the lights, and also makes a wide base to keep the scrubber stable. The lights sit on this shelf.
o Replace the bulbs every 3 months. Most any K bulb below 6500 should work (including plant-grow bulbs), but F24T5HO/830 are suggested and are low cost.
o Clean your pump (run in pure vinager for a hour) every 3 months to make sure the flow stays high. If there is no longer a swirling "pool" on the bottom of the scrubber, then your pump needs cleaning.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
I just ordered a 12"x12" LED array that contains 225 tiny LED's

Specifications:
Body material: Thermoplastic
Circuitry board material: Diecast Chrome
225 Super Bright LEDs
Color: WHITE 6000-7000K
Working Voltage: 110V (Plug in To North America Standard Outlet)
Power: 13.8 Watts
Dimensions: 12 â¼ inches (30.5cm) square
Thickness: Low profile 1.25"
Power cord length: 48 inches
Recommended coverage: One panel per 2 square feet for full illumination.
Ill keep you all posted on how well it works. Im gonna do a direct comparison to my PC florescent that I currently use. $35 with shipping.
 

wangotango

Active Member
While yes there are algaes that will consumer excess nutrients that may cause high nitrates, etc (like chaetomorphia), I don't think an ATS is God's gift to the reef aquarium. You mentioned earlier about it creating more free-floating food for corals to eat, but do you have any tests to confirm this?
Not saying they're a waste of time, but don't overexaggerate what it can do.
 

santamonica

Member
Neptune: If you get the 45 watt version of that LED, and put one on both sides, it might work.
Tango: It's elementary knowledge that pods grow in algae.
IBEW: I just got a new camera for the scrubber. After I get some new corals for the tank, I'll do more pics. My focus for the last year has been feeding, not scrubbing (i.e., I don't care whay my tank looks like).
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/3221003
Neptune: If you get the 45 watt version of that LED, and put one on both sides, it might work.
A 45w LED system would handle corals. I need something significantly smaller. I'm fairly sure these lights will do, but just the same Ill keep you all posted on how well they worked...if they worked at all.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Interesting. Price estimate for the whole unit?
Lights, screen everything.
And how soon before you can start shipping them?
Have you tested out the growth?
The screen looks pretty shallow.
But I think I wouldn't mind one as a supplementary scrubber for my 125.
I would of course remove my existing scrubber and hang this in its place.
Or possibly even run them simultaneous to see which is better.
 

ibew41

Active Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/3224318
Interesting. Price estimate for the whole unit?
Lights, screen everything.
And how soon before you can start shipping them?
Have you tested out the growth?
The screen looks pretty shallow.
But I think I wouldn't mind one as a supplementary scrubber for my 125.
I would of course remove my existing scrubber and hang this in its place.
Or possibly even run them simultaneous to see which is better.
who didn't see this coming that he would start selling some style of this. I was hoping that it would stay a dyi but knew when I saw the black acrylic come out
 

reefkprz

Active Member
JMO here, salt spray creep and algae is going to cover the acrylic sides so much you probably wont need the center screening. either that or you'll have to clean the box every day or three to keep light penetration high enough.
great workmanship nice clean looking box. not sure how well the clear sides will stay clear though.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Originally Posted by IBEW41
http:///forum/post/3224389
who didn't see this coming that he would start selling some style of this. I was hoping that it would stay a dyi but knew when I saw the black acrylic come out
^_^
Its no surprise to me. I saw the hints of this coming when those screens were introduced a few months back.
Originally Posted by reefkprZ

http:///forum/post/3224650
JMO here, salt spray creep and algae is going to cover the acrylic sides so much you probably wont need the center screening. either that or you'll have to clean the box every day or three to keep light penetration high enough.
great workmanship nice clean looking box. not sure how well the clear sides will stay clear though.
I think they will do ok, until the algae starts growing, the ugly truth is once that happens the water flow alters and you end up with little jets and streams spitting out in odd places. It drove me mad when I had my screen covered by acrylic to prevent splashing on the light fixture.
But cleaning it daily, that might be a little harsh. I could see a 5 min session weekly. Hopefully the unit is workable around this, and it isa light chore to pull it all down and wipe.
I can see myself interested in this system, if it was reasonably priced, and I could see some tests.
My only real skeptisism stems from the over all shallow depth of the screen, yet the descriptive claims it will handle a 100g system.Keep us posted San, I wanna see where you are taking this.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
But cleaning it daily, that might be a little harsh. I could see a 5 min session weekly. Hopefully the unit is workable around this, and it isa light chore to pull it all down and wipe.

I did say or three. no telling without running it. like I said it was just an observation, of a potential problem. every new design needs trouble shooting. and beta testing.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
ah ha ha....
Ok i re-read it, sneaky...that "or three" went past my eyes.
Ok I yield to you sir.
I kinda like the design. I do feel a little skeptical on how shallow it is. Even an extra 2" above and below the lights would make worlds of difference, especially when considering how small the inner window is.
Kudos San. Keep spreading the ATS love.
 

santamonica

Member
Price estimate for the whole unit? Lights, screen everything. And how soon before you can start shipping them?
Well, I'm making them now, per order. I probably should not post prices here, until I am a vendor. Trying to figure out if there are vendors here.
Have you tested out the growth?
Several people have built similar models, and mine has been growing for 1.5 years.
The screen looks pretty shallow.
The more "shallow", and more wide it is, the higher performance it is. It also makes it easier to fit on a sump, display, or shelf.
But I think I wouldn't mind one as a supplementary scrubber for my 125.
Could probably be stand-alone on a 125, unless you feed 4 or more cubes a day.
I would of course remove my existing scrubber and hang this in its place.
Or possibly even run them simultaneous to see which is better.
Yes running both would be a great test.
JMO here, salt spray creep and algae is going to cover the acrylic sides so much you probably wont need the center screening.
Mine hardly get wet at all, much less growth. A wipe with a wet towell (maybe) twice a week. But I've let it go on purpose for several week, and saw no difference.
you end up with little jets and streams spitting out in odd places.
I rarely get this, but the higher walls of the black version will catch them if they occur (and the lid too, of course). A simple shield laid around the pipe would stop all growth in the slot...

My only real skeptisism stems from the over all shallow depth of the screen, yet the descriptive claims it will handle a 100g
It's 100 square inches, same as a 10 X 10, but much stronger because of 2X the flow, and because the bulbs are 1.5" from the screen all the way across. If growing well, you should be able to top out at 1 pound of wet algae per week. 1/2 pound per week is even enough to filter a 100g.
Even an extra 2" above and below the lights would make worlds of difference, especially when considering how small the inner window is.
Actually as you even move to the ends of the T5's, the growth starts slowing down. Forget going beyond them.
 

ibew41

Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/3221003
Neptune: If you get the 45 watt version of that LED, and put one on both sides, it might work.
Tango: It's elementary knowledge that pods grow in algae.
IBEW: I just got a new camera for the scrubber. After I get some new corals for the tank, I'll do more pics. My focus for the last year has been feeding, not scrubbing (i.e., I don't care whay my tank looks like).
you don't care what your tank looks like and getting new corals so you cant show a week to week time line how well this product you are trying to sell does or does not work.Do you have water test results that you can post(dont bother now NO ONE will believe them now).Now be honest if you where trying to help other people in this hobby would you not have posted on other subjects not only this board but many others that you have been posting on?
 
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