Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything
- Thread starter santamonica
- Start date
santamonica
Member
I'll help with the new page too. And answer Heirfaus 
Nice first build. That a large screen. Put a mirror, or mylar or foil on the inside of the box, to help light the back of the screen. Better: Put T5HO Gro-Lux bulbs on the back side.
Also remove your filter sock. It only traps food and causes it to rot (adding to your phosphate). Any other foam/floss should go also. And if the purpose of the macro in your fuge is only to reduce nitrate and phosphate, you can remove it too. It will not compete well with the scrubber, and it's only trapping food/waste too. Leave it, however, if you are using it to grow pods, etc. Lastly, the sand in the fuge is too shallow; if you are going to keep the macro and sand, you need 4" of sugar-sized "oolitic aragonite", other wise it too will just trap stuff and add phosphate. Removing the sand along with the macro would solve this, however.
The scrubber, once running, will produce microscopic baby pods by the millions, but it won't produce larger pods because of the weekly cleaning in FW. So if you are wanting amphipods, etc, you'll need to keep your macro/sand. Although, yet another option would be to use rock rubble instead.
Nice first build. That a large screen. Put a mirror, or mylar or foil on the inside of the box, to help light the back of the screen. Better: Put T5HO Gro-Lux bulbs on the back side.
Also remove your filter sock. It only traps food and causes it to rot (adding to your phosphate). Any other foam/floss should go also. And if the purpose of the macro in your fuge is only to reduce nitrate and phosphate, you can remove it too. It will not compete well with the scrubber, and it's only trapping food/waste too. Leave it, however, if you are using it to grow pods, etc. Lastly, the sand in the fuge is too shallow; if you are going to keep the macro and sand, you need 4" of sugar-sized "oolitic aragonite", other wise it too will just trap stuff and add phosphate. Removing the sand along with the macro would solve this, however.
The scrubber, once running, will produce microscopic baby pods by the millions, but it won't produce larger pods because of the weekly cleaning in FW. So if you are wanting amphipods, etc, you'll need to keep your macro/sand. Although, yet another option would be to use rock rubble instead.
santamonica
Member
Update: CFL Reflectors
When I see a regular CFL bulb (not a floodlight) being used, I always say that it needs a reflector. Although it would just be easier to use CFL floodlight (which does not need a reflector), below are some reflectors you can use with regular CFL bulbs. You can find many others by searching for "CFL reflector", or by going to any hydroponics or gardening store:
When I see a regular CFL bulb (not a floodlight) being used, I always say that it needs a reflector. Although it would just be easier to use CFL floodlight (which does not need a reflector), below are some reflectors you can use with regular CFL bulbs. You can find many others by searching for "CFL reflector", or by going to any hydroponics or gardening store:
heirfaus
New Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica http:///forum/post/2978388
Update: CFL Reflectors
When I see a regular CFL bulb (not a floodlight) being used, I always say that it needs a reflector. Although it would just be easier to use CFL floodlight (which does not need a reflector), below are some reflectors you can use with regular CFL bulbs. You can find many others by searching for "CFL reflector", or by going to any hydroponics or gardening store:
http://www.hydroleaf.com/categoryview.do?cat_id=107
What if I use a light like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...3+530235+90401
Update: CFL Reflectors
When I see a regular CFL bulb (not a floodlight) being used, I always say that it needs a reflector. Although it would just be easier to use CFL floodlight (which does not need a reflector), below are some reflectors you can use with regular CFL bulbs. You can find many others by searching for "CFL reflector", or by going to any hydroponics or gardening store:
http://www.hydroleaf.com/categoryview.do?cat_id=107
What if I use a light like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...3+530235+90401
heirfaus
New Member
Well I got impatient and did some upgrades.
First problem was spitting out of the sides and splashing at the bottom....it was out of control. My fix was to cut 3 slots in the pipe and hang screen in the outer two slots (which are very thin, just enough room for the screen). The middle slot is significantly wider and the water flows down the middle. PROBLEM ONE SOLVED!! No more splashing
The other fix was to make the pieces wider than the holes and then cutting slits so the screen sits in the slots with the excess up against the pipe. PROBLEM TWO SOLVED no more spitting out the sides
I also bought an 100w equivalent CFL. They offered 3 color tones. I chose daylight.
Next upgrade is to ad foil to the inside of the box. Going to try and get that done tomorrow.
This next one shows the flaps on the side
I used the algae on the side to seed the screen
Some algae seeded and ready to grow
READY TO ROCK!! Also removed ALOT of the macro algae in the bottom.
First problem was spitting out of the sides and splashing at the bottom....it was out of control. My fix was to cut 3 slots in the pipe and hang screen in the outer two slots (which are very thin, just enough room for the screen). The middle slot is significantly wider and the water flows down the middle. PROBLEM ONE SOLVED!! No more splashing
I also bought an 100w equivalent CFL. They offered 3 color tones. I chose daylight.
Next upgrade is to ad foil to the inside of the box. Going to try and get that done tomorrow.
This next one shows the flaps on the side
I used the algae on the side to seed the screen
Some algae seeded and ready to grow
READY TO ROCK!! Also removed ALOT of the macro algae in the bottom.
santamonica
Member
spkdtch the three basic ways of pluming a scrubber are here:
heirfaus those bulbs would work fine; I'd get the 2700K. That is an excellent reflector you have... all the light goes to the screen.
About your screen... the problem of water spraying sideways is usually caused by algae growing up into the slot. It's great that you stopped spraying for now, but keep an eye out for when growth gets thick. You might need a spray/light shield.
heirfaus those bulbs would work fine; I'd get the 2700K. That is an excellent reflector you have... all the light goes to the screen.
About your screen... the problem of water spraying sideways is usually caused by algae growing up into the slot. It's great that you stopped spraying for now, but keep an eye out for when growth gets thick. You might need a spray/light shield.
aquaknight
Active Member
santamonica
Member
Aqua maybe you can put your pics here too
santamonica
Member
Part 6 of 7:
"The Food of Reefs, Part 6: Particulate Organic Matter" by Eric Borneman
"This article will address a very important food to corals and many other animals, particulate organic material (POM). This food source has many names, including detritus [waste], floculant organic matter, reef snow, marine snow, and suspended organic material.
"Not so long ago, marine aquarists made every attempt to be assured that their water column was "polished." I never fully understood the term, but the premise was that a clean water column was a good water column. Various means were employed to accomplish this, including the use of various power filters, mechanical flosses and screens, sterilizers, ozonizers, canister filters, diatom filters, foam fractionators [skimmers] and many other devices. [However] "polished" water might not be in the best interest of reef tanks or corals.
"Particulate organic material has its origins in life, being composed by and large of the remains, secretions and excretions of living organisms. On coral reefs, it is composed mostly of dead algae, bacteria, mucus, and feces.
"When food, waste, or other particulate organic matter (POM) is trapped, especially in an aerobic environment, it is acted upon by several types of bacteria that break down the substances into more basic dissolved organic and inorganic components. Some of these breakdown components are organic acids and refractory compounds that can impart a yellow tint to the water column. This yellowing has been called "gelbstoff." However, both the substances remaining after [various types of] filtration, as well as the substances removed by the filtration, can be utilized by the life in the aquaria, and are taken up by corals, sponges, some other invertebrates, phytoplankton, bacteria, and algae.
"On reef slopes and crests, the [waste] material is mostly coral mucus, while over the reef flats and lagoons, the material is mostly algae and fecal matter. This material, by itself, has a high carbon content. However, it acts as a substrate for bacteria, ciliates, cyanobacteria, and other microorganisms that coat the particles. Bacteria can even convert dissolved organic material (DOM) into particulate organic material (POM) by aggregating it in the presence of carbon. This provides a substantially enriched particle replete with amino acids and valuably higher nitrogen content. As such, detritus [waste] becomes a very nutritious food source for many organisms. It is such a complex "dirt", that detritus has been described as a completely self-contained microhabitat of its own, with plant, animal and microbial components, and its own "built-in" nutrient source.
"Another major consumer group of detritus is the zooplankton. These small animals, themselves a very important food sources to reef consumers, have been found to have 90% of their gut contents composed of detritus. Mucus-producing animals, like corals, tend to trap detritus, and the material is either removed or consumed by ciliary action across the tissue surface. Many fish also consume coral mucus, and any attached particulate organic material"
"Detritus [waste] forms the basis of several food webs that are part of a balanced autotrophic/heterotrophic community. It also plays a role in establishing various levels of nutrient production and decomposition. It is this material that is the principal food source for the many bacterial species that work in various nitrification and denitrification activities. Before reaching the microbial community, however, it acts as a food source for the smaller consumers such as amphipods, copepods, errant polychaetes, protozoans, flagellates, ciliates and other animals whose activities contribute to the stability and productivity of a coral reef and a coral reef aquarium.
"It is the microbial community, though, that is most important in the detrital processes. On the reef, the productivity of bacteria (both aerobic and anaerobic oxidation and reduction, including important sulfate reduction) depends heavily on detritus. Without this microbial community, coral reefs would cease to exist.
"Corals, in particular, are notable for their consumption of detritus. All corals studied feed to some degree on POM, and coral communities have been found to remove half of the POM present on some reefs. So prevalent is this material, that it is termed "reef snow" in the wild. [...] Given the ability of so many corals to consume and utilize this material, along with its relatively high abundance and ability to provide up to 100% of corals' carbon and nitrogen requirements, it may now (hopefully) seem rather foolish to attempt to remove this material from aquaria.
"The Food of Reefs, Part 6: Particulate Organic Matter" by Eric Borneman
"This article will address a very important food to corals and many other animals, particulate organic material (POM). This food source has many names, including detritus [waste], floculant organic matter, reef snow, marine snow, and suspended organic material.
"Not so long ago, marine aquarists made every attempt to be assured that their water column was "polished." I never fully understood the term, but the premise was that a clean water column was a good water column. Various means were employed to accomplish this, including the use of various power filters, mechanical flosses and screens, sterilizers, ozonizers, canister filters, diatom filters, foam fractionators [skimmers] and many other devices. [However] "polished" water might not be in the best interest of reef tanks or corals.
"Particulate organic material has its origins in life, being composed by and large of the remains, secretions and excretions of living organisms. On coral reefs, it is composed mostly of dead algae, bacteria, mucus, and feces.
"When food, waste, or other particulate organic matter (POM) is trapped, especially in an aerobic environment, it is acted upon by several types of bacteria that break down the substances into more basic dissolved organic and inorganic components. Some of these breakdown components are organic acids and refractory compounds that can impart a yellow tint to the water column. This yellowing has been called "gelbstoff." However, both the substances remaining after [various types of] filtration, as well as the substances removed by the filtration, can be utilized by the life in the aquaria, and are taken up by corals, sponges, some other invertebrates, phytoplankton, bacteria, and algae.
"On reef slopes and crests, the [waste] material is mostly coral mucus, while over the reef flats and lagoons, the material is mostly algae and fecal matter. This material, by itself, has a high carbon content. However, it acts as a substrate for bacteria, ciliates, cyanobacteria, and other microorganisms that coat the particles. Bacteria can even convert dissolved organic material (DOM) into particulate organic material (POM) by aggregating it in the presence of carbon. This provides a substantially enriched particle replete with amino acids and valuably higher nitrogen content. As such, detritus [waste] becomes a very nutritious food source for many organisms. It is such a complex "dirt", that detritus has been described as a completely self-contained microhabitat of its own, with plant, animal and microbial components, and its own "built-in" nutrient source.
"Another major consumer group of detritus is the zooplankton. These small animals, themselves a very important food sources to reef consumers, have been found to have 90% of their gut contents composed of detritus. Mucus-producing animals, like corals, tend to trap detritus, and the material is either removed or consumed by ciliary action across the tissue surface. Many fish also consume coral mucus, and any attached particulate organic material"
"Detritus [waste] forms the basis of several food webs that are part of a balanced autotrophic/heterotrophic community. It also plays a role in establishing various levels of nutrient production and decomposition. It is this material that is the principal food source for the many bacterial species that work in various nitrification and denitrification activities. Before reaching the microbial community, however, it acts as a food source for the smaller consumers such as amphipods, copepods, errant polychaetes, protozoans, flagellates, ciliates and other animals whose activities contribute to the stability and productivity of a coral reef and a coral reef aquarium.
"It is the microbial community, though, that is most important in the detrital processes. On the reef, the productivity of bacteria (both aerobic and anaerobic oxidation and reduction, including important sulfate reduction) depends heavily on detritus. Without this microbial community, coral reefs would cease to exist.
"Corals, in particular, are notable for their consumption of detritus. All corals studied feed to some degree on POM, and coral communities have been found to remove half of the POM present on some reefs. So prevalent is this material, that it is termed "reef snow" in the wild. [...] Given the ability of so many corals to consume and utilize this material, along with its relatively high abundance and ability to provide up to 100% of corals' carbon and nitrogen requirements, it may now (hopefully) seem rather foolish to attempt to remove this material from aquaria.
santamonica
Member
Here is a Nano hang-on-back or hang-on-top box scrubber that somebody could build to sell. That is the reason for the tighly fitting lid, and the built-in pump; no decisions or adjustments are needed by the customer. After building it, you could buy a banner ad on this site to sell them. Or maybe SWF could carry it.
However if you were just building it for yourself, you can make the lighting simpler by just setting a T5HO light fixture on top of the box (although you would not get the benefit of the noise and light being sealed off by the lid), and you could make the pump simpler by just putting the pump in the tank (up near the waterline):
I'm not providing any links or part numbers, because it's up to the person building it to make sure that everything works together properly (it's not a beginner's project). Here are a few notes:
This scrubber MUST be placed above the tank, so it drains down into the tank.
The overflow drain must be lower than the bulbs.
The pump must be self-priming, capable of pulling water up 12" or so from the tank.
There should be no holes in the sides or bottom of the box, except for the drains; all other tubing and wires should come out of the top of the box. This will eliminate any possibility of leaky connections.
Two bulbs will provide more filtering than one will. And if you can fit three, all the better. 12" T5 bulbs are only 8 watts each.
The screen needs a solid backing, with some plastic canvas laid on over it.
The mounting brackets could hook onto the top of the nano, or they could be made into extended legs that go all the way down to the cabinet. Or, the whole box scrubber could be set on top of the nano, and be moved as needed.
The pump should be able to run "dry" without burning up.
The upflow-tubing should not go very far into the display; maybe a half inch or so. This limits how much water can be pulled out of the tank if there is a problem.
The size shown, 13.5" X 3" X 3", gives a one-sided screen of about 40 square inches. This will fit neatly behind (and on top of) a typical 6 or 8 gal nano without sticking out, but will also provide enough filtering for an 18 gal nano that gets weekly cleanings. For 24 gal and larger, use two separate scrubbers. This has the added benefit of redundancy, and, allows you to keep one running while the other one grows back after cleaning.
Overflow protection test: (1) plug up the drain at the bottom of the screen; the water should rise and start going out the overflow drain without spilling out of the lid, and it should not get high enough to touch the bulbs. (2) Now, also plug up the overflow tube. The pump should start running dry before the box spills, if you placed the upflow tubing high enough in the tank.
The T5 sockets should be the "waterproof" type, they keeps spray and salt out. They are not really "waterproof", but they are made for aquarium use.
Basic costs of building one (multiples would be cheaper)...
Box w/lid: $40
Pump: $35
2 Bulbs: $15
Sockets: $20
Ballast: $35
Misc: $40
[hr]
Total: $185 USD
However if you were just building it for yourself, you can make the lighting simpler by just setting a T5HO light fixture on top of the box (although you would not get the benefit of the noise and light being sealed off by the lid), and you could make the pump simpler by just putting the pump in the tank (up near the waterline):
I'm not providing any links or part numbers, because it's up to the person building it to make sure that everything works together properly (it's not a beginner's project). Here are a few notes:
This scrubber MUST be placed above the tank, so it drains down into the tank.
The overflow drain must be lower than the bulbs.
The pump must be self-priming, capable of pulling water up 12" or so from the tank.
There should be no holes in the sides or bottom of the box, except for the drains; all other tubing and wires should come out of the top of the box. This will eliminate any possibility of leaky connections.
Two bulbs will provide more filtering than one will. And if you can fit three, all the better. 12" T5 bulbs are only 8 watts each.
The screen needs a solid backing, with some plastic canvas laid on over it.
The mounting brackets could hook onto the top of the nano, or they could be made into extended legs that go all the way down to the cabinet. Or, the whole box scrubber could be set on top of the nano, and be moved as needed.
The pump should be able to run "dry" without burning up.
The upflow-tubing should not go very far into the display; maybe a half inch or so. This limits how much water can be pulled out of the tank if there is a problem.
The size shown, 13.5" X 3" X 3", gives a one-sided screen of about 40 square inches. This will fit neatly behind (and on top of) a typical 6 or 8 gal nano without sticking out, but will also provide enough filtering for an 18 gal nano that gets weekly cleanings. For 24 gal and larger, use two separate scrubbers. This has the added benefit of redundancy, and, allows you to keep one running while the other one grows back after cleaning.
Overflow protection test: (1) plug up the drain at the bottom of the screen; the water should rise and start going out the overflow drain without spilling out of the lid, and it should not get high enough to touch the bulbs. (2) Now, also plug up the overflow tube. The pump should start running dry before the box spills, if you placed the upflow tubing high enough in the tank.
The T5 sockets should be the "waterproof" type, they keeps spray and salt out. They are not really "waterproof", but they are made for aquarium use.
Basic costs of building one (multiples would be cheaper)...
Box w/lid: $40
Pump: $35
2 Bulbs: $15
Sockets: $20
Ballast: $35
Misc: $40
[hr]
Total: $185 USD
coralreefer
Active Member
i just wanted to know, is this worth the extra work to do it? i am doing a 75 build with a sump and i was wondering
posiden
Active Member
I don't really think this is any more work then anything else one might set up. There are many different methods of filtration, it is just a matter of which way you want to go. Which is very largely dependent on your beliefs.
Me, so far I love my scrubber. I only spend about 20 min a week in maintenance. That includes feeding and dosing. All the other time is spent enjoying the tank.
I don't run anything but carbon and the scrubber on my tank. The next two tanks that I am building are both going to be scrubber tanks. I am even toying around with trying this on a fresh water planted tank, to see if I can get away with not using co2.
I really think in the end it is all a personal preference. Which filtration method you like best. But..........If you have never used one why not give it a try? If you don't like it you can always spend your money on the other stuff and remove the scrubber. These scrubbers average out at about 20 bucks total. Mine was a whopping 10 bucks.
Me, so far I love my scrubber. I only spend about 20 min a week in maintenance. That includes feeding and dosing. All the other time is spent enjoying the tank.
I don't run anything but carbon and the scrubber on my tank. The next two tanks that I am building are both going to be scrubber tanks. I am even toying around with trying this on a fresh water planted tank, to see if I can get away with not using co2.
I really think in the end it is all a personal preference. Which filtration method you like best. But..........If you have never used one why not give it a try? If you don't like it you can always spend your money on the other stuff and remove the scrubber. These scrubbers average out at about 20 bucks total. Mine was a whopping 10 bucks.
coralreefer
Active Member
ok ill try it and ill just divide the pvc pipe that is going into the sump and let one fall over the screen
santamonica
Member
Update: N and P are invisible:
It's important to know/remember that Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate, which is what your test kits read, and which are also what causes the nuisance algae to grow in your tank, are invisible. You can see the results of the nitrate and phosphate; it's the nuisance algae. But you cannot see the nitrate and phosphate itself. This fact causes the most problems when people see a lot of stuff (food) that their skimmers have removed, but wonder why their nuisance algae is not being removed (skimmers don't remove Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate), and also when their phosphate tests zero, but they still have algae on certain parts of the rocks (the invisible phosphate is coming out of the rocks.)
It's important to know/remember that Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate, which is what your test kits read, and which are also what causes the nuisance algae to grow in your tank, are invisible. You can see the results of the nitrate and phosphate; it's the nuisance algae. But you cannot see the nitrate and phosphate itself. This fact causes the most problems when people see a lot of stuff (food) that their skimmers have removed, but wonder why their nuisance algae is not being removed (skimmers don't remove Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate), and also when their phosphate tests zero, but they still have algae on certain parts of the rocks (the invisible phosphate is coming out of the rocks.)
getsinger2006
New Member
While at Wally World I noticed some 300 watt 6100 lumens bulbs. Wonder how well they would work for this app.