Morish Idol Help

[shawnts106]

You don't test it enough to now the fluctuations...and there are fluctucation, you just don't test enough to know they are happening...these will doom your fish...

I think your over reacting... everything is stable.. salinity fluctuates between .001 every 3 days... that isnt stable enough???
what else isnt stable??? Ca and Alk... these have to do with Coral growth.. not fish to my "limited" knowledge... please explain...
Also, you should also read in my other thread about my recent uping my maintainence on my tank in preparation of this fish... for a week ive been on TOP TOP TOP of things... sorry I didnt post that here!
Like i said, after hearing this...i wouldn't by any means think of you as an Expert, trying this Expert Only fish...

AND WHO ON EARTH DIED AND MADE YOU DEAMER OF EXPERT AQUARISTS?
no offence, but that has absolutely NO relevence to this thread at all.. besides the "EXPERT" """""" EEXXXXPERRTT ... GEEZE!" anyway.. Fish statement!
ANYWAY!
PS>.. and NO that wasnt name calling.. just a simple "smart butt" question

I beleive I can explain the position. Fisrt, many lfs's will stock these animals....not all are special order. The way most econmies work in the free world ...supply and demand. If there is a demand for an animal the collector will stock them. If there is little or no demand, the collector will cease collecting the animal or drastically reduce the numbers collected. He/she cannot afford to collect animals and not be able to move them to retailers.
I understand where your comming from.. and OF COURSE relize this myself.. but if they are and going to continue to... someone might as well try and save one... .. NO my LFS does NOT keep these in stock .. at all... and we *I work there* do NOT sell these fish special order that is.. to someone whos tank is not "worthy".... in 5 years we have sold 1 single fish.. to someone who has a 300gallon tank.. full of reef, a refugium and such.... let me tell you this... this person can keep PURPLE AND BLUE LINKIA STARS ALIVE.. for YEARSSSSSSSSS someone who can do that.. and keep Gonis alive for years can try a fish like this...
NO "technically" my tank is NOT "worthy" of this fish.. but I do WANT to try one... so I am... bottom line... I can and will.. but will NOT go overboard on it!
If I lose this one.. maybe one more years down the road.. but no more than 2...
if they are going to collect.. I am willing to TRY AND SAVE ONE... get my point????
I see where your going with that statement... and agree with it.. because it is a fact of life... but do you understand my "reasoning??" or point?
thanks
LMAO!... and what the mess IS THAT > h* ... looks like someone on crack or something!

 

[beth]

I'm not sure most here are understanding your point. This may clarify some things though....
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...21%21%21%21%21

 

[molamola]

if they are and going to continue to... someone might as well try and save one
This is the same mentality that keeps illegal drugs on the market. "Even if I don't buy drugs on the street, they're still going to keep selling them, so why stop doing it?"
Furthermore, I don't see what you have accomplished on this board by posting this, other than frustrating a lot of well meaning people. Sure, sometimes their approach isn't the kindest, but I think we are all in agreement that everything that breathes and has life on this Earth deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. I see your point, but I don't think it's a good one.
I remember you once saying that seahorses are better left in the ocean, as they are impossible to keep, but countless people have had nothing but success with them, whereas the general consensus on Moorish Idols is they truly are delicate and no one has had real success. So, where do you draw the line? Seahorses are known to be quite hardy in the right system, goniopora and alveopora, and Moorish Idols are known to be fragile, yet you insist on keeping them and proving us all wrong at the expense of a living animal, which I find a little disturbing. And saying, "If this one doesn't work out, I'll try another, but no more than that..." That's two too many in my opinion.
I think that having a 300 gallon specifically designed to house a Moorish Idol is a bit different than putting it in a 75 gallon. There's nothing scientific about it. You just want the fish.
I wouldn't put a white tiger in my hall closet and feed it lettuce just to see if I could. And I wouldn't buy an elephant tusk under the mentality that "They're just going to keep poaching them anyway."
I'm not trying to sound hateful or rude, but I'm confused (and that happens easily) about your true intentions. I hope it works out though, and I hope if you lose this one, you won't go for a second.

Please don't take my tone as negative or hostile. You want us to see your point, and we want you to see ours

 

[ophiura]

this person can keep PURPLE AND BLUE LINKIA STARS ALIVE.. for YEARSSSSSSSSS someone who can do that.. and keep Gonis alive for years can try a fish like this...
OF COURSE THEY CAN...they are almost EASY to keep in large mature reef tanks and 300g is certainly suitable. They will reproduce in these systems. This is common knowledge, not some exception (or necessarily exceptional aquarist or tank). We KNOW that with increased amount of LR, generally correlated with larger tank size, the survival rate of Linckia increase markedly. The clear assumption then is that they feed on something relatively specific on LR.
We can not yet make this assumption about moorish idols, however. The correlation is not so clear, IMO.
So the problem is where the BOTTOM of that line is...people trying to keep them in 55 and 75 g tanks without enough LR. A definite parallel to the moorish idols, except that a large tank is still no guarantee with idols. But LINCKIA STARS would be pretty EASY to keep in large systems. You have someone come on this board and say hey, Ophiura, I have a 1 year old 200g tank with 300lbs of LR can I keep a blue Linckia? I would say "definitely give it a try" assuming it makes it through acclimation. How many times have I had that question??? VERY VERY few. I have people with 12 to 75g tanks asking that question, and then the answer is different. And it is the same case with the moorish idol.

 

[f1shman]

Man this is one of the most intresting adn frusturating threads to read. SW, Oph, and others contiunally try to convince this naive dude that moorish idols are not right for his system and that he shouldn't buy one. And he continually comes back yelling at us telling us we're wrong and that his tank is perfect and that if they sell he should buy. I think we should all just give up on him, he's obviosully not going to listen to what we say, everyone of his posts has been saying the same thing, "if they sell them I might as well buy one". Even though "Economics 101" was clearly explained.

 

[darth tang]

You are still going to "special order" this fish and house it in an environment known to be insufficient in raising and keeping this fish? Why? That is asinine. And I am done with this discussion.

 

[sw65galma]

Originally Posted by Beth
I'm not sure most here are understanding your point. This may clarify some things though....
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...21%21%21%21%21
Ya I think that's what I was referring too... :yes:
Also
Originally Posted by Shawnts106
what else isnt stable??? Ca and Alk... these have to do with Coral growth.. not fish to my "limited" knowledge... please explain...
If you don't know how these effect fish, then for gods sake read a book!

If you look at most of the specs for fish they list thier ideal ALK for water.
Also how do you think fish grow and stregthen bones? (Hint: It's not with algae)
Originally Posted by Shawnts106
AND WHO ON EARTH DIED AND MADE YOU DEAMER OF EXPERT AQUARISTS?
no offence, but that has absolutely NO relevence to this thread at all.. besides the "EXPERT" """""" EEXXXXPERRTT ... GEEZE!" anyway.. Fish statement!
ANYWAY!
PS>.. and NO that wasnt name calling.. just a simple "smart butt" question
See section 4 paragrah 6 of forum rules -*SW65GALMA has hereby been granted set forth the power to determine expertness of Aquaria and shall be deemer of all expertness throughout this forum.

 

[ophiura]

Not to mention, calcium, alkalinity and magnesium all play a role in this thing called "pH" and it is important to keep a stable pH with fish.
But to say that everything in the tank is stable, when we typically test only a small FRACTION of what we could test for is misleading. A very common assumption, but to use a few factors as the basis for whether or not to do a water change could be risky apart from being unrealistic, IMO. There aren't a lot of 75g natural long lasting coral associated marine ecosystems that get no external exchange.

 

[shawnts106]

"Even if I don't buy drugs on the street, they're still going to keep selling them, so why stop doing it?"
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? this has NOTHING TO DO.. and furthermore is a very bad illustration to what you are trying to get through to me.... Ill just leave it at that!
Furthermore, I don't see what you have accomplished on this board by posting this, other than frustrating a lot of well meaning people. Sure, sometimes their approach isn't the kindest, but I think we are all in agreement that everything that breathes and has life on this Earth deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. I see your point, but I don't think it's a good one.
Well frankly... I dont really care if I upset someone if I buy...or as they see it, "take" one fish out of the ocean to see if I can keep it... as you all keep saying everyones system is different... so why not give it a try!... I dont really care if you all think im crazy... or "stupid" or whatever else.. but I came here asking questions .. which is HOW we learn..
Thank you for seeing my point.. sorry you dont think its a good one!
I remember you once saying that seahorses are better left in the ocean, as they are impossible to keep, but countless people have had nothing but success with them, whereas the general consensus on Moorish Idols is they truly are delicate and no one has had real success. So, where do you draw the line? Seahorses are known to be quite hardy in the right system, goniopora and alveopora, and Moorish Idols are known to be fragile, yet you insist on keeping them and proving us all wrong at the expense of a living animal, which I find a little disturbing. And saying, "If this one doesn't work out, I'll try another, but no more than that..." That's two too many in my opinion.

Seahorses are better left in the ocean.. Morish Idols arent! ... LOL, ok just a bit of humor.. bad humor but.. nevermind!
Yes seahorse are better left in the ocean, Morish Idols are too... so are yellow tangs, clowfish, Gonis and Alves are too.. as well as feather dusters, sponges, starfish, clams, hermit crabs.. ect.. ect... ect.... this is there NATURAL environment... this is where they live the longest in most cases, and do the best... in most cases... this is common sense... however since we are ALL BUYING these creatures for our OWN PLEASURE then why is everyone fussing if you buy something rare.. or harder to get to live... so what.. your going to ---- the ocean of all the easy stuff and just leave the hard to keep stuff there??? this is stupid, crazy and dumb..... IF I WANT TO TRY A FLIPPEN GREAT WHITE SHARK IN MY 75 GALLON TANK I CAN IF I WANT TO..... DUH IT WOULD DIE.. OR NOT EVEN MAKE IT PAST ACCLIMATION... but if I want to I can.... as long as the EPA approves of it ... lol, and as long as I can LEGALLY get my hands on one...
I can LEGALLY get my hands on a Morish Idol... ... I can LEGALLY get my hands on some Advil.... as long as Im doing it legally then whats wrong? OHHH I MIGHTTT KILL A FISH!.... sorry if millions die a year.. not my problem... its the problem of the person that collected them.... do I care that all these fish DIE.. yes... but I dont loose sleep over it.... do I wish they would stop collecting them? YES.. but they ARENT EVER GOING TO... so I might as well give one a shot at life again!... get the picture?
A living animal is nothing more than cells grouped together in a specific patern... wow.. I disrubted that patern.... oh well! once again.. GET OVER IT! geeze!
I think that having a 300 gallon specifically designed to house a Moorish Idol is a bit different than putting it in a 75 gallon. There's nothing scientific about it. You just want the fish.
Yup, pretty much!... but the fish that goes in the 300 gallon has more room to swim.. but still came from the same collection tub.. Just one has MORE of a chance to survive...
I wouldn't put a white tiger in my hall closet and feed it lettuce just to see if I could. And I wouldn't buy an elephant tusk under the mentality that "They're just going to keep poaching them anyway."
Trigerfish dont live on land.. that is a really bad example... but the elephant tusk thing is a good one.. however.. dont let the tusk go to waste... send it off to some laboratory and check it for fingerprints..... lol, you probably wont find any... but at least you tried to get the people who killed the elephant!

 

[shawnts106]

I'm not trying to sound hateful or rude, but I'm confused (and that happens easily) about your true intentions. I hope it works out though, and I hope if you lose this one, you won't go for a second. Please don't take my tone as negative or hostile. You want us to see your point, and we want you to see ours
oh.. ok, well I took it as being rude... but thats just me... sooooo, Yeah I do want you people to see my point.. and I DO SEE YOURS...
what you all are saying is DONT BUY ONE because they will just collect another to replace that one... this is logical.. and of course obveous... but the ones they now have could have another chance at life.. in other words they COULD live in a tank for another year... or they can die in a collection tub in a week or so... my point in very rational too... we are BOTH right and BOTH of us have very good points... why am I being put down for mine???
OF COURSE THEY CAN...they are almost EASY to keep in large mature reef tanks and 300g is certainly suitable.
hum.... I didnt relize this before.. never thought of it.. thanks for opening that door for me there! orph!
The clear assumption then is that they feed on something relatively specific on LR.

We can not yet make this assumption about moorish idols, however. The correlation is not so clear, IMO
agreed... but if LR isnt the answer then why are people fussing at me for putting it in my tank with such a smaller amount of LR???? hum?
And he continually comes back yelling at us telling us we're wrong and that his tank is perfect and that if they sell he should buy. I think we should all just give up on him, he's obviosully not going to listen to what we say, everyone of his posts has been saying the same thing, "if they sell them I might as well buy one". Even though "Economics 101" was clearly explained.

sorry you think that I am yelling at you that you are wrong... I just clearly said we both that good opinions... yes I hear you all loud and clear.. your obveously not hearing me.. or you are but arent acknowledging it....
You are still going to "special order" this fish and house it in an environment known to be insufficient in raising and keeping this fish? Why? That is asinine. And I am done with this discussion.
yeah.... oh and Asinine is spelled Insane... also, thank you for getting out of this discussion.. thats one less person I have to deal with gday!/>
If you look at most of the specs for fish they list thier ideal ALK for water.
I have never seen this posted in any book.. but as you said it does... and you gave valid reasons for it.. so I agree thank you for this information.. Im not a scientist , and honestly have never really sat down and thought about this... I always assumed that these fish consume Ca and such from the foods they eat... which they probably do too!
See section 4 paragrah 6 of forum rules -*SW65GALMA has hereby been granted set forth the power to determine expertness of Aquaria and shall be deemer of all expertness throughout this forum.
really... All I saw was
Section 4:.....
Paragraph 6: SW65GALMA has hereby been granted set forth the power to be a total
$#*!--$$ to every living soul on this forum.... ect ect ect
darn.. must have missed that part!!!
If you don't know how these effect fish, then for gods sake read a book!
please dont use religion in your statements... anyways.... I have read MANY MANY books and have never came by this.... sorry I didnt read the same ones you did!
Not to mention, calcium, alkalinity and magnesium all play a role in this thing called "pH" and it is important to keep a stable pH with fish.
Well I buff every time I put new water (top off) in the tank and keep the pH stable that way... so I dont think I have a problem there
But to say that everything in the tank is stable, when we typically test only a small FRACTION of what we could test for is misleading. A very common assumption, but to use a few factors as the basis for whether or not to do a water change could be risky apart from being unrealistic, IMO. There aren't a lot of 75g natural long lasting coral associated marine ecosystems that get no external exchange.
yeah... I hear ya.. loud and clear..... and thats pretty much it! LMAO!!!!

 

[f1shman]

Here we go again. The reason moorish idols should be in the ocean more then many other speicies of fish if because basically they have a 0% success rate. Clownfish probably have like 90% when put in the right enviroment, EVEN when in the right enviroment moorish idols die quickly. And just because things are legal doesn't mean you can do them as much as you want and kill tons of fish. And you saying that all the moorish idols are going to die anyways so you might as well take one if many are dying in others tanks and that they are never going to stop being collected. Well lets see, if everyone who makes the idiotic mistake of buying one of these very "mysterious" and decliate creatures realizes that they shouldn't have ever bought one, then they will not be collected, but since people like you who say "ehh who cares other people are doing it so I might as well give it a shot" are contributting to the problem and will make it never end. A living animal is nothing more then cells grouped together is what you said, how does you buying a moorish idol disrupt their cell pattern? what the heck are you talking about? And one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, "Triggers don't live on land" he said a white TIGER, TIGER as in the cat-like animal.

 

[f1shman]

yeah.... oh and Asinine is spelled Insane... also, thank you for getting out of this discussion.. thats one less person I have to deal with gday!
Asinine - utterly stupid or silly
Insane - dealing with insanity or persistant mental disorder or derangment
I don't know if you were trying to be funny, but Asinine is indeed a word of its own.

 

[shawnts106]

And just because things are legal doesn't mean you can do them as much as you want and kill tons of fish
I didnt say I would do it as much as I wanted to... I COULD IFFFFF I WANTED TO... but I will only try 2 at the MOST... more than likely I will only try 1
A living animal is nothing more then cells grouped together is what you said, how does you buying a moorish idol disrupt their cell pattern? what the heck are you talking about?

IF I BUY ONE.. and it dies.. it will disrumpt is cell pattern.. aka it will fall apart and ROT... therefore its cells will fall apart and die.... the same can be said if I was to buy a goldfish and plant it in my garden.. it will die.. and its cell pattern will be disrupted.. just nevermind this is obveously a dumb example of what I was trying to say... although typing isnt exactly the easiest thing to try and get your thoughts out...
And one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, "Triggers don't live on land" he said a white TIGER, TIGER as in the cat-like animal.

LOL!! MY I HAD A GOOD OL' LAUGH at this one... I didnt read very carefully... lol, I could of swore that it was TRIGER not TIGER.. LOL!!!! absolutely halarious...
even then.. the tiger would probably break down the door and eat you!... and Triggerfish do NOT LIVE ON LAND!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

I don't know if you were trying to be funny, but Asinine is indeed a word of its own
lol, I didnt know that Asinine is a word... the way I read it .. I thought you meant to spell INSANE but had a retarded hand thing going on.... hum.. thank you for enlarging my vocabulary!... I suppose youve never heard of the phrase : " Uu Baina Daa" either.. thats because its a foreign language.. its Mongolian for WHATS UP!!!!!!... that doesnt meen your stupid... just that you are not familiar with that word...

 

[f1shman]

LOL well you responded to my comments nicer then i expected, thanks lol

 

[f1shman]

and no offense, but when something dies, i don't think its cells are disrupted... anyways, at least you understand that it was a bad example to get your point across.

 

[scully]

This site really needs a banging your head against the wall smilie.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by Scully
This site really needs a banging your head against the wall smilie.

:yes: I'll 2nd that.

 

[darth tang]

lol, I didnt know that Asinine is a word... the way I read it .. I thought you meant to spell INSANE but had a retarded hand thing going on.... hum.. thank you for enlarging my vocabulary
Pay attention. I used the word "asinine", not F1shman. F1shman just clarified it for you. I find it funny that a person with the common sense and intelligence of regurgitated phytoplankton, has the audacity to use a reference about mental competance towards someone else. Especially since you were the one uneducated in your native language.
I suppose youve never heard of the phrase : " Uu Baina Daa" either.. thats because its a foreign language.. its Mongolian for WHATS UP!!!!!!... that doesnt meen your stupid... just that you are not familiar with that word...
No, it does not mean a person is unfamiliar with the word. It means they are unfamiliar with the language. There is a large difference between not knowing a phrase in a language you have never spoken or heard, and not knowing a word (a pretty basic word taught in high school at that) in the language you were raised to speak since the age of 2, and read since atleast the age of 6.
although typing isnt exactly the easiest thing to try and get your thoughts out
Funny, everyone else seems to do just fine typing out their thoughts and getting them across in a legible, logical, and intelligent manner. What seems to be your problem? Hand malfunction? To much Dt's in your cereal? Brine shrimp down your pants? Cyclopleaze in your socks? What has you so flustered you can't type out your thoughts?
Now I stated I was done with the Moorish Idol discussion. However, I have no problem responding to the many colorful adjectives and statements you will, and have made, that have nothing to do with the moorish idol discussion.

 

[darth tang]

Quote:
I wouldn't put a white tiger in my hall closet and feed it lettuce just to see if I could. And I wouldn't buy an elephant tusk under the mentality that "They're just going to keep poaching them anyway."
Trigerfish dont live on land.. that is a really bad example... but the elephant tusk thing is a good one.. however.. dont let the tusk go to waste... send it off to some laboratory and check it for fingerprints..... lol, you probably wont find any... but at least you tried to get the people who killed the elephant!
TIGER! Didn't see anything about Triggerfish in that statement. No wonder you never read the information people give you here in the books you have read. Pay Attention.

 

[f1shman]

Funny, everyone else seems to do just fine typing out their thoughts and getting them across in a legible, logical, and intelligent manner. What seems to be your problem? Hand malfunction? To much Dt's in your cereal? Brine shrimp down your pants? Cyclopleaze in your socks? What has you so flustered you can't type out your thoughts?
Man thats definitly gave me a good laugh.