Michael Vick

crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
I think kicking him out of the nfl is a little harsh but he does deserve some punishment... now I think.
Why do we have to wait to see how the criminal charges come out? He may be innocent until proven guilty in a courtroom (the single largest fallacy in the legal system by the way) but the nfl is not a courtroom. There is no reason that an organization such as the nfl has to give anyone the legal and/or constitutional protection that they get in the courtroom. It doesn't really matter that much anyway because he will end up pleading to a lesser charge, probably a misdemeanor, and doing some community service and nonreporting probation. And that won't really tell us what his involvement actually was.
The new commissioner is making his approach very clear. Let the guy go commit crimes and work at McDonalds rather than for the Falcons.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pontius
there's an old saying in law enforcement......"possession is nine tenths of the law". it happened on property that he owned, that's not up for dispute. he owned 2 "dog breeding" businesses that happened to breed these same dogs (pit bulls) that were found on the property. so yeah, he's guilty. the trial is just a formality at this point.
.
If you're ever called for jury duty do society a favor and decline.
Until the facts are made public nobody knows what went on. If Vick did have a breeding business it is possible that the guy living there thought that would be a good cover for having a fighting operation going. I would be a little surprised if someone smart enough (despite some of his foolish actions) to become a starting QB in the NFL would mess with dog fighting. Then again I've seen prominent people do some pretty stupid stuff.
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Dog Fighting is an activity that is more popular than many may think. I've never personally have seen it or have been a part, but I know of individuals who have been involved. It is wrong, but people do it as a form of gambling. It's not a ghetto thing as people have implied. The guy I knew lived in the burbs and it takes a certain amount of land and of course capital to be a part of something like this. These sort of activities are done around the world were people take and raise animals to compete against one another to the death. I think Vick should be penalized if he is guilty, he will not get jail time. I do feel that Vick is being targeted because of his stature. Take the informants who participate in the same activities who are providing the FEDS with the info- I think this is wrong. This case is a case to attack or to go after someone based on their celebrity.
 
rabbit_72

rabbit_72

Member
Dog fighting is extremely violent. If Vicks is proven guilty, then he deserves the sentence to be the harshest it can legally be. I am not a pitbull lover, but they are still dogs, therefore life and they didn't ask to be abused in this way or any other way.
If Vicks takes a plea, then to me at least, he's admitting to guilt over this and in either case, needs to be removed from the NFL. Young boys look at sport figures as heros, even though these guys are just average people who get overpaid. But kids don't understand this. IMHO, these guys should be made fully aware of this burden of heroism they carry whether they like it or not. They need to set a good example.
 
pontius

pontius

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
If you're ever called for jury duty do society a favor and decline.
I know more about the legal system than you'll ever know, thanks. it happened on his property, he's guilty. and the feds don't usually bring an indictment unless it's a sure thing, this ain't magistrate or even state court where a good lawyer can get you off. a federal charge is the big time.
Originally Posted by Ryan1
I do feel that Vick is being targeted because of his stature. Take the informants who participate in the same activities who are providing the FEDS with the info- I think this is wrong. This case is a case to attack or to go after someone based on their celebrity.
wrong. this isn't a guy that happened to go to one dog fight or even own one dog that was involved in a fight. this was a large scale dogfighting ring where supposedly millions of dollars changed hands. it's a big deal, and they were right to go after him, because he's the one that owned the property where it all took place.
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pontius
I know more about the legal system than you'll ever know, thanks. it happened on his property, he's guilty. and the feds don't usually bring an indictment unless it's a sure thing, this ain't magistrate or even state court where a good lawyer can get you off. a federal charge is the big time.
wrong. this isn't a guy that happened to go to one dog fight or even own one dog that was involved in a fight. this was a large scale dogfighting ring where supposedly millions of dollars changed hands. it's a big deal, and they were right to go after him, because he's the one that owned the property where it all took place.
I bet Vick is not the ringleader of this investigation, but is probably the target. Secondly, the law that makes this a Federal crime has only been in existence for like a year. They are going to have to proove that he has attended these events since then. And for the killing of the dogs, he may get a cruelty to animals charge- but he will not do jail time and he will remain in the NFL. The NFL is a job, just like any other job.
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by rabbit_72
Dog fighting is extremely violent. If Vicks is proven guilty, then he deserves the sentence to be the harshest it can legally be. I am not a pitbull lover, but they are still dogs, therefore life and they didn't ask to be abused in this way or any other way.
If Vicks takes a plea, then to me at least, he's admitting to guilt over this and in either case, needs to be removed from the NFL. Young boys look at sport figures as heros, even though these guys are just average people who get overpaid. But kids don't understand this. IMHO, these guys should be made fully aware of this burden of heroism they carry whether they like it or not. They need to set a good example.
These guys are not heros, and parents should teach their childen this. They are not average athletically, which is why they have their jobs, they have a specific skill set that we don't have.
I think people are just sympathetic to dogs. People have chicken fighting contests, bull runs, rodeos, bull fighting, and etc...Nothing asks to be abused, but in my opinion its hypocritical to want to throw the book at Vick while animals are abused everyday and its legal.
 
pontius

pontius

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
I bet Vick is not the ringleader of this investigation, but is probably the target. Secondly, the law that makes this a Federal crime has only been in existence for like a year. They are going to have to proove that he has attended these events since then. And for the killing of the dogs, he may get a cruelty to animals charge- but he will not do jail time and he will remain in the NFL. The NFL is a job, just like any other job.
whether he's the ringleader or not doesn't matter, it happened on his property with some of the dogs that were bred by his "breeding company". from what I understand, there IS video of him at one of the dog fights. he's as good as convicted already because the evidence is pretty airtight.
now will he actually do any jail time? I seriously doubt it. but this is not where he's being targeted for being famous or being black or being anything else. this was a dogfighting ring on a large scale, and it's too big to ignore. will he remain rich? yes. is he long for the NFL? I doubt it. because I doubt any other NFL team would want him at this point and he's not Petrino's type of QB to begin with and a lot of people slowly are started to realize he was overrated all along. yes, he can run. but he has no accuracy and fast DEs and LBs can shut him down. he's good for about 8 wins a season, that's not good. and with all this new baggage, who would want him? I don't see him in the NFL more than another season or 2 and if he has any kind of morality clause in his contract, the Falcons will probably dump him as soon as they get the chance..
Originally Posted by Ryan1
These guys are not heros, and parents should teach their childen this. They are not average athletically, which is why they have their jobs, they have a specific skill set that we don't have.
I think people are just sympathetic to dogs. People have chicken fighting contests, bull runs, rodeos, bull fighting, and etc...Nothing asks to be abused, but in my opinion its hypocritical to want to throw the book at Vick while animals are abused everyday and its legal.
yes, they ARE 'heroes' and 'role models' whether they think they are or not. kids will dress a certain way and act a certain way because of them. that's why they get paid the big bucks, to put people in the seats. and those people in the seats want role models. animal abuse isn't legal, don't know where you got that. chicken fighting is illegal just like dog fighting. the bull running thing is in another country, not the US, so it's not even relevant to this conversation. you can look at rodeos as being abused, and I'd agree to a point, but it is not nearly as bad as dogfighting because the bulls aren't killed, and when they can't do it anymore, they're put out to pasture and make money for their owners off stud fees.
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
What I'm saying is that they should not be role models, just like other celebrities should not, but that's another conversation. And I know his race has nothing to do with this so lets not start that, but his celebrity has a lot to do with how the case is handled.
What I'm saying is that this has only been a serious crime for a year, and that we allow/accept various other forms of animal cruelty, and I know that most on this site are probably more sympathetic towards animals, so I would expect more people would say throw the book at him..
He'll be in the NFL for more than another 2 years. If the Falcons drop him, he'll surface with another team. His career is not over. Vick is very talented and has a huge arm. The problem he's had is with the offensive systems he's had and his lousy recievers who drop balls. Crumpler, his only reliable target has had huge seasons. He should have more to show for his career, however, I'd say at least 50% of it is not his fault. They have invested in Mike Vick, and the only way he'll go is if he has multiple bad seasons or there is a huge majority of the fans who want him gone, which I doubt will happen unless again he has mulitple bad seasons.
 
pontius

pontius

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
What I'm saying is that this has only been a serious crime for a year, and that we allow/accept various other forms of animal cruelty, and I know that most on this site are probably more sympathetic towards animals, so I would expect more people would say throw the book at him..
He'll be in the NFL for more than another 2 years. If the Falcons drop him, he'll surface with another team. His career is not over. Vick is very talented and has a huge arm. The problem he's had is with the offensive systems he's had and his lousy recievers who drop balls. Crumpler, his only reliable target has had huge seasons. He should have more to show for his career, however, I'd say at least 50% of it is not his fault. They have invested in Mike Vick, and the only way he'll go is if he has multiple bad seasons or there is a huge majority of the fans who want him gone, which I doubt will happen unless again he has mulitple bad seasons.
I think you are underestimating how big a dogfighting ring this is and how bad this is perceived publicly. I personally think that dog racing and horse racing are animal abuse, but those 2 things pale in comparison to dogfighting. dogfighting is perhaps the most vicious thing that someone can do to an animal. what, in your opinion, is equally as bad as dogfighting? living in SC (which borders Georgia), I know A LOT of Falcon fans and most of them were already growing tired of Vick. I think there is going to be a major backlash against the Falcons if they try to hold onto him and I stand by my claim that no other team would want him (at least as a QB, possibly as a WR, but not with all the baggage he brings). also, his endorsement deals are going to start dropping like flies. he's NOT a quality QB. and he hasn't had the greatest receivers in the world, but you said yourself that Crumpler is one of the best TEs in football. and I watched Peerless Price before he ever came to ATL. he WAS a good receiver until they hooked him up with Vick.
as far as the role model thing. maybe they SHOULDN'T be role models, but they ARE. they are used to sell shoes, jerseys, video games, vitamins, toys, football cards, everything else. so yeah, they're role models whether they like it or not.
as for race, you didn't bring it up, but it HAS been brought up already. particularly by the local prosecutor in Virginia. this is a big dogfighting ring and something this big would be prosecuted even if it were some joe schmo running it, it just wouldn't be all over the news like it is now.
 
rabbit_72

rabbit_72

Member
I completely stand by my statement. He is a rolemodel, hereo, to kids. Not to me or my kids and I hope a sports star never is.
Dog fighting is violent, more violent than dog or horse racing. After I heard about the greyhounds plight, I'd never go to another race again.
I do not think this site is any more biased to the treatment of animals, but when I have time, I'll check it out.
On the race issue, it is stuff like this that gives good people of the same race a bad name. I am sure that other African Americans are just as outraged as anyone else.
And on the NFL issue, I don't watch a lot of football. I am a hometown fan of the Philadelphia Eagles. If it were an Eagles QB, I'd have an absolute fit about this until he was kicked out. I hope the Falcon's fans do the same. I don't care how good or bad at football he is. He is just plain bad PR.
 
rylan1

rylan1

Active Member
Ok, he is a role model to some but he shouldn't be is all I'm saying. I think if its true about what he is accused of, it is pretty serious, specifically the way some dogs were killed. This will hurt his endorsements, but he will continue to play in the NFL. As I mentioned about his recievers, none are good, and Price hasn't done anything, isn't he with the 'Skins now? Last year he had a pretty good season, especially in the beginning of the year.
But race has nothing to do with this case. It does't make me feel anything as an african american- it doesn't say anything about or does not represent the black community. This case would be treated the same if it were someone of another race. There should be no shame felt by anyone accept Vick's employers, fans, family.
 
adairable

adairable

Member
I think that we should let our legal system take care of this and until he is proven guilty actions taken against him are unfair and should stop. He is getting enough unfair treatment from people that have no knowledge of what happened except what they read on their favorite celebrity blog or a newspaper that is going to cast a particular light on this subject because of how they wish for it to be perceived.
Also, he has a whole lot of people he is supporting (family & friends) and I am sure not all of them are always keeping out of trouble (ahem..Marcus). So, I think we should let the people we hopefully trust in figure this out.
 
jmick

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Adairable
I think that we should let our legal system take care of this and until he is proven guilty actions taken against him are unfair and should stop. He is getting enough unfair treatment from people that have no knowledge of what happened except what they read on their favorite celebrity blog or a newspaper that is going to cast a particular light on this subject because of how they wish for it to be perceived.
Also, he has a whole lot of people he is supporting (family & friends) and I am sure not all of them are always keeping out of trouble (ahem..Marcus). So, I think we should let the people we hopefully trust in figure this out.
You wanna talk about unfair you need talk about the 40+ dogs that were killed on his property becuase they were not mean enough or lost dogs fights and were subsquently drowned, smashed, suffocated or killed in some other fashion. Vick is a piece of crap and I hope he loses millions of dollars in endorsements over this and his career...not only is he one of the most overrated players in the NFL but he's also an idiot and a scumbag.
 
bigarn

bigarn

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
You wanna talk about unfair you need talk about the 40+ dogs that were killed on his property becuase they were not mean enough or lost dogs fights and were subsquently drowned, smashed, suffocated or killed in some other fashion. Vick is a piece of crap and I hope he loses millions of dollars in endorsements over this and his career...not only is he one of the most overrated players in the NFL but he's also an idiot and a scumbag.
Very well put!
 
adairable

adairable

Member
Well I have met him and went to school with him and he was never anything but a gentleman. And I can't believe you speak like that on a public website.
 
f14peter

f14peter

Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
I think kicking him out of the nfl is a little harsh but he does deserve some punishment... now I think.
Why do we have to wait to see how the criminal charges come out? He may be innocent until proven guilty in a courtroom (the single largest fallacy in the legal system by the way) but the nfl is not a courtroom. There is no reason that an organization such as the nfl has to give anyone the legal and/or constitutional protection that they get in the courtroom. It doesn't really matter that much anyway because he will end up pleading to a lesser charge, probably a misdemeanor, and doing some community service and nonreporting probation. And that won't really tell us what his involvement actually was.
The new commissioner is making his approach very clear. Let the guy go commit crimes and work at McDonalds rather than for the Falcons.
Also, the league is not bound to wait upon the judgement of a court to render their own punishment. Even an arrest/indictment, without a conviction, is often enough to spur the league to take action.
Every NFL player (As do almost all professional sports league players) have a conduct-cause in their contract ... if the team and/or league determine their conduct is detrimental to team/league, then they can take action, regardless of what a civil/criminal court decides. If a player feels they didn't get due process, as determined by the league and not a court, then there's an appeal process.
Considering what's happened in other "Celebrity" cases, with many judicial departments jumping the gun or stretching bounds in the hopes of "Baggin' a big one" or scoring a landmark conviction, I would imagine that the arresting authorities have gotten all their ducks in a row and made sure they have a very good case before naming Vick in the indictment.
 
jmick

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Adairable
Well I have met him and went to school with him and he was never anything but a gentleman. And I can't believe you speak like that on a public website.
LOL, in highschool we had a teacher who was involved with a student and at the time I knew him and he was a gentleman and I'd never guess he'd do such a thing....but seeing somone on the quad or running into them from time to time doesn't really give you the full picture of who they are does it? Did you also know him as Ron Mexico??
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top