Morish Idol Help

[ophiura]

It has been tested, and it has generally failed. A few triumphs does not, IMO, mean that they are a suitable fish to try and keep for most. There are "working" combinations that I am sure do not amount to a 400g tank...and loads of failures, I am sure, in equally large tanks. Until you can get 60-70% survival at least in system type X, then I'll remain a skeptic and discourage any purchase of this fish. Until more predictions can be made, it may very well come down to the individual fish, the individual microfauna being grown within a specific system, and other highly variable things. It is strange to me how several survivng fish overwhelm all of those who died. Seems a common trend in this hobby as a whole with any difficult to keep animal. :notsure:
The whole thing is JMO tho

Anyway, if anyone has the system to try, you certainly do. I would just ask that if you succeed after a year, that you temper anyone else's effort with the facts of your situation. People may read about your success, and think they can do it too, without the same type of system. Enough of these fish die because of their beauty

But I agree that it would be great to hear from other people who have kept them more than a year. I've kept one about that long in an LFS tank....

 

[angelsrock]

Originally Posted by sw65galma
As a hard core car enthusiast, I like a good challenge.
So this weekend I picked up a MI for my 300 gal w/65 fuge with 700lbs of LS and 700lbs of LR.
I've read a lot about them and fully aware of how tuff it is to get them to eat and keep them. We'll see.
I don't recommend anyone in less than a 300 try them...and I say 300 not so much because of the room (which they do need) but more for water stability.
you do not deserve to have fish if this is your attitude. if you read up on them you would know that it is not only the size of a tank, how well they eat, or water quality that these fish do not do well. like COWFISHRULE said "get your head out of your -#$"

 

[ophiura]

Actually, thanks for calling my attention to that. I understand, folks, that emotions run high on this sort of issue.
Heck, I am riddled with guilt because I had my two fish (Kole tang, sixline) for a year, and decided the other week to add basically the last on the list - a coral beauty. Well that coral beauty has been a PITA, and the Kole doesn't want to back down either. So what does this equal? Yes, my first experience with some ick. Just a touch now, but I can't stand the thought that just because I wanted another pretty fish I may lose that Kole. I really take that hard. I'm thinking about it constantly - probably visibly depressed. I told my manager about it this morning first thing!
But not everyone is like that. And there are people who do no research, have 10g tanks, and really don't give a darn at all. So let's be aware of that, try and discourage or encourage or whatever, but try not to get too mean, OK

 

[fishieness]

aww ophiura
i love how you are such a peacemaker!
way to go! :happy:

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by fishieness
aww ophiura
i love how you are such a peacemaker!
way to go! :happy:

LOL, of course, there was also a gun by that nickname. So I guess no one will ever know the real me

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by angelsrock
you do not deserve to have fish if this is your attitude. if you read up on them you would know that it is not only the size of a tank, how well they eat, or water quality that these fish do not do well. like COWFISHRULE said "get your head out of your -#$"
I think if you actually read my posts you note that i did do tons of research including talking to a Dr of marine biology. And that I knew ahead unlike most people who buy them that it's gonna be a challenge and not your average fish. That is what I meant by that comment...
I'm tempted to flame you back for only have 26 posts here and flaming me, but then that wouldn't make me look good.
Instead, I leave you with the fact that i have a 15gal, 27gal, 46gal, 180gal, 300gal w/65gal fuge..So you can rest well knowing that i'm no n00b (im no expert) trying this like others are.
Now think if No one ever tried to take hard to care for species and figure them out, we'd have like 10 fish to choose from in the LFS, someone gotta figure them out..
There is a key element we are missing...who knows i might find it..or not..
Now dont get me wrong, i'm in no way condoneing everyone to go out and get one..There are some knowns with this fish...and one is a near perfect large system.

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by ophiura
It has been tested, and it has generally failed. A few triumphs does not, IMO, mean that they are a suitable fish to try and keep for most. There are "working" combinations that I am sure do not amount to a 400g tank...and loads of failures, I am sure, in equally large tanks. Until you can get 60-70% survival at least in system type X, then I'll remain a skeptic and discourage any purchase of this fish. Until more predictions can be made, it may very well come down to the individual fish, the individual microfauna being grown within a specific system, and other highly variable things. It is strange to me how several survivng fish overwhelm all of those who died. Seems a common trend in this hobby as a whole with any difficult to keep animal. :notsure:
The whole thing is JMO tho

Anyway, if anyone has the system to try, you certainly do. I would just ask that if you succeed after a year, that you temper anyone else's effort with the facts of your situation. People may read about your success, and think they can do it too, without the same type of system. Enough of these fish die because of their beauty

But I agree that it would be great to hear from other people who have kept them more than a year. I've kept one about that long in an LFS tank....
I agree with everything you said, but as with any other fish it really depends on the fish.
It's like the blue linkia...It's down to the speciamen
I'm hoping I got a good one..

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by COWFISHRULE
taking an animal out of the wild and putting him where he is almost certained to die is animal cruelty. i really wish that some people would get their head out of their *** and realize that maybe this is an animal that should be left alone.
good luck with your idol, a heniocous (sp) would have been a much better choice, but whatever. its your conscience, not mine.

Ha how many fish have you killed?

I was on here helping you out when you are were a n00b.
Where you get off even questioning my abilities is beyond me...I thought we were cool.
I love how most of you people get on here, listen to a few people then next thing you know you are self proclaimed experts and can proceed to criticize other people and people with 10x more experience than you. I'm not saying i'm an expert by any means...so how you other guys with a fraction of my experience can think of yourself as an expert is beyond me...
I think we had a gang on here called the Tang Police, i guess everyone in this thread has just been inducted to the national brother hood of Morish Idol Police....

 

[fishieness]

i tense some more oncomming hostility that usualy always occures during posts having to do with keeping these beutiful fish.... So this time I will try to be the peacekeeper to make sure no knives will be thrown...
LETS GO WHALERS!!!*clap**clap*clapclapclap*
*bow* Ahem... thank you very much and lets try to help eachother out here instead of flinging dung at eachother.
-peace, love, and unity

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by fishieness
i tense some more oncomming hostility that usualy always occures during posts having to do with keeping these beutiful fish.... So this time I will try to be the peacekeeper to make sure no knives will be thrown...
LETS GO WHALERS!!!*clap**clap*clapclapclap*
*bow* Ahem... thank you very much and lets try to help eachother out here instead of flinging dung at eachother.
-peace, love, and unity
Lets not confuse hostility with constructive critiscism. Or atleast I was trying for that..
I'm always up to be constructivly critiscized.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by sw65galma
I agree with everything you said, but as with any other fish it really depends on the fish.
It's like the blue linkia...It's down to the speciamen
I'm hoping I got a good one..
I think we know more about the needs of a Linckia, and can provide for them more easily, than a moorish idol. In your size tank with loads of LR you could potentially have even a blue Linckia asexually reproduce. Having said that, I would probably ban most Linckia from this hobby. I think they are generally inappropriate, and that we don't have a right to keep anything just because we want it.
I hope you get a good one as well. My question is: how many will you try? At what point do you say "nope, won't try another." And lets say you had 3 die before you got one to live, because your system, though appropriate, can not help shipping trauma. Is that a worthwhile ratio? Let's say we know EXACTLY what is needed to keep idols long term, but in general most die of shipping stress...still worth doing?
And this is all philosophical - no ill will intended

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by ophiura
I think we know more about the needs of a Linckia, and can provide for them more easily, than a moorish idol. In your size tank with loads of LR you could potentially have even a blue Linckia asexually reproduce. Having said that, I would probably ban most Linckia from this hobby. I think they are generally inappropriate, and that we don't have a right to keep anything just because we want it.
I hope you get a good one as well. My question is: how many will you try? At what point do you say "nope, won't try another." And lets say you had 3 die before you got one to live, because your system, though appropriate, can not help shipping trauma. Is that a worthwhile ratio? Let's say we know EXACTLY what is needed to keep idols long term, but in general most die of shipping stress...still worth doing?
And this is all philosophical - no ill will intended

I see where you are going with this, But i know personally how many other types of fish i've gotten dead in shipment....How many fish in general die? i'd say Millions....
If this fish isn't endangered, (playing devils advocate) what's the difference?
Food for thought :happyfish

 

[fishieness]

no no no sw65galma. i was not saying you were being hostile. I said i sence hostility will come. I was tyring to defend you. That was directed to the others who were being hostile to you or will be. Many of them are very educated on the subject, i konw that, but i dont think the right is given to say anything more than an opinion instead of being mean to others.
and i saw you got a little offended, which will make the people it was directed to get offended also and the cycle will never stop.
i was mearly trying to break the tention, not impose that i was calling you out for being hostile.
The best of luck with the idol.

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by fishieness
no no no sw65galma. i was not saying you were being hostile. I said i sence hostility will come. I was tyring to defend you. That was directed to the others who were being hostile to you or will be. Many of them are very educated on the subject, i konw that, but i dont think the right is given to say anything more than an opinion instead of being mean to others.
and i saw you got a little offended, which will make the people it was directed to get offended also and the cycle will never stop.
i was mearly trying to break the tention, not impose that i was calling you out for being hostile.
The best of luck with the idol.
It's all good and thanks for defending me :cheer:
I see what you are saying about the cycle of flames lol, but I wouldn't let that happen.
It's nice to see people this passionate about this hobby. Hell i'm $20,000+ into it...

 

[cowfishrule]

I love how most of you people get on here, listen to a few people then next thing you know you are self proclaimed experts and can proceed to criticize other people and people with 10x more experience than you. I'm not saying i'm an expert by any means...so how you other guys with a fraction of my experience can think of yourself as an expert is beyond me...
QUOTE]
you are right. i apologize for throwin the flames so quick.
just that previous to reading your thread, i came across 3 or 4 others that were like, "im going to attempt to keep a Great White in my bathtub, and i dont care what anybody says"
yeah, were still cool

 

[ophiura]

I will also add that expertise has very little to do with the issue. It is an ethical question, and we all have limits on that...whether we started in the hobby this morning or 20 years ago I can understand Cowfishrule's POV ...the attitude of "I'm gonna do it anyway" is quite common, and IMO part of the reason the hobby can get a bad reputation or frustrate other hobbyists.

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by ophiura
I will also add that expertise has very little to do with the issue. It is an ethical question, and we all have limits on that...whether we started in the hobby this morning or 20 years ago I can understand Cowfishrule's POV ...the attitude of "I'm gonna do it anyway" is quite common, and IMO part of the reason the hobby can get a bad reputation or frustrate other hobbyists.
ophiura,
I guess what I dont understand is...why is everyone so "ETHICAL" now about..say an IDOL when more Clownfish are needless kiled by these same people...Yellow tangs killed.
I see these on a daily basis...why is it ok to kill these fish and not be all "Ethical" about it, when 1 Idol owner every few months.
If you do that math, the amout of other fish killed on this board alone is 1000x times more than Idols, and other hard to care for species combined!
Why do we not say "NO you can't own a clown, you are gonna kill it because you are a n00b" it's not little or no chance of survial for a beginner...
My idol has a better chance than any beginners Damsel for that matter...
So i dont' get it... :thinking: :notsure:

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by sw65galma
I love how most of you people get on here, listen to a few people then next thing you know you are self proclaimed experts and can proceed to criticize other people and people with 10x more experience than you. I'm not saying i'm an expert by any means...so how you other guys with a fraction of my experience can think of yourself as an expert is beyond me...
QUOTE]
you are right. i apologize for throwin the flames so quick.
just that previous to reading your thread, i came across 3 or 4 others that were like, "im going to attempt to keep a Great White in my bathtub, and i dont care what anybody says"
yeah, were still cool
Ya but there is a difference between a resonable situation and pure outlandishness.
Like if I said i'm gonna keep a Sohol tang in my Nano...Not reasonable.
Idol in a 300....I think is reasonable...May not work...but atleast it's Reasonable?? and not Outlandish to think do you not agree?
Same goes for the guys who are building a 14,000 gal shark tank....not unreasonable...insane maybe...but not unreasonable...

 

[ophiura]

I think what gets people going is thinking that the poster will find the "answer" to what they need. That people with certain types of tanks need to experiment, etc, with certain types of fish. I think that can be interpreted in a bad light. Come out and say "yeah, I got all the fish from Nemo and that's what I want, I know its a difficult fish to keep but I will provide all I can for it - they are imported into the hobby and they stand as good a chance as any, maybe better, in my tank" I think the other attitude can get annoying. I just prefer a different approach JMO tho.
Yes, you are correct, and that is why I often wouldn't sell fish to many people, and why I probably more commonly talk people out of fish than encourage them to buy them. I also most strongly disagree with people wanting the cheapest LFS, just for the sake of low price. Low price may often mean low care. And I would strongly encourage buying captive raised fish.
Clownfish have a darn good chance of surviving in captivity...a very good chance actually. We know how to feed them, keep them and breed them. I would not say that 9 out of 10 die, but the estimates on moorish idol mortality I've heard in that ballpark. Fish that do not have good survival rates (eg sweetlips) or grow too large for most tanks (eg panther groupers, green moray, sharks) I think I pretty consistently oppose keeping at all, or at a minimum having proper tanks for them from the outset.
Most fish in the hobby, we know how to keep. Many, many die in transit...something that one would hope could be worked on. If they weren't so cheap and apparently plentiful, then maybe they would get better care. Maybe it is time to impose more stringent restrictions on collecting. I don't believe that it should be overlooked. I don't believe it is an excuse for buying a fish that is known to have a low mortality just because other types of fish also die. One can survive and just receives poor care in transit; the other just does not survive well at all period. They are a different caliber of issue in my mind. It may not be for you, which is fine.
Again, this is all a philosophical non-threatening discussion

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Again, this is all a philosophical non-threatening discussion

Of course it is
But since the demand is different for fish i think the mortality in numbers is probably the same..
Lets say 9 out of 10 Idols die and lets say 2 out of 10 Clownfish die....
I would venture to say that more than 100x the amount of clownfish are sold compared to Idols...Seeing how my LFS alone has only had 1 idol and about 200 CF.
so in that case 20 cf die to 9 idols...
I'm not saying thats ok by any means, but it is all relative...