Nitrites Off the Chart!

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by tr1gger
http:///forum/post/2704163
I can agree there, i would be completely new with LR and have no clue WHERE to even start with curing and what not and can i add LR to a already established tank

Curing it is simple enough. Use a bin with saltwater, a heater and a power head. Scrub off any decaying matter with a stiff brush. Spread the rock out in the bin and be sure that there is flow around the rocks. Test the water. When the ammonia comes back down to zero and stays there, then there is no more die off. The rock is cured.
If you buy cured rock from a store, rather than having it shipped, then just put it in a tub for a few weeks to be sure that it is FULLY cured. Some stores like to claim that the rock is cured when it is not fully cured. They can charge more that way.
When the rock is done, add it in. You can always add more rock to a tank, as long as it is cured.

 

[tr1gger]

i kind of like where this is going

 

[beth]

You can add, say 15 lbs more or less. Cure in a bucket with a powerhead (and heater if needed) until you have no ammonia or nitrite readings. Then add the rock to the display.
In the meantime, do water changes in the display using saltwater that has been well mixed for at least 48 hrs.
Don't try to clean that sandbed anymore because every time you do, you are killing your biofilter.
BTW, srfisher17, it wasn't me who said that high nitrites was not a problem. I firmly believe that any nitrite is a problem, though not as bad a problem as ammonia.
Also, yes, aquaria is much better off with LR, but this system is FO. So, while we can advocate for the benefits of setting up a tank with LR, the immediate situation needs to be addressed. I'm suggesting adding some LR to address the cycle issue going on here. Many aquarists continue to set up FO tanks, and there's nothing wrong with doing that. They're just a little more challenging to maintain and less forgiving of errors.

 

[beth]

I disagree with scrubbing off the LR. If you get it from the LFS, it should need little time to cycle, and there shouldnn't be much or any die off. Scrubbing results in killing, in my view. But that's just my view, many do scrub.
Have the lfs pack the rock in water, not just wet newspapers.
What kind of substrate do you have?

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2704257
BTW, srfisher17, it wasn't me who said that high nitrites was not a problem. I firmly believe that any nitrite is a problem, though not as bad a problem as ammonia.
.
Sorry if I wasn't clear; what I said was "I read Beth's comment above saying some folks doubt high nitrite is not serious; if that's the case, why worry about it?" I know you were talking about the views of others.

 

[tr1gger]

i don't know whether to decorate with LR around my VERY EXPENSIVE custom hand made artificial reef inserts or to just remove them all together and just start adding LR over the next few months...
I did want to thank everyone for all the advice and opinions. I am currently making a transition between LFS's and am trying to re establish what i had at my old place. Attached is a pick of the Reef inserts i have, any opinions on what to do between the LR and the Inserts would be a great help

 

[beth]

For now, just work with a bit of LR as I suggested. Once the tank is stable, you can decide about going FOWLR.
Those are nice fake corals, but don't do much for your tank environment. The more you can get your tank to work for you, the better.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2704257
.
BTW, srfisher17, it wasn't me who said that high nitrites was not a problem. I firmly believe that any nitrite is a problem, though not as bad a problem as ammonia
Sorry again Beth; this thread is bouncing around so much thatI can't even keep the posts straight.

 

[florida joe]

My six cents
There is no such thing as live rock, rock is about as alive as my, never mind about that. Saying you have live rock is like saying you have a live home. The house is not alive the inhabitants are alive. But I digress. Coraline algae, worms, large and smell crustaceans, clams and sponges inhabit the holes in its porous structure. It also carries heterotrophic, nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria and other microorganisms. Due to the microscopic and macroscopic life that good quality rock contains, it performs a number of important functions. It is a major bio filtration method simply because of the greater area compared to its footprint and thus more nitrifying bacteria colonization. When we stack the rock we then multiply this area with our sacrificing the surface area of our substraight. The big push in “live rock” was predicated on esthetics and the ability to run a totally natural tank with out any mechanical bio filtration

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2704262
I disagree with scrubbing off the LR. If you get it from the LFS, it should need little time to cycle, and there shouldnn't be much or any die off. Scrubbing results in killing, in my view. But that's just my view, many do scrub.
Have the lfs pack the rock in water, not just wet newspapers.
What kind of substrate do you have?
a 5 gallon bucket with a cover half filled with salt water works great for transporting rock for our lfs to your home and for what its worth i never scrub my rock either

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2704064
Doesn't LR usually play a big part in most bio-filter systems? When LR came on the scene, it turned the hobby upside down. Or, do you think LRs ability to deal with nitrates is a big part of the sensation? In a circulation/substrate bio-filter (no LR); what happens to nitrates? With just circulation & substrate; that's really just one step away from the old UG filter (read what Fenner says before you condemn them) . I'm really getting curious and may have learned all the wrong stuff. BTW; I still use UG filters ( Which do not need to be torn down annually, if you know a few tricks. , with big PHs, and HOT filters in my overstocked, 55 gal, no LR, dead coral skeletons, "retro" tank. This tank has been as healthy as any I've ever kept. I've even found a way to keep nitrates down with no more than normal water changes. I don't worry about nitrates; but they can cause a diatom problem, which is not a problem for me either.
Actually T the great advantage of “live rock” is due to the substrate. A rock placed on a sand bottom in the presence of flowing water promotes advection that directs water from deep layers directly into the spaced occupied by the rock. This effect transports ammonium rich water up into the rock, which stimulates the growth of algae, and stimulates nitrification and denitrification with in the rock

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2705164
Actually T the great advantage of “live rock” is due to the substrate. A rock placed on a sand bottom in the presence of flowing water promotes advection that directs water from deep layers directly into the spaced occupied by the rock. This effect transports ammonium rich water up into the rock, which stimulates the growth of algae, and stimulates nitrification and denitrification with in the rock
But don't many sources advise putting the LR on the bare tank bottom and the substrate everywhere except under the LR?

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2705256
But don't many sources advise putting the LR on the bare tank bottom and the substrate everywhere except under the LR?
My good friend you are indeed taxing my limited brain. In the late 1980s recommendations in North American reef aquarium literature discouraged the use of sand or grave on the bottom, as it was perceived as detritus traps and could promote the proliferation of undesirable algae. But it has been learned that sand or gravel beds in a reef aquarium play an important part in nutrient cycling as a refuge for various microorganisms, worms and crustaceans The main reason I believe that was given to put your live rock directly on the bottom was so the initial heavy release of detritus released from the rock could be siphoned away easily. An other reason for the adding of the rock to the bottom before substraight is that a rock arrangement supported by the hard bottom of the aquarium is structurally sounder then on a foundation of sand, which can be undermined easily. Deep sand bed setups often use limestone based rock with in the sand to support rocks positioned higher up to prevent shifting

 

[beth]

Yes, many suggest that, but the rock still has contact with the sand, and that is enough to kick-start the nitrifying bacterial colonies. LR has so many advantages, we should start an info-topic just on that.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2705289
Yes, many suggest that, but the rock still has contact with the sand, and that is enough to kick-start the nitrifying bacterial colonies. LR has so many advantages, we should start an info-topic just on that.
Beth are you in agreement with my previous post

 

[beth]

Also, another reason for not placing rock directly on top of sand, live sand, is because the rock will suffocate the "live" sand that it is resting on, and, mainly, that area of the sand bed could become a dead spot because of the suffocation.
If the sandbed is deep, such as in a dsb system, then you may not want to spend money on LR just to bury a good portion of it into the sand bed....thus you have base rock. Otherwise, placing LR on the bottom of the glass, and then surrounding it with the substrate is the way to go.

 

[srfisher17]

Just a final comment on the original post. I still think that if nitrite reads very high and fish are fine, it is a bad test kit. My comments apply to FOWLR, or fish only tanks--not reefs. This is an interesting thread, but a discussion on what is best to eliminate ammonia/nitrite seems , at least IMO, just a matter of personal preference. Most hobbiests want our tanks to be as natural as possible. But, we use artificial light, heat, skimming, foods, supplements, water circulation , wave makers, etc., etc.,. As soon as we move fish from the ocean to our living room; we have created an artificial environment. I see no problem in using artificial media to eliminate ammonia and nitrite. IMO & IME; LR, LS, power filters, canisters, bio-wheels, ceramic or splintered glass rings, bio-balls, wet/dry, and almost all media presently in use can do an excellent job eliminating ammonia and nitrite. Its only a matter of different maintenance techniques. I think ammonia/ nitrite is VERY, VERY easy to control and, once a tank has thoroughly cycled, only a serious lapse in maintenance can cause a new ammonia/nitrite problem. I think the thread starter will be just fine with 2 Emperor 400 filters and his PHs on a 90 gal; if proper maintenance is done. Nitrate is another thing; but regular water changes will solve that in a fish-only tank. IMO, one of the most common misconceptions on this forum is that nitrates (say, 60ppm) will hurt fish; they won't; at least not IME and according to anything I've ever read. Natural substrate is a great buffer and looks great; but I think other means of eliminating ammonia/nitrite work just as well. If the only function of the sand is to provide a growing surface for bacteria, science can certainly develop substances that have a higher surface area to volume ratio. I'm sure not advocating not using LR or sand circulating methods; I think that is the best way to solve several issues, like nitrate. I just don't think they are the ONLY way to solve the ammonia/nitrite issue. Once I have a tank established; I never even test for ammonia/ nitrite and I doubt I'm the only one who doesn't. My fish would let me know if there was a problem.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2705361
Just a final comment on the original post. I still think that if nitrite reads very high and fish are fine, it is a bad test kit. My comments apply to FOWLR, or fish only tanks--not reefs. This is an interesting thread, but a discussion on what is best to eliminate ammonia/nitrite seems , at least IMO, just a matter of personal preference. Most hobbiests want our tanks to be as natural as possible. But, we use artificial light, heat, skimming, foods, supplements, water circulation , wave makers, etc., etc.,. As soon as we move fish from the ocean to our living room; we have created an artificial environment. I see no problem in using artificial media to eliminate ammonia and nitrite. IMO & IME; LR, LS, power filters, canisters, bio-wheels, ceramic or splintered glass rings, bio-balls, wet/dry, and almost all media presently in use can do an excellent job eliminating ammonia and nitrite. Its only a matter of different maintenance techniques. I think ammonia/ nitrite is VERY, VERY easy to control and, once a tank has thoroughly cycled, only a serious lapse in maintenance can cause a new ammonia/nitrite problem. I think the thread starter will be just fine with 2 Emperor 400 filters and his PHs on a 90 gal; if proper maintenance is done. Nitrate is another thing; but regular water changes will solve that in a fish-only tank. IMO, one of the most common misconceptions on this forum is that nitrates (say, 60ppm) will hurt fish; they won't; at least not IME and according to anything I've ever read. Natural substrate is a great buffer and looks great; but I think other means of eliminating ammonia/nitrite work just as well. If the only function of the sand is to provide a growing surface for bacteria, science can certainly develop substances that have a higher surface area to volume ratio. I'm sure not advocating not using LR or sand circulating methods; I think that is the best way to solve several issues, like nitrate. I just don't think they are the ONLY way to solve the ammonia/nitrite issue. Once I have a tank established; I never even test for ammonia/ nitrite and I doubt I'm the only one who doesn't. My fish would let me know if there was a problem.

 

[tr1gger]

Since this post started my nitrIte has dropped wayyy down to .3 PPM. Thats over 4.7 PPM down from the original post. Prime and second new emporer 400 with all new filter changes and about a 15% water change every week for 3 weeks in a row did the trick. I will continue to check peramiters every day and keep up with the post will its down to 0..

 

[florida joe]