News flash: the war in Iraq is NOT a war against terror

[scubadoo]

Saddam knew we were coming ...to think he would leave his remaining WMD out in the open, in a building, stockpiled in a yard or places easily found would be 'silly". Certainly , he would seek to hde and/or move the weapons.
Some might say...but wouldn't he want to use them? The counter to this is by not using them in large numbers but moving and/or hiding them he has produced more damage to our cause then actually using them.
he has now accomplished far more damge to the cause. To use them would have only caused a deeper fire within all of us to continue on, to strengthen our resolve.
The terrorists know us well....we are predictable. We have proven numerous times we cannot stay foucused long.
our great, noble, and brave military has accomplished much in Iraq and in other areas since the war on terror began , but they cannot do it alone.
Not one scud missle, one WMD, or one terrorist has hit us here at home since the war...so how can we allow them to win the battle here at home? How can we allow them to defeat our reslove, our cause and our spirit? Are we a country of quitters, whinners and criers?
Get over it, suck it up and rally behind the noble cause. Quit the whinning and get tough..and send the message....
"we are here to kick ass and chew gum...and we are all out of gum!" Rody Piper

 

[scubadoo]

Can a global war on terror that allows the Saddam regime to remain in power be classified a success?
So, we issue notice to all terrorists nations and various factions we are coming to get you if you do not cease your operations......but not you Saddam....?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jcrim
Maybe you're not such a #%$&%... hmmm. :thinking:
Or maybe I am... and I'm just playing mind games with ya..

Anyway, If I have made a bad impression I apologize. Certainly was not my intent. I'm used to dealing face to face with a crowd (High School students) that expects bluntness.
Scbadoo, what mailing list are you on? I like to think I'm pretty well versed in worldly events, but you can crank out the quotes like a madman..
Beth, Yes, the President should have argued for the war in a different way. Probably the dumbest thing his admin. has done. (The fact that he doesn't ask for my opinion still boggles me...). The countdowns were moronic.. I remember when President Reagan invaded Granada and bombed Libya. He went on the news and was like "Well, today I ordered this..". No countdowns, no postering to the UN, no waiting for pollsters to decide which way public opinion was going..

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by jcrim
I hear ya... the baby's dropped and is actually at -2 station (if you're familiar with that). She's also 100% effaced meaning that things could move really fast and there is a snowstorm here tonight.
I was married 18 years but no kids. Sorry, can't give you any advice other then thoughts and prayers with you and Mrs J.
Keep us informed on the progress.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Or maybe I am... and I'm just playing mind games with ya..

Anyway, If I have made a bad impression I apologize. Certainly was not my intent. I'm used to dealing face to face with a crowd (High School students) that expects bluntness.
Scbadoo, what mailing list are you on? I like to think I'm pretty well versed in worldly events, but you can crank out the quotes like a madman..
Beth, Yes, the President should have argued for the war in a different way. Probably the dumbest thing his admin. has done. (The fact that he doesn't ask for my opinion still boggles me...). The countdowns were moronic.. I remember when President Reagan invaded Granada and bombed Libya. He went on the news and was like "Well, today I ordered this..". No countdowns, no postering to the UN, no waiting for pollsters to decide which way public opinion was going..
I am not really on many lists. I form my own opinions based on readings, etc...then seek out info to substantiate. You can usually figure out those that may be in the know form those that are in the specualtion business....some or boderline. Some I bookmark..others I remember and can google...some I stumble upon.
I am surprised regarding those that argue against...for example Salam Pak has been one site whene there is info that this was simply an anti-terrorism site...yet none of the opposing view brought that here as I recall.
This tells me much of what I suspect....many believe what they are told....but few take the time to figure it out for themselves or find evidnece to support. I heard it from Dan Rather hinself...therefore it must be so.
I still beleive Salman Pak was most likely a terrorists training facilty......but I can assure you there is info out there to the contrary.
JMO

 

[darth tang]

I personally believe Americans suffer from selective memory loss. They war was not only about WMD. Bush stated as much in the beginning. I will list in order the resons he gave. He did not place WMD 1st on the list. The media took that one item and ran however thus pushing it to the fore front of the American people as the reason. However I fault the Administration for going along with it.
To prove that WMDs were not the main and only reason adn ALL the reasons given now were the original reasons then I will show the parts of the speech to the Union and the UN in order where he gives the reasons.
The speech to the UN as read accordingly.
n 1991, Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities — which, the Council said, "threaten(ed) international peace and security in the region."
This demand goes ignored. Last year, the U.N. Commission on Human rights found that Iraq continues to commit "extremely grave violations" of human rights and that the regime's repression is "all pervasive." Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, summary execution, and torture by beating, burning, electric shock, starvation, mutilation, and ----. Wives are tortured in front of their husbands; children in the presence of their parents — all of these horrors concealed from the world by the apparatus of a totalitarian state.
In 1991, the U.N. Security Council, through Resolutions 686 and 687, demanded that Iraq return all prisoners from Kuwait and other lands. Iraq's regime agreed. It broke its promise. Last year the Secretary-General's high-level coordinator of this issue reported that Kuwaiti, Saudi, Indian, Syrian, Lebanese, Iranian, Egyptian, Bahraini, and Omani nationals remain unaccounted for — more than 600 people. One American pilot is among them.
In 1991, the U.N. Security Council, through Resolution 687, demanded the Iraq renounce all involvement with terrorism, and permit no terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq. Iraq's regime agreed. It broke its promise. In violation of Security Council Resolution 1373, Iraq continues to shelter and support terrorist organization that direct violence against Iran, Israel, and Western governments. Iraqi dissidents abroad are targeted for murder. In 1993, Iraq attempted to assassinate the Emir of Kuwait and a former American President. Iraq's government openly praised the attacks of September 11th. And al-Qaida terrorists escaped from Afghanistan are known to be in Iraq.
In 1991, the Iraqi regime agreed to destroy and stop developing all weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles, and to prove to the world it has done so by complying with rigorous inspections. Iraq has broken every aspect of this fundamental pledge.
From 1991 to 1995, the Iraqi regime said it had no biological weapons. After a senior official in its weapons program defected and exposed this lie, the regime admitted to producing tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents for use with Scud warheads, aerial bombs, and aircraft spray tanks. U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared, and has failed to account for more than three metric tons of material that could be used to produce biological weapons. Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.
United Nations inspections also reveal that Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard, and other chemical agents, and that the regime is rebuilding and expanding facilities capable of producing chemical weapons.
And in 1995 — after four years of deception — Iraq finally admitted it had a crash nuclear weapons program prior to the Gulf War. We know now, were it not for that war, the regime in Iraq would likely have possessed a nuclear weapon no later than 1993.

 

[darth tang]

Today, Iraq continues to withhold important information about its unclear program — weapons design, procurement logs, experiment data, an accounting of nuclear materials, and documentation of foreign assistance. Iraq employs capable nuclear scientists and technicians. It retains physical infrastructure needed to build a nuclear weapon. Iraq has made several attempts to buy high-strength aluminum tubes used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon. Should Iraq acquire fissile material, it would be able to build a nuclear weapon within a year. And Iraq's state-controlled media has reported numerous meetings between Saddam Hussein and his nuclear scientists, leaving little doubt about his continued appetite for these weapons.
In 1991, Iraq promised U.N. inspectors immediate and unrestricted access to verify Iraq's commitment to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles. Iraq broke this promise, spending seven years deceiving, evading and harassing U.N. inspectors before ceasing cooperation entirely. Just months after the 1991 cease-fire, the Security Council twice renewed its demand that the Iraqi regime cooperate fully with inspectors, "condemning" Iraq's "serious violations" of its obligations. The Security Council again renewed that demand in 1994 and twice more in 1996, "deploring" Iraq's "clear violations" of its obligations. The Security Council renewed its demand three more times in 1997, citing "flagrant violations" and three more times in 1998, calling Iraq's behavior "totally unacceptable." And in 1999, the demand was renewed yet again.
As we meet today, it has been almost four years since the last U.N. inspectors set foot in Iraq — four years for the Iraqi regime to plan and build and test behind a cloak of secrecy.
We know that Saddam Hussein pursued weapons of mass murder even when inspectors were in the country. Are we to assume that he stopped when they left? The history, the logic and the facts lead to one conclusion. Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave and gathering danger. To suggest otherwise is to hope against the evidence. To assume this regime's good faith is to bet the lives of millions and the peace of the world in a reckless gamble. And this is a risk we must not take.
fast forward a bit...........
f the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately and unconditionally forswear, disclose and remove or destroy all weapons of mass destruction, long-range missiles and all related material.
If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all support for terrorism and act to suppress it, as all states are required to do by U.N. Security Council resolutions.
If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will cease persecution of its civilian population, including Shi'a, Sunnis, Kurds, Turkomans and others — again as required by Security Council resolutions.
If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will release or account for all Gulf War personnel whose fate is still unknown. It will return the remains of any who are deceased, return stolen property, accept liability for losses resulting from the invasion of Kuwait, and fully cooperate with international efforts to resolve these issues
as required by the Security Council resolutions.
If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all illicit trade outside the oil-for-food program. It will accept U.N. administration of funds from that program, to ensure that the money is used fairly and promptly for the benefit of the Iraqi people.
We can harbor no illusions. Saddam Hussein attacked Iran in 1980, and Kuwait in 1990. He has fired ballistic missiles at Iran, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Israel. His regime once ordered the killing of every person between the ages of 15 and 70 in certain Kurdish villages in Northern Iraq. He has gassed many Iranians and 40 Iraqi villages.

 

[darth tang]

And since I feel like it, what he said right after the invasion began:
"The enemies you confront will come to know your skill and bravery. The people you liberate will witness the honorable and decent spirit of the American military. In this conflict, America faces an enemy who has no regard for conventions of war or rules of morality. Saddam Hussein has placed Iraqi troops and equipment in civilian areas, attempting to use innocent men, women and children as shields for his own military -- a final atrocity against his people.
I want Americans and all the world to know that coalition forces will make every effort to spare innocent civilians from harm. A campaign on the harsh terrain of a nation as large as California could be longer and more difficult than some predict. And helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable and free country will require our sustained commitment. "

 

[scubadoo]

yes, selective memory loss is a definite problem. it woudl appear to me that those that oppose the war...bring little to the table as to what their plan is/will be regarding the war on terror.
many will offer an opinion (including politicians) but they will bring little if any detail as to how they would now proceed.
This tells me that all they are doing is making political statements. THey offer no plan at all.
Even Hillary Clinton now wants to change her vote.......as she is positioning for a run at the presidency. I have not really seen her comprehensive plan regarding the war on terror.
It is really annoying to listen and read all the whinning regarding WMD. You would think that politicicans as well as th the Amrecian people have the congnitive skill to look at the past and realize the regime in Iraq posed a continuing threat.
Unfortunatley, the president has done a poor job communicating with the Amreican people over the past year or so regarding the war.
Me, I would have a press conference every other week at a minium...at the beginning, I would play taped footage of the planes flying into the buildings. The conference would serve as a update as to the progress, etc. This would serve a reminder to all as to why we continue on against the terrorists and those that promote and embrace.
We are fighting an uncoiventioanl war/enemy...which calls for unconventional action on our part.
The bully pulpit should be used regularly.
That which does not destory us only makes us stronger......
Serve notice on a regular basis.....there is a new player in town...we are coming for you if you do not cease your terrorist activity...and we are pissed.
We should now have a new attitude......we're walking tall...and carrying a Louisville Slugger. Time to play some Home Run Derby.

 

[darth tang]

Personally I agree. Bush has done a poor job communicating.
I also feel he should have took a more Reaganish type of action. Instead of asking the people and giving time to the enemy...he should have just come out in a speech Like Reagan did against Libya.......Remember .....the beginning of Reagan's speech went like this..
This morning I ordered............
No pandering, no polls, no votes, no concern about UN.....just action.......maybe then the WMDs would have been there and the issue wouldn't be the big deal it is now. Then he could have pandered what and how to deal with the country AFTER it was taken and the weapons secured. The pandering I believed cost us time and ruined our chances greatly. Our leaders since Reagan spend to much time pandering instead of being decisive and firm up front...I miss Reagan....Jfk as well. Two people from both parties that weren't concerned about polls and did what was right without checking polls.
I love how people state congress voted to give Bush Authorization to go to war then point out it was his decision that led us there.
Do you get mad at your kids if you tell them they can stay out till 2 a.m. and get drunk then get mad when they actually act on that approval? It is your fault as much as theirs for giving approval in the first place.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Personally I agree. Bush has done a poor job communicating.
I also feel he should have took a more Reaganish type of action. Instead of asking the people and giving time to the enemy...he should have just come out in a speech Like Reagan did against Libya.......Remember .....the beginning of Reagan's speech went like this..
This morning I ordered............
No pandering, no polls, no votes, no concern about UN.....just action.......maybe then the WMDs would have been there and the issue wouldn't be the big deal it is now. Then he could have pandered what and how to deal with the country AFTER it was taken and the weapons secured. The pandering I believed cost us time and ruined our chances greatly. Our leaders since Reagan spend to much time pandering instead of being decisive and firm up front...I miss Reagan....Jfk as well. Two people from both parties that weren't concerned about polls and did what was right without checking polls.
I love how people state congress voted to give Bush Authorization to go to war then point out it was his decision that led us there.
Do you get mad at your kids if you tell them they can stay out till 2 a.m. and get drunk then get mad when they actually act on that approval? It is your fault as much as theirs for giving approval in the first place.
They are only whinning and crying because of the public opinion polls. They have no courage or conviction ..... .
Even Hilalry Clinton sites the past history of Iraq as reason to take Saddam out. in her speech as posted here earlier. So, she will now have you beleive that she really did not mean this...but what she meant was we were going to take him out because of the WMD. Since we have yet to FIND (emphasis added) these weapons she cries "the wool was pulled over my eyes". She has further stated she never would have voted as she did...which can only leave one to beleive that she felt Saddam was a swell guy and the regime possed no threat since the stockpile has yet to be found. Is this the level of her cognitive skill?
The media needs to review the 1998 congressional action which called for the removal of Saddam but did not authorize military action. If Saddam posed no threat, those still in office which voted for this action need to answer why they believe he posed such a threat then, and why they now think leaving him in power is/would have been okay.
And lets not forget this action passed under Clinton. So, for those in Washington that voted in 98 and now cry and whine, please let us know what changed. Also, Hillary where do/did you stand regarding this?
Do we wish to turn back the clock when we ignored the problem?

 

[nytrillium]

"News flash: the war in Iraq is NOT a war against terror "
YA think....... ?

 

[reefbabe]

Thank you Darth Tang, ScoobaDoo and Ilovethesea for your support of our active troops. My husband is an active US Marine and has been serving now for 15 years. A year and a half after we were married, he was deployed for 6 months and left me with a 5 month old baby. He came home for 8 months and left again for 4 months, I was pregnant and my son was 20 months old. He came back narrowly missing the birth of our daughter but then having to leave again for seven months when she was only 3 months old. I HAVE sacrificed much, but I would never EVER be so selfish as to regret what my husband has given for the Iraqi people. We have given so that they might have the joys that WE ALL have...freedom. This was a good war, there has been soooo many lives saved for the price of a few.
We live in an instant gratification society...just because we can have a meal in 5 minites doesn't mean we can win a war that fast. I have heard the cries of many that have lost their friends, their husbands, their children. I ask the Marines "Was it worth it" every one of them has said yes. "To see the smiling faces of the women and children, hear them chant our names.....no more oppression, no more fear or threat". It was cute...this one marine said that the children knew that the men loved soda so they would contunuously run up to the Marines and give them pepsi's. The people who are out on the streets are not being shot at or bombed....those of them in fear of being so (or not voting because) , do you blame them. How can a people who have been terrorized for generations and who have been forced by threat for fear of their lives or the lives of their loved ones....change overnight or even in a few years? The person who posted that Iraqi's just need to shut up, then they wouldn't be raped or beat...where is your charity and compassion. Is this how you would want to live your lives? Saddam was a terrorist himself...anyone (even in his office) who opposed him would become an enemy and "taught a lesson". Here's some of the things Saddam did: If you did not do as he asked, you were tortured/beat/killed...or your family. One of his favorite methods was to tie a persons feet upon an elevated block and take a nice big club and beat the bottoms of the feet into a pulp. He also liked to push people off 4-5 story buildings while their hands and feet were tied. Both of which death did not come...just immeasurable pain. He also has a huge hate for the Kurds, exactly like Hitler for the Jews in that he wanted to exterminate them to extinction. Mass Genocides...which they DID find! Saddam dumped the bodies in a big pit and threw some dirt over them. For fun, he would take a Kurd and bound up his hands, throw a blind fold on him, and toss him in a large crater. The crater was formed by blowing up numbers upon numbers of human Kurdish people. This guy got off on human suffering.... he took MUCH pleasure in his work. There are thousands and thousands of tortures that Saddam has inflicted and he has caused millions to suffer and die because of his lusts. I am PROUD to sacrifice for the relief of this people and I would hope that the American people would have as much compassion.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Personally I agree. Bush has done a poor job communicating.
I also feel he should have took a more Reaganish type of action. Instead of asking the people and giving time to the enemy...he should have just come out in a speech Like Reagan did against Libya.......Remember .....the beginning of Reagan's speech went like this..
This morning I ordered............
No pandering, no polls, no votes, no concern about UN.....just action.......maybe then the WMDs would have been there and the issue wouldn't be the big deal it is now. Then he could have pandered what and how to deal with the country AFTER it was taken and the weapons secured. The pandering I believed cost us time and ruined our chances greatly. Our leaders since Reagan spend to much time pandering instead of being decisive and firm up front...I miss Reagan....Jfk as well. Two people from both parties that weren't concerned about polls and did what was right without checking polls.
I love how people state congress voted to give Bush Authorization to go to war then point out it was his decision that led us there.
Do you get mad at your kids if you tell them they can stay out till 2 a.m. and get drunk then get mad when they actually act on that approval? It is your fault as much as theirs for giving approval in the first place.
Yes, now that is something I can agree with. The 6 mos of begging or threatening Saddam to give up WMDs at best was hysterically funny, and at worst nauseating. In all fairness, however, to the presidents of nowdays, they do "catch it" 24/7 by the media [and us]. There is no secret that isn't discovered, or activity that is not subject to being revealed instantly. With an in-your-face society, I bet these modern Presidents have one heck of time trying to run the country AND stay within the graces of the citizens.

 

[beth]

Reefbabe, welcome to Saltwaterfish.com and the discussion! Are you hobbyist?
Thank you and your husband for serving this country. Hope you will stay and chat with us!

 

[reefbabe]

Yes, I am a hobbyist....thank you for your kind welcome and I am glad to be a member of such an informative site! I have a 100g reef and have yet to edit my signature....
Again, thanks for the welcome.

 

[darth tang]

Reefbabe, thanks for your family's sacrifice and Shake your husbands hand for me and give him a beer when you see him. Welcome to the community.
Originally Posted by Beth
Yes, now that is something I can agree with. The 6 mos of begging or threatening Saddam to give up WMDs at best was hysterically funny, and at worst nauseating. In all fairness, however, to the presidents of nowdays, they do "catch it" 24/7 by the media [and us]. There is no secret that isn't discovered, or activity that is not subject to being revealed instantly. With an in-your-face society, I bet these modern Presidents have one heck of time trying to run the country AND stay within the graces of the citizens.
Reagan had the Media in his face scrutinizing every move. The media disliked Reagan greatly. Yet he still had that something about him where he didn't care. He did what he felt was right and didn't worry about the reaction from the people or the media. In the end...his decisiveness proved correct. His term was really no different than the current Presidents as far as coverage and under the public eye. Iran-Contra anyone?

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Reefbabe
Yes, I am a hobbyist....thank you for your kind welcome and I am glad to be a member of such an informative site! I have a 100g reef and have yet to edit my signature....
Again, thanks for the welcome.
Welcome to SWF!!
Are you at Camp Pendleton??

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Reefbabe
Thank you Darth Tang, ScoobaDoo and Ilovethesea for your support of our active troops.
Tkank you, your husband and all active and retired members of our military for your hard work and sacrifice. It is our brave military that protect and preserve the freedoms we all enjoy.
Thanks for all you have done and continue to do.

 

[reefbabe]

Originally Posted by socal57che
Welcome to SWF!!
Are you at Camp Pendleton??
Yes we are....the hub has been here since '93 which is rare thing to be stationed in one area for so long. We're trying to go to Okinawa (small island off of mainland Japan)...wouldn't mind seeing those reefs! Also, I'd just like to say what a truely informative thread this is and I want to say thanks to those who have been doing their homework and not trusting in what the liberal media "wants us to believe".