Obama wins!

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2647899
No. The guy has some mission in life to make sure Obama doesn't get elected. It's getting to the point, I really don't care anymore. Like I've said before, Presidents are just blow-hard politicians that'll say anything to get elected. Once they're in, most of their promises never even make it to the Congressional floor. Just like the last Presidential election, we're in a no win scenario. These two candidates are just as bad as Gore and Bush. I just have a bad taste in my mouth for McCain because the guy is nothing more than a Bush clone. If he gets elected, we'll just see the same policies that have put this country on the verge of a Recession, and stuck in a war that's costing billions of dollars, not producing any quantitive results. Yea, yea, get on the Journey Bandwagon and refute that claim. So there's been no attack in the last 7 years. Prove to me us being in Iraq is actually the cause of that. You can't. How many years did Bin Laden's group take to come up with the 9-11 attack?
You actually think McCain will get us out of the hole we're in? My business is slowly losing customers on a daily basis. I have friends in the automotive industry that can't find a job, and most are losing their houses. Major cities in Michigan are turning into ghost towns. Gas is at $4/gallon, and shows no sign of dropping. The cost of food is up 20%, and medical expenses are even higher. Airlines are on the brink of bankruptcy, and now charge $15 just to put a bag on the plane, and $3 for a Coke that used to be free. Unemployment is at an all-time high. Gas prices have caused a trickle-down effect -
You are just flat out wrong, unemployment isn't at an all time high.

American car manufacturers can't give away their life-blood, rock solid vehicles, the SUV and truck. The Big 3 is about to shut down.
Heavy Truck 18-wheel drivers are about to pull over and give the keys to someone else who can afford to pay $800 to fill up the tank, and only make $200 for driving across the country to deliver the goods.
As stated above, airlines have started charging for things that were always taken for granted to be free, and have stopped flying to regional and low-use airports.
Tourist destinations are losing thousands of dollars because people can't afford to fly, or want to drive 15 hours to get there. This affects restaurants, hotels, and amusement park revenues.
Farmers can't afford to run their heavy equipment due to the high price of gas. They make pennies on the dollar in profit when they do.
The housing market has gone into the tank, and you can hardly sell your house for market value even if you wanted to.
I could go on, but you get the picture. So somebody tell me whether McCain or Obama can fix this. If not, who can?
Well you are just flat out wrong, unemployment isn't at an all time high, it simply isn't accurate, 5.5% unemployment twenty years ago was considered full employment, we aren't on the verge of a recession. You argue that gas is 4 dollars a gallon because of bush? Seriously? Why don't you ask why we aren't drilling for the old down the continental slopes, Alaska, and in the dakotas? That is the real reason gas is 4 dollars a gallon. Farmers are experencing some of the HIGHEST prices for their product ever (look at ADM) they are experiencing some of the highest profits they've ever experienced.
Michigan is a local problem, (dems run michigan) and if we don't allow housing to adjust naturally then we'll have a huge fall later on. I could argue, using your same threshold for proof that since Texas is booming that the whole country is good. But thing change, you've and your friends have to change with it. Are you trying to blame the auto industries problems on bush too? Sorry, I can't blame bush for the big three and their negotiations with the unions, and their inability to adjust with the changing markets. (I can blame democrat congress and the clinton presidency for signing legislation hindering our big three from making what they want to make all, green legislation does just that)
Why is it that honda, toyota are opening manufacturing plants in different parts of the USA.
And seriously McCain a bush clone, (the dude tried to switch parties twice over the last 8 years). It is fine if you can't admit we are winning in iraq. But we haven't seen Iraq on the front pages, which means nothing bad is happening there. No news is good news.
All your proof is anecdotal. And has no quanitative measure of accuracy. I can go find some hard luck case anywear. You simply don't know how good you have it here in the USA. Which is just sad. Tell you what, you go work for a year doing humanitarian work for some organization overseas. Then come back and tell me how bad we have it. And then we'll talk.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2647882
Journey, you're a poster child for Bush. 'W' would love every American to have such fervor and admiration towards his policies like you. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I still believe you're dillusional in thinking keeping a presence over in the Middle East is going to put an end to terrorism. We're over there fighting insurgents and terrorists? I thought you said we were over there to start a Democracy, rebuild their ravaged country, and keep peace? Why aren't we concentrating our entire efforts hunting down Bin Laden?
You keep speaking of this UN Resolution. That's nothing more than your out for starting this war. Go back in history prior to 9-11-2001. How many Americans (not just you) cared about Sadaam, or were on Bush's bandwagon to go over there to stop his treatment of the Iraqi people, and to prove he had WMD's? After the first failed attempt, the first Gulf War, practically no one. We lambasted 'W''s daddy for not finishing the guy off then (Mr. Cut N' Run himself). Now move forward past 9-11. Americans were dying for revenge. Bush gets on TV and says he will find who did this, and they will pay. So he gets Congress to back him. But instead of keying all our defenses on Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, he does a 180 and goes after Sadaam instead. Americans are perplexed. Sadaam? What did he do in regards to 9-11? WE WANT THE BIN LADEN GUY!!! By then we bomb Bagdhad, and the rest is history.
Just keep fighting the good fight journey. I really hope your visions prove me wrong. That's one event I don't want to have to tell you, "I told you so"...
If I appear to be a big fan of President Bsh, it's only because we typically discuss foreign affaris. I disagree with the President on many domestic issues (borders, spending, etc,)
Again; I never said being in the Middle East will end all terrorism.
Fighting terrorists and insurgents is a prerequisite over here for establishing Democracy. It's not like they are going to let a Democracy be formed in their backyard without a fight.
Where would you like to put 150,000 US troops in the quest to find Bin Laden? The Russian campaign into the mountains of Afghanistan taught us a lot about warfare in that part of the world...
You dismiss 17 UN Resolutions.. any one of which, if complied to, would have prevented a war in Iraq.
The first Gulf War was in no way a "cut and run" (though it's a valiant attempt to give Obama's strategy some legitimacy). The first Gulf War is in actuality an example of what happens to USA interests when we allow foreign countries to dictate to us what we should do (yet Obama will do the same thing).
You are trying to rewrite history. Read the Congressional Declaration to use Force that gave President Bush the green light to go to war. Many Democrats, including Senator Clinton, said Saddam had to be stopped. Yet you now are trying to claim President Bush did it on his own.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2647933
Well you are just flat out wrong, unemployment isn't at an all time high, it simply isn't accurate, 5.5% unemployment twenty years ago was considered full employment, we aren't on the verge of a recession. You argue that gas is 4 dollars a gallon because of bush? Seriously? Why don't you ask why we aren't drilling for the old down the continental slopes, Alaska, and in the dakotas? That is the real reason gas is 4 dollars a gallon. Farmers are experencing some of the HIGHEST prices for their product ever (look at ADM) they are experiencing some of the highest profits they've ever experienced.
Michigan is a local problem, (dems run michigan) and if we don't allow housing to adjust naturally then we'll have a huge fall later on. I could argue, using your same threshold for proof that since Texas is booming that the whole country is good. But thing change, you've and your friends have to change with it. Are you trying to blame the auto industries problems on bush too? Sorry, I can't blame bush for the big three and their negotiations with the unions, and their inability to adjust with the changing markets. (I can blame democrat congress and the clinton presidency for signing legislation hindering our big three from making what they want to make all, green legislation does just that)
Why is it that honda, toyota are opening manufacturing plants in different parts of the USA.
And seriously McCain a bush clone, (the dude tried to switch parties twice over the last 8 years). It is fine if you can't admit we are winning in iraq. But we haven't seen Iraq on the front pages, which means nothing bad is happening there. No news is good news.
All your proof is anecdotal. And has no quanitative measure of accuracy. I can go find some hard luck case anywear. You simply don't know how good you have it here in the USA. Which is just sad. Tell you what, you go work for a year doing humanitarian work for some organization overseas. Then come back and tell me how bad we have it. And then we'll talk.

When did I say it was Bush's fault? However, since his approval rating is around 28%, seems like most Americans are blaming him for our problems. You're bragging about our unemployment numbers, saying tough to the people in Michigan, and don't think the economy is that bad? Glad you have it so good. Things change? What kind of idiotic statement is that? So we're supposed to just accept things they way they're headed. Only the wealthy and the fittest survive.

[hr]
the middle income families that are barely scraping by. I'm curious what you do for a living.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2647947
If I appear to be a big fan of President Bsh, it's only because we typically discuss foreign affaris. I disagree with the President on many domestic issues (borders, spending, etc,)
Again; I never said being in the Middle East will end all terrorism.
Fighting terrorists and insurgents is a prerequisite over here for establishing Democracy. It's not like they are going to let a Democracy be formed in their backyard without a fight.
Where would you like to put 150,000 US troops in the quest to find Bin Laden? The Russian campaign into the mountains of Afghanistan taught us a lot about warfare in that part of the world...
You dismiss 17 UN Resolutions.. any one of which, if complied to, would have prevented a war in Iraq.
The first Gulf War was in no way a "cut and run" (though it's a valiant attempt to give Obama's strategy some legitimacy). The first Gulf War is in actuality an example of what happens to USA interests when we allow foreign countries to dictate to us what we should do (yet Obama will do the same thing).
You are trying to rewrite history. Read the Congressional Declaration to use Force that gave President Bush the green light to go to war. Many Democrats, including Senator Clinton, said Saddam had to be stopped. Yet you now are trying to claim President Bush did it on his own.
Rewrite history? I'm not trying to claim anything. YOU claim that the war was started strictly because Iraq wouldn't comply with UN Resolutions, and it had nothing to do with revenging 9-11. I stated that the American public would have NEVER supported the war if the only reason was to take over Sadaam. That's not rewriting history. It's stating fact.
So because Russia had no success in Afghanistan, we should just bow down to Bin Laden and say, "Oh well. We'll wait until we can fight you in more favorable conditions." Are you saying the Russian military is superior to ours? That if they couldn't fight in the mountainous regions of Afghanistan, US troops certainly couldn't. Sounds to me like a lame excuse. I'd rather have all our troops doing whatever it takes to bring down Al Qaeda, than sit in Iraq playing policeman, construction worker, and humanitarian.
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
1journeyman;2647756 said:
I hate war. I'm a big fan of winning just wars. I'm also a fan of supporting our troops, our mission, and allowing 30 million people a chance at freedom and liberty. what about the 1.5 million Iraqi casualities? thats U.N. and W.H.O. estimates, what about thier freedom? We went to Iraq for the oil, to build a pipeline to the caspian sea thru Afghanistan and Iran. that and the permanent presence in the region was the real agenda. Not WMD's and not to free a people from thier tyrant. if we were in the people helping business we would have been in Darfur, the Sudan, Saudi Arabia!, and most of the middle east, Africa, and Asia, not to mention Central and South America. Problem is there is no MONEY in helping those people... facts are that after invasion Afghanistan grew and harvested a record amount of poppy and Iraq produced a record amount of crude, these are FACTS!
Never claimed to be the voice of the entire nation.
I will speak, however, for those willing to read the actual UN Resolutions... Not one of the 17 Resolutions passed by the SC of the UN mentions "revenge" as you claim. Powell and Rummy testified that they had hard evidence that Saddam had WMD's thats how they got the ok to invade. the facts are they LIED! Lied to the american public and to the leaders of the entire world.
Well then.. we agree the Second Gulf War served a purpose after all then, don't we... By wiping out Saddam we scared another terrorist nation into destroying their WMD program. who Khadafi? big deal, what about north Korea? NOTHING was done, we'll negotiate with them and they're testing at the time, but we'll invade Iraq from b.s. intelligence from Africa? reason N. Korea is poor with limited nat. resources and no OIL. Iraq = 2nd largest oil reserve in the WORLD!
Mark one up for President Bush.
Then please read it again as that in no way is what I said.
All Saddam had to do to avoid a war was to allow unrestricted access to the inspectors.
Policemen have been fighting "murderers" for thousands of years. Should we have them quit? After all, you seem to believe we can't win a war on terrorists after 6 years of fighting.
The past 6 years prove our fighting over here deterrs attacks on our homeland. Al Qeda has repeatedly threatened to "get revenge". They have limited resources, limited training facilities, and limited experienced leaders. By tying them down in Iraq and Afghanistan we prevent them from opening a concentrated front on our homeland. Here it is... YOU CANT DEFEAT AN IDEA! you can only change it! terrorists are bred every day by our governments actions, we blow up a wedding party albiet unintentionally, those people might have been pro U.S. but i bet there not now, and wont be for GENERATIONS! would you? ( i mean the surviving family members) we have killed 1.5 milion Iraqi CIVILIANS how many possible future terrorists is that going to create? we cant possibly kill everyone who would wish us harm, especially without going into Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and thats NEVER going to happen. Remember 90% of 9/11's highjackers were Saudi's. There are Morracan's who hate us, Serb's and Bosnian's, numerous African's, Asian's, as well as those right here at home. how can our military possibly fight these people everywhere simultainiously? What we can do, the ONLY thing we can do to ensure our safety and prosperity is change these peoples IDEA of us. When the entire world see's that we are like "superman" are all about TRUTH, JUSTICE, and the AMERICAN way they once again will respect us and the "terrorists" wont have a leg to stand on. When were REALLY helping people around the world, they will reject these terrorists organizations instead of flocking to them. We have and need the strongest and SMARTEST military in the world, but the latest battleship, aircraft carrier, or fight jet wont defeat an idea, and in a litteral sense are pretty much useless against this current enemy.
First off, Saddam killed far, far more innocents deliberately, than we've killed accidentally. Second, those we are currently fighting right now in Iraq are terrorists and insurgents. I's not the Iraqi people fighting for their homeland. Wow, what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? those were civilian targets, and again 1.5 million dead Iraqi civilians... there is a civil war in Iraq and there not just killing americans but killing eachother! rockets were fired into the green zone 10 or 12 weeks ago! if it wasnt for the Iranians who negotiated the cease fire in Basrah that city of 5 million would be a war zone. the Brits who were incharge bolted and left the americans with a mess on thier hands.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2648102
First off, Saddam killed far, far more innocents deliberately, than we've killed accidentally. Second, those we are currently fighting right now in Iraq are terrorists and insurgents. I's not the Iraqi people fighting for their homeland. Wow, what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? those were civilian targets, and again 1.5 million dead Iraqi civilians... there is a civil war in Iraq and there not just killing americans but killing eachother! rockets were fired into the green zone 10 or 12 weeks ago! if it wasnt for the Iranians who negotiated the cease fire in Basrah that city of 5 million would be a war zone. the Brits who were incharge bolted and left the americans with a mess on thier hands.
Wow left wing nut job alert! We are terrorists for nuking Japan!
You know what is funny about that, after dropping the bombs deaths due to war dropped to a the very low numbers we see today.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2647859
Are you on McCain's staff there reefraff? I've never seen anyone so willing to trash one candidate, and praise the other. What exactly is your agenda? You have so much hated for Obama it's scary. I hope the guy doesn't get elected. If he does, probably some McCain fanatic like you will do a Bobby or John Kennedy on the guy.
I just posted the stuff I read on the internet like you said you did with the McCain stuff. So who is the fanatic? I don't know Obama, why would I hate him? We agree on one thing I too hope he doesn't get elected. The oval office is no place for an extremist from the left or the right.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2648168
Wow left wing nut job alert! We are terrorists for nuking Japan!
You know what is funny about that, after dropping the bombs deaths due to war dropped to a the very low numbers we see today.
I guess he would have rather saw a couple hundred thousand amaricans killed trying to invade the island.
One thing that amazes me is how clueless some people can be. IT TOOK 2 ATOMIC BOMBS TO CONVINCE JAPAN TO SURRENDER. Had we not used the nukes Japan would have likely suffered just as many or more deaths as they did in the bombings. They would have had to be on the verge of complete anhilation before they would have surrendered/
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2648050
Rewrite history? I'm not trying to claim anything. YOU claim that the war was started strictly because Iraq wouldn't comply with UN Resolutions, and it had nothing to do with revenging 9-11. I stated that the American public would have NEVER supported the war if the only reason was to take over Sadaam. That's not rewriting history. It's stating fact.
.
The American public didn't have a vote on the decision to go to war. It was our elected representative, better than 90% of who were in office and received intellegence reports from the Clinton Administration saying the exact same thing about the WMD Bush did. Do you really think Bill would have let Hillary for for the invasion if he had ANY doubt the WMD was there?
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2648508
I guess he would have rather saw a couple hundred thousand amaricans killed trying to invade the island.
One thing that amazes me is how clueless some people can be. IT TOOK 2 ATOMIC BOMBS TO CONVINCE JAPAN TO SURRENDER. Had we not used the nukes Japan would have likely suffered just as many or more deaths as they did in the bombings. They would have had to be on the verge of complete anhilation before they would have surrendered/
And we did warn them ahead of time. Realistically speaking that was a military strike, considering the japanese, alot of the people who died in the blast would have surely taken up arms against a full fledged invasion. And projected deathtolls put us around 2 million if I remember right. In a house by house assalt.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2648050
Rewrite history? I'm not trying to claim anything. YOU claim that the war was started strictly because Iraq wouldn't comply with UN Resolutions, and it had nothing to do with revenging 9-11. I stated that the American public would have NEVER supported the war if the only reason was to take over Sadaam. That's not rewriting history. It's stating fact.
So because Russia had no success in Afghanistan, we should just bow down to Bin Laden and say, "Oh well. We'll wait until we can fight you in more favorable conditions." Are you saying the Russian military is superior to ours? That if they couldn't fight in the mountainous regions of Afghanistan, US troops certainly couldn't. Sounds to me like a lame excuse. I'd rather have all our troops doing whatever it takes to bring down Al Qaeda, than sit in Iraq playing policeman, construction worker, and humanitarian.
Please read the 17 UN Resolutions and the Joint Resolution passed by our Congress authorizing use of force. Please quote the sections referring to 9-11 being Saddam's fault... Your original premise is totally in error.
Russia tried to use a convential army in Afghanistan and got hammered. The way to fight there is what we are currently doing. Using local forces, using small teams, using special forces, etc.
Don't you think Al Qaeda is currently in Iraq??? Why try t ofight them in the mountains of Afghanistan when we can fight them in the desert and cities of Iraq where our armor and air power are more significant?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2648102
what about the 1.5 million Iraqi casualities? thats U.N. and W.H.O. estimates, what about thier freedom? We went to Iraq for the oil, to build a pipeline to the caspian sea thru Afghanistan and Iran. that and the permanent presence in the region was the real agenda. Not WMD's and not to free a people from thier tyrant. if we were in the people helping business we would have been in Darfur, the Sudan, Saudi Arabia!, and most of the middle east, Africa, and Asia, not to mention Central and South America. Problem is there is no MONEY in helping those people... facts are that after invasion Afghanistan grew and harvested a record amount of poppy and Iraq produced a record amount of crude, these are FACTS!
Never claimed to be the voice of the entire nation.
Powell and Rummy testified that they had hard evidence that Saddam had WMD's thats how they got the ok to invade. the facts are they LIED! Lied to the american public and to the leaders of the entire world.
Well then.. we agree the Second Gulf War served a purpose after all then, don't we... By wiping out Saddam we scared another terrorist nation into destroying their WMD program. who Khadafi? big deal, what about north Korea? NOTHING was done, we'll negotiate with them and they're testing at the time, but we'll invade Iraq from b.s. intelligence from Africa? reason N. Korea is poor with limited nat. resources and no OIL. Iraq = 2nd largest oil reserve in the WORLD!
Mark one up for President Bush.
Then please read it again as that in no way is what I said.
All Saddam had to do to avoid a war was to allow unrestricted access to the inspectors.
Policemen have been fighting "murderers" for thousands of years. Should we have them quit? After all, you seem to believe we can't win a war on terrorists after 6 years of fighting.
The past 6 years prove our fighting over here deterrs attacks on our homeland. Al Qeda has repeatedly threatened to "get revenge". They have limited resources, limited training facilities, and limited experienced leaders. By tying them down in Iraq and Afghanistan we prevent them from opening a concentrated front on our homeland. Here it is... YOU CANT DEFEAT AN IDEA! you can only change it! terrorists are bred every day by our governments actions, we blow up a wedding party albiet unintentionally, those people might have been pro U.S. but i bet there not now, and wont be for GENERATIONS! would you? ( i mean the surviving family members) we have killed 1.5 milion Iraqi CIVILIANS how many possible future terrorists is that going to create? we cant possibly kill everyone who would wish us harm, especially without going into Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and thats NEVER going to happen. Remember 90% of 9/11's highjackers were Saudi's. There are Morracan's who hate us, Serb's and Bosnian's, numerous African's, Asian's, as well as those right here at home. how can our military possibly fight these people everywhere simultainiously? What we can do, the ONLY thing we can do to ensure our safety and prosperity is change these peoples IDEA of us. When the entire world see's that we are like "superman" are all about TRUTH, JUSTICE, and the AMERICAN way they once again will respect us and the "terrorists" wont have a leg to stand on. When were REALLY helping people around the world, they will reject these terrorists organizations instead of flocking to them. We have and need the strongest and SMARTEST military in the world, but the latest battleship, aircraft carrier, or fight jet wont defeat an idea, and in a litteral sense are pretty much useless against this current enemy.
First off, Saddam killed far, far more innocents deliberately, than we've killed accidentally. Second, those we are currently fighting right now in Iraq are terrorists and insurgents. I's not the Iraqi people fighting for their homeland. Wow, what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? those were civilian targets, and again 1.5 million dead Iraqi civilians... there is a civil war in Iraq and there not just killing americans but killing eachother! rockets were fired into the green zone 10 or 12 weeks ago! if it wasnt for the Iranians who negotiated the cease fire in Basrah that city of 5 million would be a war zone. the Brits who were incharge bolted and left the americans with a mess on thier hands.
Vinnie, please do not quote me and mix in your rhetoric... I'll dissect this post later, but for now I'll just state your numbers and information are woefully inaccurate.... Your statements regarding Iraq are so far off the mark they border on mythical.
 

1journeyman

Active Member

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2648102
what about the 1.5 million Iraqi casualities? ....

Yeesh.. where to begin.
First off, the pipeline that you're talking about was a plot to a recent James Bond movie. .. There is no oil in Afghanistan to need a pipeline, and the Iranians surely aren't going to let us ever build a pipeline through their country. Where the heck, besides a Bond Movie, did you get this from???
We went to Iraq for oil... funny. Seems to me that Iraq is currently exporting near record levels of oil, and yet we have record prices in the US. Where is my free oil?
(these are facts, btw...)
Rumfeld and Powell lied about WMDs. So did the intelligence agencies of Russia, China, Israel, Germany, Spain, Britain... so did the UN. So did Saddam himself. so did leading Democrats at the time. So did President Clinton, etc. See a trend here?
What about North Korea? In the last 50 years has N. Korea attacked, invaded, and tried to obliterate one of our allies? We have had regional talks with North korea. What do you want us to do?
You can't defeat an idea? Good thing no one told President Reagan that when we defeated Communism in Europe, huh. By Al Qaeda's own admission they are losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the people of Iraq. The insurgents are losing... The recent occupation of Sadr City by the Iraqi army is proof positive of such.
We have killed 1.5 million civilians? That is total CRAP
. Please provide a UN link to such rubbish. There are only 27 million people in Iraq. if anyone thinks we've killed almost 5% of the civilian population here they need their head examined.
What about Hiroshima and Nagosaki? As mentioned, we gave them 3 days notice to clear the cities.
Before you go spouting off about Hiroshima, do a quick read up on the german citizens of Dresden. Read how many people died to allied bombers in a course of 3 days there. Clearly, anyone with any vague notion of how battles were fought in WW2 would quickly realize far, far more Japanes would have died had we invaded the island of Japan. Why you would even bring this up is beyond me. It shows a genuine lack of knowledge regarding WW2.
Basrah is not admist a civil war. Nor is it a mess. Basrah is the leading oil exporting city in Iraq. Obviously the city is functioning pretty well for Iraq to be exporting near record levels of oil. Tehran didn't negotiate anything. The militant cleric Sadr, who is hiding out in Tehran, had loyalist troops in Basrah. He agreed to a cease fire. For you to mention Iran further shows you are missing the fact that Iran is fueling the insurgency...
Please, please, please post a link to the 1.5 million civilians we've killed in Iraq. I reeeeaaaaalllllyyyy want to read that UN report.
 

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2648648
Yeesh.. where to begin.
First off, the pipeline that you're talking about was a plot to a recent James Bond movie. .. There is no oil in Afghanistan to need a pipeline, and the Iranians surely aren't going to let us ever build a pipeline through their country. Where the heck, besides a Bond Movie, did you get this from???
We went to Iraq for oil... funny. Seems to me that Iraq is currently exporting near record levels of oil, and yet we have record prices in the US. Where is my free oil?
(these are facts, btw...)
Rumfeld and Powell lied about WMDs. So did the intelligence agencies of Russia, China, Israel, Germany, Spain, Britain... so did the UN. So did Saddam himself. so did leading Democrats at the time. So did President Clinton, etc. See a trend here?
What about North Korea? In the last 50 years has N. Korea attacked, invaded, and tried to obliterate one of our allies? We have had regional talks with North korea. What do you want us to do?
You can't defeat an idea? Good thing no one told President Reagan that when we defeated Communism in Europe, huh. By Al Qaeda's own admission they are losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the people of Iraq. The insurgents are losing... The recent occupation of Sadr City by the Iraqi army is proof positive of such.
We have killed 1.5 million civilians? That is total CRAP
. Please provide a UN link to such rubbish. There are only 27 million people in Iraq. if anyone thinks we've killed almost 5% of the civilian population here they need their head examined.
What about Hiroshima and Nagosaki? As mentioned, we gave them 3 days notice to clear the cities.
Before you go spouting off about Hiroshima, do a quick read up on the german citizens of Dresden. Read how many people died to allied bombers in a course of 3 days there. Clearly, anyone with any vague notion of how battles were fought in WW2 would quickly realize far, far more Japanes would have died had we invaded the island of Japan. Why you would even bring this up is beyond me. It shows a genuine lack of knowledge regarding WW2.
Basrah is not admist a civil war. Nor is it a mess. Basrah is the leading oil exporting city in Iraq. Obviously the city is functioning pretty well for Iraq to be exporting near record levels of oil. Tehran didn't negotiate anything. The militant cleric Sadr, who is hiding out in Tehran, had loyalist troops in Basrah. He agreed to a cease fire. For you to mention Iran further shows you are missing the fact that Iran is fueling the insurgency...
Please, please, please post a link to the 1.5 million civilians we've killed in Iraq. I reeeeaaaaalllllyyyy want to read that UN report.

Facts aren't important, the accusation is what is important.
 

bionicarm

Active Member

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2648563
Please read the 17 UN Resolutions and the Joint Resolution passed by our Congress authorizing use of force. Please quote the sections referring to 9-11 being Saddam's fault... Your original premise is totally in error.
Russia tried to use a convential army in Afghanistan and got hammered. The way to fight there is what we are currently doing. Using local forces, using small teams, using special forces, etc.
Don't you think Al Qaeda is currently in Iraq??? Why try t ofight them in the mountains of Afghanistan when we can fight them in the desert and cities of Iraq where our armor and air power are more significant?
Like I said, talking to a brick wall. I could care less what that useless Resolution states. Why do you keep ignoring what I say, and just keep spouting the same useless garbage over and over? Apparently you and reefraff want to justify this stupid war by saying our whole intention for starting it was Sadaam wouldn't comply. One more time -- THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WOULD HAVE NEVER, AGAIN, NEVER
AGREED TO THE WAR JUST ON THE NOTION SADAAM HAD WMD'S. THE ONLY REASON ANYONE, INCLUDING CONGRESS, AGREED ON THE WAR BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTED REVENGE FOR 9-11!!!!
Then reefraff tries to validate it by saying we as Americans had no say in it, that's why we have elected officials in Congress. What a freaking cop out. Then on top of that, he tries to blame Clinton for it.
You two need to go hang out in a rubber room together.
Now Al Qaeda is hanging out in Iraq? WOW!! So we've been looking for Bin Laden all this time in the wrong place!! Yet another moronic comment. Hey journey, look around your office there. Bin Laden may be sitting right next to you, using our computers to design his next attack.
 

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2649102
Like I said, talking to a brick wall. I could care less what that useless Resolution states. Why do you keep ignoring what I say, and just keep spouting the same useless garbage over and over? Apparently you and reefraff want to justify this stupid war by saying our whole intention for starting it was Sadaam wouldn't comply. One more time -- THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WOULD HAVE NEVER, AGAIN, NEVER
AGREED TO THE WAR JUST ON THE NOTION SADAAM HAD WMD'S. THE ONLY REASON ANYONE, INCLUDING CONGRESS, AGREED ON THE WAR BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTED REVENGE FOR 9-11!!!!
Then reefraff tries to validate it by saying we as Americans had no say in it, that's why we have elected officials in Congress. What a freaking cop out. Then on top of that, he tries to blame Clinton for it.
You two need to go hang out in a rubber room together.
Now Al Qaeda is hanging out in Iraq? WOW!! So we've been looking for Bin Laden all this time in the wrong place!! Yet another moronic comment. Hey journey, look around your office there. Bin Laden may be sitting right next to you, using our computers to design his next attack.

Revenge, I guess, well no, it is a pretty negative statement regarding our country. But something that isn't refutable. Maybe in your mind, we did.
What I really don't understand is this statement, It make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Now Al Qaeda is hanging out in Iraq? WOW!! So we've been looking for Bin Laden all this time in the wrong place!

yes, there are Al Qaeda in Iraq, along with along of other deviants. What is so hard to grasp about that.
Listen to clinton, both of them, do some research. They stated with no wiggle room that Sadaam had WMD's. It is a fact, there is no disputing this. I'm not sure how that means we are blaming clinton. Why would I blame clinton for something I agree with as far as actions bush took?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2649102
Like I said, talking to a brick wall. I could care less what that useless Resolution states. Why do you keep ignoring what I say, and just keep spouting the same useless garbage over and over? Apparently you and reefraff want to justify this stupid war by saying our whole intention for starting it was Sadaam wouldn't comply. One more time -- THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WOULD HAVE NEVER, AGAIN, NEVER
AGREED TO THE WAR JUST ON THE NOTION SADAAM HAD WMD'S. THE ONLY REASON ANYONE, INCLUDING CONGRESS, AGREED ON THE WAR BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTED REVENGE FOR 9-11!!!!
Then reefraff tries to validate it by saying we as Americans had no say in it, that's why we have elected officials in Congress. What a freaking cop out. Then on top of that, he tries to blame Clinton for it.
You two need to go hang out in a rubber room together.
Now Al Qaeda is hanging out in Iraq? WOW!! So we've been looking for Bin Laden all this time in the wrong place!! Yet another moronic comment. Hey journey, look around your office there. Bin Laden may be sitting right next to you, using our computers to design his next attack.


This statement right here shows your lack of historical comprehension and even your lack of comprehension for current events. We originally went in because of WMD, the population of the U.S. supported this to the tune of 65-70% of the population. The news all the broadcasted was WMD, no one once reported a revenge reason for 9/11 before we went in. You my friend must suffer from amnesia.
Let me give you a quick rundown of what happenned. When we invaded Afghanistan, MANY al qaeda members fled to pakistan Iraq and Iran. This is an undisputed FACT. The insurgents we are fighting now many are Al Qaeda operatives.
You say we keep ignoring what you are saying, we are not, there have been wild claims made in the last 2 pages of this thread. None of them backed up with one single shred of proof or a link, from the 1.5 million casualties to the mythical pipeline.
Oh and that reminds me, if we went in for oil so we could control it, why is a company from Denmark in charge of the day to day operation of the oil in Iraq...not a U.S. company. I am curious how you will twist this.
 

1journeyman

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2649102
Like I said, talking to a brick wall. I could care less what that useless Resolution states. Why do you keep ignoring what I say, and just keep spouting the same useless garbage over and over? Apparently you and reefraff want to justify this stupid war by saying our whole intention for starting it was Sadaam wouldn't comply. One more time -- THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WOULD HAVE NEVER, AGAIN, NEVER
AGREED TO THE WAR JUST ON THE NOTION SADAAM HAD WMD'S. THE ONLY REASON ANYONE, INCLUDING CONGRESS, AGREED ON THE WAR BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTED REVENGE FOR 9-11!!!!
Then reefraff tries to validate it by saying we as Americans had no say in it, that's why we have elected officials in Congress. What a freaking cop out. Then on top of that, he tries to blame Clinton for it.
You two need to go hang out in a rubber room together.
Now Al Qaeda is hanging out in Iraq? WOW!! So we've been looking for Bin Laden all this time in the wrong place!! Yet another moronic comment. Hey journey, look around your office there. Bin Laden may be sitting right next to you, using our computers to design his next attack.

I'm not ignoring what you say. I've repeatedly broken down what you said and offered proof that your claims are wholly without any merit. you claim that the American people went to war for "revenge" yet can offer no substance whatsoever to back up your claim. I, on the other hand, have offered the actual Joint Resolution passed by Congress that clearly states why we went to war.
Are you denying Al Qaeda is in Iraq currently?
 

reefraff

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2649102
Like I said, talking to a brick wall. I could care less what that useless Resolution states. Why do you keep ignoring what I say, and just keep spouting the same useless garbage over and over? Apparently you and reefraff want to justify this stupid war by saying our whole intention for starting it was Sadaam wouldn't comply. One more time -- THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WOULD HAVE NEVER, AGAIN, NEVER
AGREED TO THE WAR JUST ON THE NOTION SADAAM HAD WMD'S. THE ONLY REASON ANYONE, INCLUDING CONGRESS, AGREED ON THE WAR BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTED REVENGE FOR 9-11!!!!
Fun facts about the reasons we decided to invade Iraq after 9-11
Al Qaeda-Iraq links

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun16.html
"The staff report said that bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq" while in Sudan through 1996, but that "Iraq apparently never responded" to a bin Laden request for help in 1994. The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, "but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."
Before the invasion there was no way to know what resulted from KNOWN CONTACTS BETWEEN AL QAEDA AND THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT

Guess who came up with the notion Iraq and Al Qaeda were connected
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/2847.html
""The al Shifa plant in Sudan was largely destroyed after being hit by six Tomahawk missiles. John McWethy, national security correspondent for ABC News, reported the story on August 25, 1998:
Before the pharmaceutical plant was reduced to rubble by American cruise missiles, the CIA was secretly gathering evidence that ended up putting the facility on America's target list. Intelligence sources say their agents clandestinely gathered soil samples outside the plant and found, quote, "strong evidence" of a chemical compound called EMPTA, a compound that has only one known purpose, to make VX nerve gas.
Then, the connection:
The U.S. had been suspicious for months, partly because of Osama bin Laden's financial ties, but also because of strong connections to Iraq. Sources say the U.S. had intercepted phone calls from the plant to a man in Iraq who runs that country's chemical weapons program.
The senior intelligence officials who briefed reporters laid out the collaboration. "We knew there were fuzzy ties between [bin Laden] and the plant but strong ties between him and Sudan and strong ties between the plant and Sudan and strong ties between the plant and Iraq." Although this official was careful not to oversell bin Laden's ties to the plant, other Clinton officials told reporters that the plant's general manager lived in a villa owned by bin Laden. r />
Several Clinton administration national security officials told THE WEEKLY STANDARD last week that they stand by the intelligence. "The bottom line for me is that the targeting was justified and appropriate," said Daniel Benjamin, director of counterterrorism on Clinton's National Security Council, in an emailed response to questions. "I would be surprised if any president--
with the evidence of al Qaeda's intentions evident in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam and the intelligence on [chemical weapons] that was at hand from Sudan--would have made a different decision about bombing the plant.""
Iraq was known to be planning strikes on US

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ussia.warning/
""I can confirm that after the events of September 11, 2001, and up to the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services and Russian intelligence several times received ... information that official organs of Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the United States and beyond its borders, at U.S. military and civilian locations," Putin said.""
So we have a country with known contacts with the terrorist group that hit us 9-11-2001. EVERY major intellegence agency in the world believed they had WMD's. Even Russian President Vladmir Putin says Iraq was looking for a way to make a terrorist strike on the US. I'd say thats a pretty good reason for the invasion
 
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