Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2970875
So the gun manufacturers that designed and built the Uzi and TEC-9 did it for the sole purpose of being used for target practice?
Give me a break.
I have made no such statement. Please retract your erroneous comment.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2970870
Bionic, Letters of Marque were simply a way for the Founding Fathers to allow the private citizens to be used as a Navy in times of War. Basically they were hiring "pirates", aka Privateers.
The Constitution would look a lot different if it were written today; Not because the ideas are outdated, but because we don't have men willing to take the stand the Founding Fathers were willing to take serving the Nation today.
The Constitution very clearly shows the Founding Fathers did not believe in restricting the general public from owning weapons. It's been pointed out already; a 54 gun Schooner is quite a bit more firepower than a semi-auto M4. If the founding fathers promoted the ideas of private warships, why would they restrict firearms??

VERY CLEARLY SHOWS? The 2nd Amendment has been one of the most contested and widely argued Amendments of the Constitution. Politicians and activists have argued for decades over the interpretations of this Amendment. Depending on how you apply the punctuation and grammer to the statement, you get two or three totally different meanings of what the Founding Fathers were trying to convey.
I know you don't hold any credance to Wiki references, but just look at and READ the history of how the 2nd Amendment has been interpreted based on grammer content and punctuation. You'll see that gun ownership isn't as clear as you make it out to be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...s_Constitution
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2970878
I believe you make a bad assumption here. Your sentence appears to imply that if the perpetrators of the 1-2% crime with assult weapons could not legally acquire such weapons then they would not have comitted a gun crime.
I don't believe that to be true.

Hey, I was going off the crazy mindset that banning these guns would drop the gun crime rate.....even if it did, it is a 1-2% drop. I agree with you on this.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
WAIT A MINUTE!!!!
Who's arguement is it that this assault ban would help stop the school shootings involving such guns. I believe someone mentioned columbine. Because it was legal to own an assault weapon and the kids got a hold of it or some such lame argument.
The assault weapons ban was in place in 1994-2004. The columbine shooting and other school shootings STILL took place while the ban was in effect...................
Guys you need to come with a VALID reason why to ban something. Every excuse you guys have given has been proven wrong.
Gun crime will go down....nope went up in Britain and other countries.
School shooting will not happen .....ummm Columbine?
The founding foathers didn't imagine the firepower of today......an Uzi does not even equal the firepower of a ship with 65-120 cannons held in private ownership. Not to mention the gatling gun that was privately owned later and the cannons during colonial times.
Next reason?
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
IF you forget or somehow manipulate WHO THE FOUNDING FATHERS WERE. Then there may be some confusion. HOWEVER. When you realise that our founding fathers were gun tottin, powder packin' varmit slayin', immigrants who left one country because their guns were being taken away from them. And who would kill to defend their guns. And they did. It then becomes quite obvious none of them would want to see this ban passed.
In fact I believe they would drool over the idea of having an AW.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2970883
I have made no such statement. Please retract your erroneous comment.
What erroneous comment? I stated that the Uzi and TEC-9's sole purpose in the hands of a normal citizen was for the use in criminal activity. My original post:
Originally Posted by bionicarm
However, you can't tell me there's a reasonable use for an Uzi or TEC-9 for the average citizen
Your reply to my comment:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
Target shooting is a popular, and reasonable, activity.
So exactly what were you implying? Sounded to me you're justifying the purchase of Uzi's and TEC-9's based on their sole use for target practice. If you feel I made an 'erroneous comment' because I initially left out the phrase 'criminal activity' in my first statement, so be it. But again, you honestly believe the gun manufacturers that designed and built the Uzi and TEC-9 did it for the sole purpose of being used for target practice?
 

turningtim

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2970882
While we are stating facts; There are well documented accounts of Jews surviving the holocaust by taking up arms and fighting back... More guns obviously would have equaled more survivors.
Take that to the next level... Would the German army have been so brazen as to allow relatively few soldiers to round up thousands of Jews and send them to death camps if the villages they were raiding were armed? Of course not.
Look at the dates of the "German gun control act of 1938" Signed into law a single day after Kristallnacht. So by law they were still allowed to have long arms and ammo. So tell me again how a very few exceptions would have changed the outcome in any manner what so ever?
Also this was a complete ban of firearms. Not a type of firearm.
AND unlike Nazi Germany YOU HAVE RECOURSE!
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke.
Is this really what Pres Obama is saying? Can anyone seriously conceive of this happening in this country?
Again the comparison holds no water......
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2970862
Ah followed by the conservative "What about Nazi Germany".....
This coming from someone who actually has the nerve to suggest that "if" the Jews in Germany had the use of firearms that the slaughter that took place would have somehow been different.
Here a little fact for you. 15-20 MILLION German soldiers vs. less than 250,000 Jews in 1939. Yup they had a chance.
1939 era where my exact words.It would have been different,And at least they would have had a fighting chance instead of none at all.
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2970862
My friend when the blood of those 6 MILLION humans that where put to slaughter runs through your child's veins you kinda take offense to this comparison. I've have heard this WWII argument far to many times and it holds no water.
If your offended that isnt because of what i said isnt true.Im not going to try and make crap smell like a rose for you so your not offend
Originally Posted by TurningTim

http:///forum/post/2970862
Besides all this the argument that we will somehow lose all of our rights b/c a ban on a single materiel device is a joke by any standard. Believe this or not YOU have recourse! File a injunction in Federal Court. Please take your valid Constitutional arguments to court.
It has been to court and 2nd amendment keeps winning.
Originally Posted by TurningTim

http:///forum/post/2970862
What I really don't like is when anyone uses this living and breathing document as a big stick to beat the opposition about the head and face. Also the use of the Constitution as a grocery store is absurd at best. To pick and choose.... really?
Living ,Breathing Document is a direct quote from Obama.........It disagree it is not a document that changes with time or Democratic whims so it suits them better.
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2970862
Some pretty educated and smart people from both sides of the isle have said that some of the most egregious assaults on the constitution have happened in the last 8 years. But now all the sudden the new administration is presenting a ban on a "thing" and you're all up in arms about how its unconstitutional.
And we're talking about citizens being allowed to have battleships?

Theory and arguments that are well thought out and well spoken does give them anymore validity in the eyes of the LAW!
Thats right and the second amendment isnt subject to change because you dont like it.Smart people keep upholding it just the way it is.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2970906
WAIT A MINUTE!!!!
Who's arguement is it that this assault ban would help stop the school shootings involving such guns. I believe someone mentioned columbine. Because it was legal to own an assault weapon and the kids got a hold of it or some such lame argument.
The assault weapons ban was in place in 1994-2004. The columbine shooting and other school shootings STILL took place while the ban was in effect...................
Guys you need to come with a VALID reason why to ban something. Every excuse you guys have given has been proven wrong.
Gun crime will go down....nope went up in Britain and other countries.
School shooting will not happen .....ummm Columbine?
The founding foathers didn't imagine the firepower of today......an Uzi does not even equal the firepower of a ship with 65-120 cannons held in private ownership. Not to mention the gatling gun that was privately owned later and the cannons during colonial times.
Next reason?
Uh, you're not going to be able to stick a cannon in your back pocket. I doubt the Founding Founders would've ever imagined you could build a weapon that could shoot 50 rounds in 5 seconds. They grew up with black powder muskets that took severl minutes just to make one shot. Gatling gun? That was in the 1800's. You could consider that as being the Father of the Assault Weapons.
Read my statement above. The purpose of the assault weapons ban is to deter and make it harder for those weapons to be purchased for criminal activity. You'll NEVER be able to completely get rid of these types of weapons. There's too many of them available in the current open market. If someone wants an AR-15, they'll get one. They'll just have to pay twice as much for it. You want one of these types of guns? Create a special permit or license in order to buy one. One of the conditions of purchase, is you shoot several rounds that can be photographed and stored in a national database. If your rifle is ever used for criminal activity -- your fault, their fault, nobody's fault, you are prosecuted for it, no exceptions.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2970875
So the gun manufacturers that designed and built the Uzi and TEC-9 did it for the sole purpose of being used for target practice?
Give me a break. Those guns were built to be used strictly for military purposes, plain and simple. They weren't designed for some Joe NRA Fanatic to go plunking tin cans out in their corn fields.
If i want a Tech 9 or a Uzi or a Mac-10 I can,I dont have to tell anyone why i want or have one.Its my right to own one if i so choose without having to explain myself to anyone.
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Why shouldn't I be able to own a battleship???Tell me exactly why. Because I might do something wrong with it? Because it might be used erroneously. What if it were used to defend you from some wrong that might happen.
To consider the constitution as a living and breathing document is a dangerous thing. This means it adapts with time. This is the same reason why I no longer attend church or consider myself a christian. Because so many want christianity to "change with the times". This means changing the interpretation and supposedly the word of god. Now homosexuality is supposed to be accepted in the church, constantly you hear catholics pleading for the pope to condone birth control. You don't see so many large catholic families. It's like, we don't think this is right these days, so lets re-interpret that. I mean for 200 years now, the interpretation of the 2nd has been that we have the right to bear arms...any arms....so why all of the sudden should that change? Because we think we have an extremely dangerous weapon all of a sudden? It wasn't too long ago that many many people ran around with pistols on their hips, rifles in their saddles, derringers in their garters, gatling guns on their stage coaches. We all seemed to agree any kind of gun was OK then?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2970923
Uh, you're not going to be able to stick a cannon in your back pocket. I doubt the Founding Founders would've ever imagined you could build a weapon that could shoot 50 rounds in 5 seconds. They grew up with black powder muskets that took severl minutes just to make one shot. Gatling gun? That was in the 1800's. You could consider that as being the Father of the Assault Weapons.
Read my statement above. The purpose of the assault weapons ban is to deter and make it harder for those weapons to be purchased for criminal activity. You'll NEVER be able to completely get rid of these types of weapons. There's too many of them available in the current open market. If someone wants an AR-15, they'll get one. They'll just have to pay twice as much for it. You want one of these types of guns? Create a special permit or license in order to buy one. One of the conditions of purchase, is you shoot several rounds that can be photographed and stored in a national database. If your rifle is ever used for criminal activity -- your fault, their fault, nobody's fault, you are prosecuted for it, no exceptions.
You obviously aren't paying attention.
First off, you can't stick an assault rifle in your back pocket either.
2. A cannon had the capacity to kill how many people in one shot? Equivalent to one magazine of any assault rifle.
3. You keep saying it will reduce crime. Yet the criminal element does not purchase guns legally, and they don't go to a gun show to do it either. It is done on the black market or in alleyways. assault weapons account for 2% at the max of gun crimes in this nation. So you are going to cut a market 20% to MAYBE give your self a 2% drop in gun crimes? wait a minute, the criminals will still have and purchase assault rifles however. This doesn't say turn in the guns it prevents the sale of them. Therefore the assault guns in the criminal market will still be available. The criminals in possession of them will still be there. and the kid that wants to shoot up a school with a gun will just grab a different gun or get one off the street.
During the assault rifle ban, on three separate occasion I had the opportunity to still purchase an assault rifle off the street, (I used to be less than stellar citizen when I was younger) Had I wanted the gun for criminal purposes I could have still got it.
Like I said, what is the concrete valid reason for banning the gun.
Would you be ok with the Corvette or Viper automobile getting banned because 1-2% of high speed crashes involve these vehicles when mixed with alcohol.
Drunk Driving kills more people each year that guns do....yet I don't hear a call for prohibition back. Alcohol has one purpose now days, to get drunk.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2970910
What erroneous comment? I stated that the Uzi and TEC-9's sole purpose in the hands of a normal citizen was for the use in criminal activity. My original post:
Originally Posted by bionicarm
However, you can't tell me there's a reasonable use for an Uzi or TEC-9 for the average citizen
Your reply to my comment:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
Target shooting is a popular, and reasonable, activity.
So exactly what were you implying? Sounded to me you're justifying the purchase of Uzi's and TEC-9's based on their sole use for target practice. If you feel I made an 'erroneous comment' because I initially left out the phrase 'criminal activity' in my first statement, so be it. But again, you honestly believe the gun manufacturers that designed and built the Uzi and TEC-9 did it for the sole purpose of being used for target practice?
I gave you a reasonable use "for an Uzi or TEC-9 for the average citizen". I didn't indicate a sole purpose for anything, only a reasonable purpose, as you asked.
 

jp30338

Member
Originally Posted by fishhunter
http:///forum/post/2970682
UMMM There is no such thing is an assualt weapon
FIREARMS ARE NOT WEAPONS!!!!
I AM THE WEAPON!!!
A gun only makes it easyer; so there for its a tool.
If I wanted to go on a massive killing spree and there was no such thing a firearm do you think i would not find something alse to do it?
Hell I see people hunting with everything under the sun from AK47s to M16s they have gotten that bullsh!t term assualt weapon because the look scairy...
You sound like quite the edumacated type! Firearms are not weapons.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by jp30338
http:///forum/post/2970968
You sound like quite the edumacated type! Firearms are not weapons.

Actually he does considering your post adds nothing of value to the discussion except to insult. Atleast his brings forth a point. You on the other hand can not present a valid point so you result to insults.....Yeah, your position is solid.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2970924
If i want a Tech 9 or a Uzi or a Mac-10 I can,I dont have to tell anyone why i want or have one.Its my right to own one if i so choose without having to explain myself to anyone.
Typical Charleston Heston NRA fanatic response. You SHOULD be required to tell people why you want it. Attitudes like yours is why they push for these assault weapon bans. If people would compromise, and make assurances these kind of guns would not be used for criminal activity, you probably wouldn't see a push for the ban in the first place. Vici you're one SCARY person with some of the responses I've seen you post on this topic.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2970992
Typical Charleston Heston NRA fanatic response. You SHOULD be required to tell people why you want it. Attitudes like yours is why they push for these assault weapon bans. If people would compromise, and make assurances these kind of guns would not be used for criminal activity, you probably wouldn't see a push for the ban in the first place. Vici you're one SCARY person with some of the responses I've seen you post on this topic.
The Constitution clearly lays out that the people have a right to bare arms. Nowhere does it say you should be required to report it or explain why.
Compromise today, a little more tomorrow, pretty soon there's not much left of the Constitution our Nation was founded on.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2970940
You obviously aren't paying attention.
First off, you can't stick an assault rifle in your back pocket either.
2. A cannon had the capacity to kill how many people in one shot? Equivalent to one magazine of any assault rifle.
3. You keep saying it will reduce crime. Yet the criminal element does not purchase guns legally, and they don't go to a gun show to do it either. It is done on the black market or in alleyways. assault weapons account for 2% at the max of gun crimes in this nation. So you are going to cut a market 20% to MAYBE give your self a 2% drop in gun crimes? wait a minute, the criminals will still have and purchase assault rifles however. This doesn't say turn in the guns it prevents the sale of them. Therefore the assault guns in the criminal market will still be available. The criminals in possession of them will still be there. and the kid that wants to shoot up a school with a gun will just grab a different gun or get one off the street.
During the assault rifle ban, on three separate occasion I had the opportunity to still purchase an assault rifle off the street, (I used to be less than stellar citizen when I was younger) Had I wanted the gun for criminal purposes I could have still got it.
Like I said, what is the concrete valid reason for banning the gun.
Would you be ok with the Corvette or Viper automobile getting banned because 1-2% of high speed crashes involve these vehicles when mixed with alcohol.
Drunk Driving kills more people each year that guns do....yet I don't hear a call for prohibition back. Alcohol has one purpose now days, to get drunk.
What's a valid reason for not banning them? I get tired of the "It's my right and I'll have one if I want one" rhetoric. I'll ask you, what is the logical reason for a normal citizen to own a weapon like an Uzi, TEC-9, or other compact semi-auto weapon? Please don't give me the 'target practice' response, or how it's the perfect weapon for home security. We both know that's a crock. Like I said, those style of weapons were created for the sole purpose to be used in military combat.
You keep bringing up the Vette analogy. Gun advocates will use these type of comparisons to justify their arguments. The problem is, someone driving a car fast, or under the influence, does not knowingly have the intent of harming someone with that device. Someone walking around with a semi-auto weapon that's designed for the purpose of nothing more than killing someone, does. How many bank robberies have you seen someone use a Vette for a weapon? Guess you could do a Drive-thru instead of a drive-by with one.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2970996
Nowhere does it say you should be required to report it or explain why.

But doesn't it make sense to ask the criminals why they want a gun? I mean, we know they would tell the truth, right?
 
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