Obama for President = Second Coming?

jmick

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2813115
Wow this thread has seen a lot of use since I've last been online.
sickboy - I'm way ahead of you... I'm putting together disproven theories about evolution as we speak and am planning on starting an entirely different thread titled "Evolution : Disproven Theories" in the next couple of days. I'm including a full paper trail and referencing reputable websites. It's going to be a good one and I've been meaning to do it. I'll add the link into this thread when I post it.
That's what makes evolution a theory, you can use scientific methods to prove or disprove it. With creationism, which is an option you can not do this and this makes it completely subject to ones own faith...which is why, it should not be taught in public schools.
I'll ask you this Nick, if god is perfect and all powerful/all knowing then wouldn't all of its creations be perfect and in need of no change or adaptation? If this is the case then please explain microevolution?
I have no problem with the concept that god may have started the ball rolling and life as we know it slowly evolved. I think it's kind of cool to think that if there is a god it is constantly creating and moving on to new things and letting life take its course as opposed to some master plan.
 
jmick

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by jennythebugg
http:///forum/post/2813125
where does it say dragon = satan in the bible?
Revelation 12:9
Satan has always been identified with the serpent and the dragon. I thought you father was a minister or preacher?
 
reefreak29

reefreak29

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2812996
Reef, I would have thought you'd know that dragons a representation of Satan in the bible and to try and say they are dinosaurs to prove your point is funny.
the dragon represents more then just the devil in the bible,apperently you didnt read the whole thing
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2813127
That's what makes evolution a theory, you can use scientific methods to prove or disprove it. With creationism, which is an option you can not do this and this makes it completely subject to ones own faith...which is why, it should not be taught in public schools.
I'll ask you this Nick, if god is perfect and all powerful/all knowing then wouldn't all of its creations be perfect and in need of no change or adaptation? If this is the case then please explain microevolution?
I have no problem with the concept that god may have started the ball rolling and life as we know it slowly evolved. I think it's kind of cool to think that if there is a god it is constantly creating and moving on to new things and letting life take its course as opposed to some master plan.
Actually, I agree with you in many ways. I want to clarify and say that the thread I intend to start is to simply disprove some of the theories encompassing evolution... I don't intend to take a stand for creationsim and "Intelligent Design" (ID).
I also agree that the theory of ID has easily become an answer for a lot unanswered questions... at the same time, it makes some sense (although unscientific) to point to the unexplained by saying it was created. Is it a scientific "cop out"? I don't think educated people are looking for an easy way out... I think they're looking for the truth.
I mean, if you had a metal detector and scanned a beach, finding a rolex watch, you wouldn't assume that the tides and millions of years magically formed the rolex watch... obviously someone made it. In the same way, scientists look at the unexplained and think to themselves "how could this have been a random formation?" Again, it's not a scientific stand so much, but more a "what the heck??? There's no way evolution can explain this."
Should ID be taught in public schools? I dunno. I would prefer my children learn the facts first and form their own opinions instead of being told that evolution is right. I can understand though that teaching ID can easily make people wonder about a higher power, which kind of defeats the purpose of separation between church and state. Thank God I'm not in charge of any curriculum. I wouldn't know where to start.
Also, in order to answer your question about what a perfect God would do, we'd have to fully understand what being a perfect God is like. We're taking our own imperfect human characteristics and understandings, superimposing them onto a perfect deity. Of course, if I as a perfect being were actually perfect, heck yeah I'd tweak the earth until it was void of imperfection, but that's just me... in my little puny pea-brain in comparison to an all-knowing, all-being, all-powerful God.
Maybe perfection is overrated to a perfect deity. From a human's perspective, maybe being perfect is the reason for creating an imperfect earth... maybe imperfect beings see the perfection and want to be more like that perfection... which brings glory to that perfect being... giving everyone a purpose. I'm just blowing all this out of my rear though. There's got to be some heresy in this last paragraph haha.
As for God getting the ball rolling and then millions of years of evolution form the earth, I encourage you to do some research on the Cambrian Explosion. Suffice it to say that the Cambrian Explosion single handedly blows the evolutionary "tree of life" out of the water. IF evolution were true, it laid dormant for millions of years where pretty much nothing evolved, and then evolution got on steroids and went nuts evolving every organism over an extremely short span of 5-30m years (called the Cambrian Explosion - proven fact)... then after that, evolution pretty much didn't do anything ever again. Kind of weird that evolution would be so decisive in it's choice of time. Doesn't seem very consistent to me.
I'm not sure how I feel about microevolution either. Actually, I know very little about it, but I think the theory is something about minor changes in organisms based upon their surroundings. But even if I moved to an island and spent most of my time in the water swimming, teaching my kids and grandkids the same way of life, I don't think my great great grandson will have a larger lung capacity than me, just because my genealogy included a lot of swimming. I don't know if there's any proof of that being true.
 
jmick

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefreak29
http:///forum/post/2813184
the dragon represents more then just the devil in the bible,apperently you didnt read the whole thing
Other then Satan and or evil/oppressive things (Rome) what else does the serpent/dragon represent in the bible?
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2812472
First of all, I am not fearful. Lets just lay down that as a foundation here. Secondly, I am on no cloud... I used to be but it wasn't until I fell from the faith and became just like you that I realized the truth. Third, I wouldn't be stupid enough to put myself in front of a train. Anyone who does probably deserves not to be saved by God.
Explain to me why there is no God. And please, spare me from all the IF THEN statements. IF God is omnipotent... etc. You're trying to wrap your head around stuff you will never comprehend when you do that.
Do you believe in evolution? I'd be surprised if you did, the seemingly educated person you are. There are vast amounts of evidence (growing daily) proving evolution to be wrong. Many scientists still cling to evolution as their answer because they're too scared to admit that what they so firmly root themselves in is wrong. Yes. Evolution as we know it is wrong. I can give you a plethora of facts about why it's wrong... and a list of names of reputable and influential scientists who have the guts to admit it.
So c'mon, JR. Show me some proof that there is no God... or stay off this thread.

Didn't we just do this one? I like your reverse logic to try and prove there is this magical entity you called God, Messiah, The One, His Holiest, or whatever the name someone gives it. Show me proof there IS a God, or stay off the thread. Physical proof. Viable validation this god exists. You use logic that something had to create this world. I say it's the Big Bang Theory. Prove me wrong. Can't do it without this Big Guy of yours showing up.
How is it the Second Coming when the first one never happened? The supposed Savior you say was here in the first place wasn't even god himself. It was his supposed son. Your entire validation there is a god is based on one book, the Bible. Without it, you would have no 'proof' he ever existed. You validate his existence by spouting verses out of The Book, a book written some 2,000 years ago by a bunch of philosophers. Where did they get their information to write this book? Were they physically there to see all these 'miracles' they describe happen? Where did they get all the names of these people they describe in Genesis? Cain begat Able who begat somebody who begat somebody else.... Show me physical proof these guys existed. If Adam and Eve were the first people on this Earth, explain the Neanderthals. We have physical proof they existed. Did your god intentionally make people intelligent and do all these things they discuss in the Bible, then dumb them down at a later date? Show me the actual Ten Commandments. Show me this Ark that was used for this 40 day flood that destroyed all living creatures except the ones on this VERY LARGE boat. Did they have a couple of these dinosaurs you say are in The Book on this boat? That's the problem with your logic. You have no proof for your theories.
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2813226
Other then Satan and or evil/oppressive things (Rome) what else does the serpent/dragon represent in the bible?
The serpent is commonly considered to be satan. However, there are cases (like the Leviathan in Job 41) that are clearly not considered by the author to be the devil.
Personally, I know we have proof that dinosaurs existed at some point... we've got plenty of fossils to prove it... how they became extinct is something I'm waiting for the pro's to figure out... I do remember watching something on PBS that talked about a line of solid ash in the substrate of many canyons proving that a continental-wide fire or meteor hit happened sometime in the past. Don't quote me on that though. I think dinosaurs are pretty sweet though - I loved all three of the Jurassic Park movies, although I was a little disappointed with the third one.
I think dinosaurs in their time were very prevalent... meaning if writers in biblical times were coexisting with dinosaurs, we'd know it because the writings would be littered with it... like "I opened the door to my hut and a raptor ate one of my 45 wives today" or "Those evil t-rex's keep eating all my sheep and oxen!" j/k
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2813242
Didn't we just do this one? I like your reverse logic to try and prove there is this magical entity you called God, Messiah, The One, His Holiest, or whatever the name someone gives it. Show me proof there IS a God, or stay off the thread. Physical proof. Viable validation this god exists. You use logic that something had to create this world. I say it's the Big Bang Theory. Prove me wrong. Can't do it without this Big Guy of yours showing up.
Yes, we did just do this one, and you're asking questions which I've already answered.
Let me preface all this by saying that I can't send you a picture of outer space with a huge bearded guy giving you a thumbs up and tell you that's God. In fact, there isn't enough evidence either way to effectively prove whether there is a God or not... and I think there's a certain beauty in that. Let me explain... if God spoke in a thunderous voice from the heavens and spent all his time striking people down or creating island oasis's in the middle of the desert, then we'd have the facts. God Exists. No question about it, it's Him. The Holy of Holies. BUT if it WERE that way, we wouldn't have faith. Faith is being certain of what we do not see... a belief in something we cannot fully prove. Faith is one of the most important core foundations in any religion... but that discussion is easily an 8-page thread right there. We can start one if you want.
I can't sit here and make a believer out of you with solid facts, just like you can't sit there and prove to me that there ISN'T a God by giving me solid facts. Unless you had a God-Detection-Radar-Gun, you have no way of knowing if there is a God or not. Personally, I was challenging rotarymagic because he just likes to push my buttons, but what I ultimately want to see from him is a stalemate. He can't prove there is NO God, and I can't prove (based upon no God-Radar) that there IS a God. All I CAN do is tell you why I personally think there IS a God. I encourage you to look at these puzzle pieces I've taken the time to put together for you, and make your own assumptions. If you have any questions, I have no problem attempting to answer them, but let me say that I don't have all the answers... I'm just telling you what I DO know.
SO - let me provide links to posts I've made in the past. I'll include my train of thought.
If you believe what 99% of the history books tell you, you should believe that Jesus died and rose again 900x more. I'm not just quoting the bible here, but hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of scrolls that describe the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus....
Comparitive Evidence to History and of Jesus' Death and Resurrection:
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...0&postcount=17
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...5&postcount=75
Jesus performed many miracles which are not of this world. Clearly he was calling upon some kind of higher power to help the people he was saving from death or harm. I can say that Jesus performed many miracles that are still unheard of on this planet. You may think "well what about Benny Hinn?" I think Benny Hinn is a circus act, and has been proven to be a money launderer. That stuff is a joke. However, there are still people who can miraculously heal others... I can reference a church in Redding, CA that have miraculous healings daily. They even have a school where you can learn to develop the faith needed to heal others. Again, it's something you'll have to see or research for yourself. Just putting it out there for you.
Some debate that we can't believe in the scrolls about Jesus' resurrection because they were written 20-50 years after this actually occurred. Some use Caesar as a comparison. Read the threads below to get a better idea about this.
Explanation of the Accuracy of Scriptures we have:
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...9&postcount=44
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...2&postcount=84
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...3&postcount=89
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...3&postcount=82
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...7&postcount=93
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...5&postcount=96
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...1&postcount=97
If God didn't exist, then evolution must have been the flagship in forming the earth, but here are some postings I've made which show certain aspects of evolution's theory to be dis-proven.
Deeper Explanation of the Cambrian Explosion:
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...&postcount=135
My Take on ID and Evolution:
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...&postcount=143
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...8&postcount=18
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2813242
How is it the Second Coming when the first one never happened? The supposed Savior you say was here in the first place wasn't even god himself. It was his supposed son. Your entire validation there is a god is based on one book, the Bible. Without it, you would have no 'proof' he ever existed. You validate his existence by spouting verses out of The Book, a book written some 2,000 years ago by a bunch of philosophers. Where did they get their information to write this book? Were they physically there to see all these 'miracles' they describe happen? Where did they get all the names of these people they describe in Genesis? Cain begat Able who begat somebody who begat somebody else.... Show me physical proof these guys existed. If Adam and Eve were the first people on this Earth, explain the Neanderthals. We have physical proof they existed. Did your god intentionally make people intelligent and do all these things they discuss in the Bible, then dumb them down at a later date? Show me the actual Ten Commandments. Show me this Ark that was used for this 40 day flood that destroyed all living creatures except the ones on this VERY LARGE boat. Did they have a couple of these dinosaurs you say are in The Book on this boat? That's the problem with your logic. You have no proof for your theories.
Well, people call it "The second coming" because the first coming was considered Jesus' existence on this earth.
I don't base my faith on the bible alone. I've proven that earlier in this posting for you.
Most of those who wrote the scrolls were physically there, yes.
Not sure how people in the biblical times named their sons/daugthers... don't really care. lol... I also don't really care what "begat" means either. You can get so deep into the less-foundational parts of the bible stories, but I like sticking to the meat and potatoes of it all.
Neanderthals is also something I plan to address in my evolution thread I plan to start. A lot of japanese fabrications were purchased on the black market to prove they existed, and many of them have since been proven to be fake fossils. I also plan to address proof about "Lucy." Did you know that less than 2% of Lucy's bones are proven to be human or ape? The rest of it is a hodge-podge of different species.
So now let me challenge you. I've given you MY take on all this, and hopefully have answered most of your questions. Please provide proof to me that evolution has been proven true. I want to see YOUR facts.
 
sickboy

sickboy

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefreak29
http:///forum/post/2812949
There are a number of places where it appears that dinosaurs or other similar creatures are mentioned in the scriptures. Remember that the Bible was translated into English long before the word "dinosaur" was coined. However, the word "dragon" appears 21 times in the Old Testament alone. "You shall tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shall you trample under feet" (Psalm 91:13). From the context it is clearly speaking about a real creature that it would be impressive and intimidating to step on! Jeremiah 51:34 tells, "he has swallowed me up like a dragon..." which brings to mind the way many carnivorous reptiles swallow their prey whole. Both dragons of the sea (Psalm 74:13) and field (Isaiah 43:20) are mentioned. Indeed, Genesis 1:21 can best be translated: "And God created great sea monsters..." One such sea monster became sufficiently well-known to the ancients to be given the special name "Rahab" (Isaiah 51:9). The prophet Ezekiel likens Pharaoh to a sea monster that invaded the Nile river and stirred up the mud (32:2). The Hebrew word, "Tannin," is from the root meaning "to extend." The language conjures up an image of a long-necked plesiosaur-like creature paddling up the river and stirring up mud from the Nile delta with its flippers. Just such a creature is depicted by the ancient Egyptians who may have netted one just as Ezekiel describes in verse 3. See the plesiosaur-like hieroglyphic (to the left) currently displayed in the London Museum.
.
So now you are telling me that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time?? You haven't seen the carbon dating done on bones then huh?
And I guess then King Arthur could have really slain dragons....
 
rotarymagic

rotarymagic

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2812472
First of all, I am not fearful. Lets just lay down that as a foundation here. Secondly, I am on no cloud... I used to be but it wasn't until I fell from the faith and became just like you that I realized the truth. Third, I wouldn't be stupid enough to put myself in front of a train. Anyone who does probably deserves not to be saved by God.
Explain to me why there is no God. And please, spare me from all the IF THEN statements. IF God is omnipotent... etc. You're trying to wrap your head around stuff you will never comprehend when you do that.
Do you believe in evolution? I'd be surprised if you did, the seemingly educated person you are. There are vast amounts of evidence (growing daily) proving evolution to be wrong. Many scientists still cling to evolution as their answer because they're too scared to admit that what they so firmly root themselves in is wrong. Yes. Evolution as we know it is wrong. I can give you a plethora of facts about why it's wrong... and a list of names of reputable and influential scientists who have the guts to admit it.
So c'mon, JR. Show me some proof that there is no God... or stay off this thread.
Evolution as I know it is not wrong.. come on bro, Darwinian evolution is from the 1800s... ROFL, we've "evolved" our definition since then. Prove to me there is a God, remember there's always the train track test... I'll be happen to fly out there and witness it. I mean if you died alone, it'd be in vain right? Creationists cling to that crap because they're afraid that some "no-thing" will strike them down for following "the goat not the sheep" like you guys call it when one doesn't follow the flock and is automatically sided with evil i.e. the goat and its relevance to satanism. Once again, show me proof there is God.
Do you follow Sahotra Sarkar? He consistently makes ID creationists cower in their caves in any debate he has with them. Read "Doubting Darwin?" You'll love that because it addresses how ID creationists constantly resort to talking about a guy from the 1800s with a very minimal understanding of a concept he proposed, it has "EVOLVED" greatly since them. Sahotra Sarkar made Paul Nelson look like a complete idiot in front of a Scientific Audience in April 2007. You know why Paul is afraid to debate ID? Because its a retarded concept that they quickly figure out once they get stomped that they are without any proof or evidence for their theory and that evolution is a scientifically plausible theory. Even the Vatican thinks ID shouldn't be taught as when science and religion come together, religion quickly loses due to its backwards, narrow nature.
I wonder if I could start a religion based on Asop's Fables just as the Bible has had successes in starting a huge following over a fictional work surrounding how a layman needs to lead their life if unable to mind themselves.
 
jmick

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/2813561
So now you are telling me that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time?? You haven't seen the carbon dating done on bones then huh?
And I guess then King Arthur could have really slain dragons....
Also, there is also no way in the world we could have competed with dinosaurs for resources and we'd easy prey for the vast majority of meat eating dinos. Any of you seen some of the beasts that lived in the oceans, lakes and swamps...good luck trying to fish

Also, do Evangelical Christians have to believe in creationism? If you don't is your soul destined for hell or is the threat made by nuts like Kirk Cameron...
 
rotarymagic

rotarymagic

Active Member

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2813593
Also, there is also no way in the world we could have competed with dinosaurs for resources and we'd easy prey for the vast majority of meat eating dinos. Any of you seen some of the beasts that lived in the oceans, lakes and swamps...good luck trying to fish

Also, do Evangelical Christians have to believe in creationism? If you don't is your soul destined for hell or is the threat made by nuts like Kirk Cameron...
AHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh man...
 
sickboy

sickboy

Active Member
Well, if evolution doesn't exist then here are a couple of things to explain:
Chimps and humans having 99% similar DNA (Its actually 99.something, but I can't remember)
How viruses, such as the flu, are not killed yet and continue to get stronger.
How identical creatures genetically can have different physical attributes, see galopogos islands.
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rotarymagic
http:///forum/post/2813569
Evolution as I know it is not wrong.. come on bro, Darwinian evolution is from the 1800s... ROFL, we've "evolved" our definition since then. Prove to me there is a God, remember there's always the train track test... I'll be happen to fly out there and witness it. I mean if you died alone, it'd be in vain right? Creationists cling to that crap because they're afraid that some "no-thing" will strike them down for following "the goat not the sheep" like you guys call it when one doesn't follow the flock and is automatically sided with evil i.e. the goat and its relevance to satanism. Once again, show me proof there is God.
Do you follow Sahotra Sarkar? He consistently makes ID creationists cower in their caves in any debate he has with them. Read "Doubting Darwin?" You'll love that because it addresses how ID creationists constantly resort to talking about a guy from the 1800s with a very minimal understanding of a concept he proposed, it has "EVOLVED" greatly since them. Sahotra Sarkar made Paul Nelson look like a complete idiot in front of a Scientific Audience in April 2007. You know why Paul is afraid to debate ID? Because its a retarded concept that they quickly figure out once they get stomped that they are without any proof or evidence for their theory and that evolution is a scientifically plausible theory. Even the Vatican thinks ID shouldn't be taught as when science and religion come together, religion quickly loses due to its backwards, narrow nature.
I wonder if I could start a religion based on Asop's Fables just as the Bible has had successes in starting a huge following over a fictional work surrounding how a layman needs to lead their life if unable to mind themselves.
Rotary, if you can't show me some proof, then don't respond. You're not showing me ANY proof behind what you're saying, except that Sarkar pwned this other guy I've never heard of.
You're not showing me what was said and you're not showing me any proof behind the statements you're making. PLEASE give me SOMETHING to put behind what you're saying because from my side of the fence, it looks like you're the one with smoke and mirrors.
P.S. Don't you feel like an idiot for saying "no-thing"? That just sounds so stupid to read.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2813593
Also, there is also no way in the world we could have competed with dinosaurs for resources and we'd easy prey for the vast majority of meat eating dinos. Any of you seen some of the beasts that lived in the oceans, lakes and swamps...good luck trying to fish

Also, do Evangelical Christians have to believe in creationism? If you don't is your soul destined for hell or is the threat made by nuts like Kirk Cameron...
YearOfTheNick IS Kirk Cameron.

Arguing with the ultra religious is an effort in futility. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove nothing. Again, fables written by historians. My take on Jesus was he was like a current day 'fire and brimstone' preacher you'd see in those circus tents around the country. He apparently knew magic and slight of hand to convince his victims he was real. Probably didn't take much back then. Shoot, the 'water to wine' trick is done in Vegas all the time.

And you want to dispel that Neanderthals and dinosaurs didn't exist? Come on', you can't be that much of a fanatic. There's PHYSICAL proof, unlike your Second Coming visions. Sounds like all we need to do is disprove The Bible is authentic. That'll burst the bubble of every religious fanatic. So all I have to do is take away your faith, and you have nothing else to live for? You need to get out more...
 
yearofthenick

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2813593
Also, there is also no way in the world we could have competed with dinosaurs for resources and we'd easy prey for the vast majority of meat eating dinos. Any of you seen some of the beasts that lived in the oceans, lakes and swamps...good luck trying to fish

Also, do Evangelical Christians have to believe in creationism? If you don't is your soul destined for hell or is the threat made by nuts like Kirk Cameron...
I don't think you have to believe in creationism or ID to be a christian. I mean, from that aspect, if you believe that God created the earth then you're good. Whether you believe evolution took the ball from there or not doesn't really matter.
I think that Kirk Cameron films do more damage than good. What a joke.
 
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