News flash: the war in Iraq is NOT a war against terror

beth

Administrator
Staff member
What was wrong was jumping into war before knowing with absolute certainty that there were WMBs[before using that as the excuse for war] OR make the case based on the various points that all you all bring up here. But don't lie or mislead to get us to war.
jcrim, how far along is your wife?
 

aw2

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
What was wrong was jumping into war before knowing with absolute certainty that there were WMBs[before using that as the excuse for war] OR make the case based on the various points that all you all bring up here. But don't lie or mislead to get us to war.

The thing is....there REALLY was proven intelligence that he had WMD.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by AW2
The thing is....there REALLY was proven intelligence that he had WMD.

Then why haven't we seen the warehouses on TV?? Doesn't the US boast of being able to see a pimple on your nose from a satellite system in space??? Yet we made this little boo-boo. :scared: Somewhat convenient boo-boo.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Polish Troops Find Sarin Warheads
Friday, July 02, 2004
WARSAW, Poland — Terrorists may have been close to obtaining munitions containing the deadly nerve agent cyclosarin that Polish soldiers recovered last month in Iraq, the head of Poland's military intelligence said Friday.
Polish troops had been searching for munitions as part of their regular mission in south-central Iraq when they were told by an informant in May that terrorists had made a bid to buy the chemical weapons, which date back to Saddam Hussein's war with Iran in the 1980s, Gen. Marek Dukaczewski told reporters in Warsaw.
"We were mortified by the information that terrorists were looking for these warheads and offered $5,000 apiece," Dukaczewski said. "An attack with such weapons would be hard to imagine. All of our activity was accelerated at appropriating these warheads."
Dukaczewski refused to give any further details about the terrorists or the sellers of the munitions, saying only that his troops thwarted terrorists by purchasing the 17 rockets for a Soviet-era launcher and two mortar rounds containing the nerve agent for an undisclosed sum June 23.
In May, a booby-trapped artillery shell apparently filled with the sarin nerve agent exploded alongside a Baghdad road but caused no serious injuries to the U.S. forces who discovered it. At the time, officials stopped short of claiming the munition was definite evidence of a large weapons stockpile in prewar Iraq or evidence of recent production by Saddam's regime.
The warheads all contained cyclosarin, multinational force commander Polish Gen. Mieczyslaw Bieniek said.
"Laboratory tests showed the presence in them of cyclosarin, a very toxic gas, five times stronger than sarin and five times more durable," Bieniek told Poland's TVN24 at the force's Camp Babylon headquarters.
"If these warheads, which were still usable, were used on a military base like Camp Babylon, they would have caused unforeseeable damage."
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Scaba, could you include your sources when you post your news articles?
 

aw2

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
Then why haven't we seen the warehouses on TV?? Doesn't the US boast of being able to see a pimple on your nose from a satellite system in space??? Yet we made this little boo-boo. :scared: Somewhat convenient boo-boo.


Whether or not it makes the president/administration look bad, we still dont disclose classified information.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
If this is so, then why was Iraq dealt with so severely as opposed to an alternately unique way? And, how exactly are we dealing with....Iran? Iran is a terrorist state and they hate our guts. And, they want to eliminate our allies.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...eut/index.html
If Iraq becomes a successful Democracy, the regime of Iran will fall.
Iraq was dealt with in this manner because, imho, they showed that they were willing to invade their neighbors before...
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Both supporters and opponents of Islamic terror have provided abundant evidence of Hussein’s support for a wide array of terrorists. Consider the following.
· Hussein paid bonuses of up to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers.
“President Saddam Hussein has recently told the head of the Palestinian political office, Faroq al Kaddoumi, his decision to raise the sum granted to each family of the martyrs of the Palestinian uprising to $25,000 instead of $10,000,” Iraq’s former deputy prime minister, Tariq Aziz, announced at a Baghdad meeting of Arab politicians and businessmen on March 11, 2002, Reuters reported two days later.[5]
Mahmoud Besharat, who the White House says disbursed these funds across the West Bank, gratefully said, “You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue.”[6]
Such largesse poured forth until the eve of the Iraq war.
As Knight-Ridder’s Carol Rosenberg reported from Gaza City last March 13: In a graduation-style ceremony Wednesday, the families of 22 Palestinians killed fighting Israelis received checks for $10,000 or more, certificates of appreciation, and a kiss on each cheek—compliments of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein.” She added: “The certificates declared the gift from President Saddam Hussein; the checks were cut at a branch of the Cairo-Amman bank.”
This festivity, attended by some 400 people and organized by the then-Baghdad-backed Arab Liberation Front, occurred March 12, just eight days before American-led troops crossed the Iraqi frontier.[7]
Hussein’s patronage of Palestinian terror proved fatally fruitful. Between the March 11, 2002, increase in cash incentives to $25,000 and the March 20, 2003, launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, 28 homicide bombers injured 1,209 people and killed 223 more, including 12 Americans.[8]
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
There is no way that I believe that Bush is holding back revealing WMB....do you think for a minute that he would risk being re-elected if he had WMB's to whip out????
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Key terrorists enjoyed Hussein’s warmth, some so recently that Coalition forces subsequently found them alive and well and living in Iraq. Among them:
o U.S. Special Forces nabbed Abu Abbas last April 14 just outside Baghdad. Abbas masterminded the October 7–9, 1985, Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking in which Abbas’s men shot passenger Leon Klinghoffer, a 69-year old Manhattan retiree, then rolled him, wheelchair and all, into the Mediterranean. Abbas briefly was in Italian custody at the time, but was released that October 12 because he possessed an Iraqi diplomatic passport. Since 2000, Abbas resided in Baghdad, still under Saddam Hussein’s protection.[10]
o Khala Khadr al Salahat, a member of the ANO, surrendered to the First Marine Division in Baghdad on April 18. As the Sunday Times of London reported on August 25, 2002, a Palestinian source said that al Salahat and Nidal had furnished Libyan agents the Semtex bomb that destroyed Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, on December 21, 1988, killing 259 on board and 11 on the ground. The 189 Americans murdered on the sabotaged Boeing 747 included 35 Syracuse University students who had spent the fall semester in Scotland and were heading home for the holidays.[11]
o Before fatally shooting himself in the head with four bullets on August 16, 2002, as straight-faced Baathist officials claimed, Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal (born Sabri al Banna) had lived in Iraq since at least 1999. As the Associated Press’s Sameer N. Yacoub reported on August 21, 2002, the Beirut office of the ANO said that he entered Iraq “with the full knowledge and preparations of the Iraqi authorities.”[12] Nidal’s attacks in 20 countries killed at least 275 people and wounded some 625 more. Among other atrocities, an ANO-planted bomb exploded on a TWA airliner as it flew from Israel to Greece on September 8, 1974. The jet was destroyed over the Ionian Sea, killing all 88 people on board.[13]
· Coalition troops have shut down at least three terrorist training camps in Iraq, including a base approximately 15 miles southeast of Baghdad, called Salman Pak.[14] Before the war, numerous Iraqi defectors had said that the camp featured a passenger jet on which terrorists sharpened their air piracy skills.[15]
“There have been several confirmed sightings of Islamic fundamentalists from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Gulf states being trained in terror tactics at the Iraqi intelligence camp at Salman Pak,” said Khidir Hamza, Iraq’s former nuclear-weapons chief, in sworn testimony before the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee on July 31, 2002. “The training involved assassination, explosions, and hijacking.”[16]
“This camp is specialized in exporting terrorism to the whole world,” former Iraqi army captain Sabah Khodada told PBS’s Frontline TV program in an October 14, 2001 interview.[17] Khodada, who worked at Salman Pak, said, “Training includes hijacking and kidnapping of airplanes, trains, public buses, and planting explosives in cities . . . how to prepare for suicidal operations.” Khodada added, “We saw people getting trained to hijack airplanes. . . . They are even trained how to use utensils for food, like forks and knives provided in the plane.” A map of the camp that Khodada drew from memory for Frontline closely matches satellite photos of Salman Pak, further bolstering his credibility.[18]
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Scuba, all I am saying is: Bush should have made the case that you guys are making. Not lied. Is that so much to ask??
I'm not refuting what any of you say....at least you are going thru the trouble to try and be convincing. To make the case.
I remember the countdown and ultimatums that lasted for 6 mos. That in itself was pretty dumb. Lets tell Saddam that we are going to war mos ahead of the fact so he has plenty of time to unload whatever it is he did have. Why go thru the motions with the UN and make such a big deal over WMDs? If there were so many other reasons to go to war, and the WMDs was not the "reason" for war?
 
J

jcrim

Guest
Originally Posted by Beth
jcrim, how far along is your wife?
She's 39 weeks today. Been having contractions a lot but who the hell knows if they are for real.
Originally Posted by 1Journeyman

Nothing personal...
I guess what I'm asking for is "proof" that what we did (and are doing) is wrong. That's why I try to make a counterpoint to yours posts.
I respect your opinion too much to sing the "I'm not listening" song. In fact, I'm listening closely. I WANTED you to come back to this thread.. you started it, after all
I simply don't understand your logic, so by going point to point I'm hoping to learn more. I am also always willing to be "wrong", but I'm going to need more than your (so far) generic posts and opinions to change my mind.
Hope that clears up the confusion. Like I said, I value your opinion (as well as anyone else that I disagree with).
Now hurry up and post something else so I can tell you you're wrong!
Maybe you're not such a #%$&%... hmmm. :thinking:
 

scubadoo

Active Member
THe jury is still out wheteher the waepons exist and/or existed. We have some defectors caliming they are buried and not easliy found...and other defectors claiming they were moved to Syria .a position I have taken very early in this thread. Given the history of the Saddam regime, there is no doubt in my mind..NONE...that he was continuing his WMD program at some level.
Nizar Nayuf (Nayyouf-Nayyuf), a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, said in a letter Monday, January 5, to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf,” that he knows the three sites where Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) are kept. The storage places are:
-1- Tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria. These tunnels are an integral part of an underground factory, built by the North Koreans, for producing Syrian Scud missiles. Iraqi chemical weapons and long-range missiles are stored in these tunnels.
-2- The village of Tal Snan, north of the town of Salamija, where there is a big Syrian air force camp. Vital parts of Iraq's WMD are stored there.
-3-. The city of Sjinsjar on the Syrian border with the Lebanon, south of Homs city.
Nayouf writes that the transfer of Iraqi WMD to Syria was organized by the commanders of Saddam Hussein's Special Republican Guard, including General Shalish, with the help of Assif Shoakat , Bashar Assad's cousin. Shoakat is the CEO of Bhaha, an import/export company owned by the Assad family.
In February 2003, a month before America's invasion in Iraq, very few are aware about the efforts to bring the Weapons of Mass Destruction from Iraq to Syria, and the personal involvement of Bashar Assad and his family in the operation.
Nayouf, who has won prizes for journalistic integrity, says he wrote his letter because he has terminal cancer.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
lol.
You know, just because a woman is in labor doesn't mean she has to rush to the hospital. Unless there is a problem, I would not go until the labor has progressed or if the doctor says to. The baby also drops considerably when labor starts. You can tell by the drop in your wifes abdomen.
 

mudplayerx

Active Member
I see liberals making a lot of accusations and conspiracy theories, but one thing I don't ever see them doing is offering their solutions.
"Pull the troops out of Iraq"
-ok, and then what?
"Bush can't find Osama Bin Laden"
-ok, where do you propose we look?
"North Korea & Iran are the real threats, not Iraq"
-so when the conservatives vote to wage war on them, you won't call us warmongers?
"Conservative went to war in Iraq for oil"
-why am I paying over two dollars per gallon if we are stealing oil?
"We are alienating our european allies"
-you mean the allies selling weapons to our enemies and trading with embargoed countries?
"USA isn't doing enough to aid tragedy-stricken countries"
-the majority of the donations to foreign countries are made by private companies with conservative CEO's
"Contracts are only being given to companies owned by conservative politicians"
-contracts are given to bidders who will do the job for the least amount of money
Just a few
 
J

jcrim

Guest
Originally Posted by Beth
lol.
You know, just because a woman is in labor doesn't mean she has to rush to the hospital. Unless there is a problem, I would not go until the labor has progressed or if the doctor says to. The baby also drops considerably when labor starts. You can tell by the drop in your wifes abdomen.
I hear ya... the baby's dropped and is actually at -2 station (if you're familiar with that). She's also 100% effaced meaning that things could move really fast and there is a snowstorm here tonight.
 

scubadoo

Active Member
Letters to the journalist form the Syrian source...
First Message from the Syrian source to Nizar Nayouf
First messages from a Syrian Source, WMD Location
"Dear Nizar.
We received confirmations that the Iraqi weapons, which were moved to Syria by the help of General Zoul-Himla Chalich are now hidden in three places inside Syria:
First place: a tunnel dug in the mountain close to the Al-Baïdah village, which is roughly two kilometers from Misyaf village. This place is under the 489 Safety cipher Documents' office control .
Second place: the factory of the Air Armed Forces in the village of Tal Sinan, between the town of Hama and Salamiyyah. This factory is under the Air Force control.
Third place: the location of Shinsar, 40 kilometers south of Homs, two kilometers east of the Homs - Damascus road. There are underground tunnels there, controlled by Brigade 661 of the armed air Forces. It is a Brigade of air Patrol. The tunnels are several tens of meters deep.
The weapons were transported in large wooden cases and barrels, under the supervision of the General Zoul-Himla Chalich and the son of his brother Assef, who works at Al-Bachaer company.
The company is owned by the Assad family and has offices in Beirut, Damascus and Baghdad.
This company also undertook the illegal Iraqi oil importation in Syria, and supplied weapons to Saddam. I will try to send you all the new information as i get .
Take care and be safe."
Second Message to Nizar Nayuf
Second messages from a Syrian Source, WMD Location
"Dear Nizar.
I have sent you another chart of the positions which tells where the weapons which were sent from Iraq into Syria, are hidden. Because the preceding chart that I sent you earlier is not clear.
Until now, the authorities in Syria did not worry of what was being published by the Dutch television news about this subject.
New information: The weapons were evacuated by the means of ambulances. Mohammed Mansoura also took part in the operation.
There are other serious, detailed pieces of information concerning the money of Saddam being moved into Syria and into Lebanon and those who took part in moving it - Syrians and Lebanese.Also there are more details about the assassination of the General Moustapha Tajer which took place last summer.
Take care of yourself.
Damascus, January 7, 2004."
 

jones

Member
I think it's about time I scooted from this thread. I think everyones made their positions known. I don't believe anyone will convince each other of anything. It's not like people actualy listen to each other. As is the case unfortunately with many people everywhere, they make up their minds and then try hard to justify it. After a couple days off work it's time for me to get back to the routine, watch my new fish tank, and wait for the next indictment of the top brass, who would never ever, lord forbid, lie to and decieve the people of the America and the world.
Take care, I'm sure I'll see you all on the fish tank boards once I make a major flub with my tank. Ciao.
 
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