Obama wins!

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2653940
600,000 in THIS war! both wars combined + deaths do to sanctions puts it over 1.5 million, just to clarify!
Changing what he said later, love it!
But wait a second, sanctions are what diplomats use when trying to muscle someone. If we use your numbers that is over 800,000 dead due to diplomats, 600,000 due to bullets. I ask you what is more dangerous diplomats or bullets?

 

[vinnyraptor]

i explained the pipeline more throughly above, and i know all about building 7 thank you..

 

[vinnyraptor]

i didnt change anything read my first thread on this. i said 1.5 million and 600,000 in this war alone. bash me, but dont misquote me or call me a liar.
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2653976
Changing what he said later, love it!
But wait a second, sanctions are what diplomats use when trying to muscle someone. If we use your numbers that is over 800,000 dead due to diplomats, 600,000 due to bullets. I ask you what is more dangerous diplomats or bullets?

 

[vinnyraptor]

todays Newyork Times..Published: June 19, 2008
BAGHDAD — Four Western oil companies are in the final stages of negotiations this month on contracts that will return them to Iraq, 36 years after losing their oil concession to nationalization as Saddam Hussein rose to power.
Skip to next paragraph
The Reach of War
Go to Complete Coverage »
Managing Globalization Blog (IHT)
High Energy Thursday: A Peculiar Deal for Some of Iraq’s Oil
Go to Blog »
Related
U.S. Blames Shiite Leader for Deadly Baghdad Blast (June 19, 2008) Exxon Mobil, Shell, Total and BP — the original partners in the Iraq Petroleum Company — along with Chevron and a number of smaller oil companies, are in talks with Iraq’s Oil Ministry for no-bid contracts to service Iraq’s largest fields, according to ministry officials, oil company officials and an American diplomat.
The deals, expected to be announced on June 30, will lay the foundation for the first commercial work for the major companies in Iraq since the American invasion, and open a new and potentially lucrative country for their operations.
The no-bid contracts are unusual for the industry, and the offers prevailed over others by more than 40 companies, including companies in Russia, China and India. The contracts, which would run for one to two years and are relatively small by industry standards, would nonetheless give the companies an advantage in bidding on future contracts in a country that many experts consider to be the best hope for a large-scale increase in oil production.
There was suspicion among many in the Arab world and among parts of the American public that the United States had gone to war in Iraq precisely to secure the oil wealth these contracts seek to extract. The Bush administration has said that the war was necessary to combat terrorism. It is not clear what role the United States played in awarding the contracts; there are still American advisers to Iraq’s Oil Ministry.
Sensitive to the appearance that they were profiting from the war and already under pressure because of record high oil prices, senior officials of two of the companies, speaking only on the condition that they not be identified, said they were helping Iraq rebuild its decrepit oil industry.
For an industry being frozen out of new ventures in the world’s dominant oil-producing countries, from Russia to Venezuela, Iraq offers a rare and prized opportunity.
While enriched by $140 per barrel oil, the oil majors are also struggling to replace their reserves as ever more of the world’s oil patch becomes off limits. Governments in countries like Bolivia and Venezuela are nationalizing their oil industries or seeking a larger share of the record profits for their national budgets. Russia and Kazakhstan have forced the major companies to renegotiate contracts.
The Iraqi government’s stated goal in inviting back the major companies is to increase oil production by half a million barrels per day by attracting modern technology and expertise to oil fields now desperately short of both. The revenue would be used for reconstruction, although the Iraqi government has had trouble spending the oil revenues it now has, in part because of bureaucratic inefficiency.
For the American government, increasing output in Iraq, as elsewhere, serves the foreign policy goal of increasing oil production globally to alleviate the exceptionally tight supply that is a cause of soaring prices.
The Iraqi Oil Ministry, through a spokesman, said the no-bid contracts were a stop-gap measure to bring modern skills into the fields while the oil law was pending in Parliament.
It said the companies had been chosen because they had been advising the ministry without charge for two years before being awarded the contracts, and because these companies had the needed technology.
A Shell spokeswoman hinted at the kind of work the companies might be engaged in. “We can confirm that we have submitted a conceptual proposal to the Iraqi authorities to minimize current and future gas flaring in the south through gas gathering and utilization,” said the spokeswoman, Marnie Funk. “The contents of the proposal are confidential.”
While small, the deals hold great promise for the companies.
“The bigger prize everybody is waiting for is development of the giant new fields,” Leila Benali, an authority on Middle East oil at Cambridge Energy Research Associates, said in a telephone interview from the firm’s

[hr]
office. The current contracts, she said, are a “foothold” in Iraq for companies striving for these longer-term deals.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2645312
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From one of your links:
"These parents’ beliefs and observations were reinforced by a small study of bowel disease and autism, published by Wakefield and his colleagues in 1998 (Wakefield et al 1998).The study’s authors suggested that there was a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.This study did not include scientific testing to find out if there was a link.The authors relied on the reports of parents and families of the 12 children with autism involved in the study to make their suggestion. The study did not provide scientific proof that there was any link. "
Read the last line again:
"The study did not provide scientific proof that there was any link. "
There may be scientific proof someday, but until that point, the benefits well outweigh the risks. I will be the first to NOT recommend the vaccines if they are proven scientifically to be a bigger risk than benefit. Nothing is 100% safe in life, especially medicine. We have to weigh the risks vs the benefits, and until, proven immunizations are still recommended.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2654158
todays Newyork Times..Published: June 19, 2008
BAGHDAD — Four Western oil companies are in the final stages of negotiations this month on contracts that will return them to Iraq, 36 years after losing their oil concession to nationalization as Saddam Hussein rose to power.
Skip to next paragraph
The Reach of War
Go to Complete Coverage »
Managing Globalization Blog (IHT)
High Energy Thursday: A Peculiar Deal for Some of Iraq’s Oil
Go to Blog »
Related
U.S. Blames Shiite Leader for Deadly Baghdad Blast (June 19, 2008) Exxon Mobil, Shell, Total and BP — the original partners in the Iraq Petroleum Company — along with Chevron and a number of smaller oil companies, are in talks with Iraq’s Oil Ministry for no-bid contracts to service Iraq’s largest fields, according to ministry officials, oil company officials and an American diplomat.
The deals, expected to be announced on June 30, will lay the foundation for the first commercial work for the major companies in Iraq since the American invasion, and open a new and potentially lucrative country for their operations.
The no-bid contracts are unusual for the industry, and the offers prevailed over others by more than 40 companies, including companies in Russia, China and India. The contracts, which would run for one to two years and are relatively small by industry standards, would nonetheless give the companies an advantage in bidding on future contracts in a country that many experts consider to be the best hope for a large-scale increase in oil production.
There was suspicion among many in the Arab world and among parts of the American public that the United States had gone to war in Iraq precisely to secure the oil wealth these contracts seek to extract. The Bush administration has said that the war was necessary to combat terrorism. It is not clear what role the United States played in awarding the contracts; there are still American advisers to Iraq’s Oil Ministry.
Sensitive to the appearance that they were profiting from the war and already under pressure because of record high oil prices, senior officials of two of the companies, speaking only on the condition that they not be identified, said they were helping Iraq rebuild its decrepit oil industry.
For an industry being frozen out of new ventures in the world’s dominant oil-producing countries, from Russia to Venezuela, Iraq offers a rare and prized opportunity.
While enriched by $140 per barrel oil, the oil majors are also struggling to replace their reserves as ever more of the world’s oil patch becomes off limits. Governments in countries like Bolivia and Venezuela are nationalizing their oil industries or seeking a larger share of the record profits for their national budgets. Russia and Kazakhstan have forced the major companies to renegotiate contracts.
The Iraqi government’s stated goal in inviting back the major companies is to increase oil production by half a million barrels per day by attracting modern technology and expertise to oil fields now desperately short of both. The revenue would be used for reconstruction, although the Iraqi government has had trouble spending the oil revenues it now has, in part because of bureaucratic inefficiency.
For the American government, increasing output in Iraq, as elsewhere, serves the foreign policy goal of increasing oil production globally to alleviate the exceptionally tight supply that is a cause of soaring prices.
The Iraqi Oil Ministry, through a spokesman, said the no-bid contracts were a stop-gap measure to bring modern skills into the fields while the oil law was pending in Parliament.
It said the companies had been chosen because they had been advising the ministry without charge for two years before being awarded the contracts, and because these companies had the needed technology.
A Shell spokeswoman hinted at the kind of work the companies might be engaged in. “We can confirm that we have submitted a conceptual proposal to the Iraqi authorities to minimize current and future gas flaring in the south through gas gathering and utilization,” said the spokeswoman, Marnie Funk. “The contents of the proposal are confidential.”
While small, the deals hold great promise for the companies.
“The bigger prize everybody is waiting for is development of the giant new fields,” Leila Benali, an authority on Middle East oil at Cambridge Energy Research Associates, said in a telephone interview from the firm’s

[hr]
office. The current contracts, she said, are a “foothold” in Iraq for companies striving for these longer-term deals.
yeah, especially the two european companies...

 

[jmick]

2%? Are you kidding me, try 40%. QUOTE]
George W. Bush (2001-08)
Human Resources 38.0%
Social Security 12.8%
National Defense 11.4%
Physical Resources 3.1%
Medicare 7.3%
Health 5.8%
Social Services 2.2%
Veterans Benefits 1.6%
Transportation 1.7%
Justice Administration 1.0%
Looks like it's about 2% to me

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2652294
2%? Are you kidding me, try 40%. QUOTE]
George W. Bush (2001-08)
Human Resources 38.0%
Social Security 12.8%
National Defense 11.4%
Physical Resources 3.1%
Medicare 7.3%
Health 5.8%
Social Services 2.2%
Veterans Benefits 1.6%
Transportation 1.7%
Justice Administration 1.0%
Looks like it's about 2% to me

Interesting, only about 15% Constitutional spending

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Hydrodamoper
http:///forum/post/2653199
I looked at the three links provided and could not find where it says anything about a "vast majority of people in poverty" have any sort of mental issues

.
So I spend the last hour or so diggin around and cant find a number on the web.
Where I learned about this was one of the news shows. The reason I remember it is I lived in Montana at the time and an author who had lived 2 years working entry level jobs as research for a book on poverty was part of the panel and was raised in Butte Montana. Not many people of any note from Butte except for Evil Knivel.
Anyway they were discussing raising the minimum wage and one of the arguments against it was that most (not all) people living below the poverty line couldn't hold down a permanent full time job and the reason they gave was most (again not all) suffered from addiction and mental disorders. Not even those favoring the wage increase disputed that which kinda surprised me. I did see estimates as high as 70% for homeless with mental or addiction issues. So why I cant give you a link I will stand behind the majority claim.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2654284
yeah, especially the two european companies...
Aren't Shell, BP and Total all European?
Doesn't much matter, They should give the business to US companies for all the money and lives we've spent.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2653940
600,000 in THIS war! both wars combined + deaths do to sanctions puts it over 1.5 million, just to clarify!
Links to UN published reports?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2653959
natural gas will be pumped from Iran to the sea, it will also run from Iraq thru Iran to the caspian sea, pumping crude, both lines will also run through Afghanistan to feed Pakistan and China, does that make sense?
So, instead of continuing to pump oil from Iraq into the Persian Gulf, these (because now you are talking about multiple pipelines) pipelines will all join in the Caspian sea? Why???
Why would Iraq quit exporting their oil directly and instead pump it into a Soviet controlled pipeline that would entail building a huge pipeline across hostile Iran?
Look again at the map Vinny... You've almost convinced me the Afghan invasion and Iraq WAr were Soviet plots at this point.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2653991
i didnt change anything read my first thread on this. i said 1.5 million and 600,000 in this war alone. bash me, but dont misquote me or call me a liar.
Here is your first post, along with my comments you were referring too (and quoted in your reply)
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2647756
I hate war. I'm a big fan of winning just wars. I'm also a fan of supporting our troops, our mission, and allowing 30 million people a chance at freedom and liberty.... First off, Saddam killed far, far more innocents deliberately, than we've killed accidentally. Second, those we are currently fighting right now in Iraq are terrorists and insurgents. I's not the Iraqi people fighting for their homeland

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2648102
what about the 1.5 million Iraqi casualities? thats U.N. and W.H.O. estimates, what about thier freedom?...Wow, what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? those were civilian targets, and again 1.5 million dead Iraqi civilians
I don't see anything mentioned about the first war or sanctions.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2653991
i didnt change anything read my first thread on this. i said 1.5 million and 600,000 in this war alone. bash me, but dont misquote me or call me a liar.
How about explaining your comment that we killed more civilians in one day in Hiroshima and Nagasaki than died in most wars combined?

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2652294
2%? Are you kidding me, try 40%. QUOTE]
George W. Bush (2001-08)
Human Resources 38.0%
Social Security 12.8%
National Defense 11.4%
Physical Resources 3.1%
Medicare 7.3%
Health 5.8%
Social Services 2.2%
Veterans Benefits 1.6%
Transportation 1.7%
Justice Administration 1.0%
Looks like it's about 2% to me

Where did you find that? Just curious on the link,
Here is a simple one for 2005. Medicare and medicade alone on this one total 20%
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1
2003
http://www.icdr.us/atreportweb/images/chart5.jpg
and here is 2008's break down in more detail.
* Mandatory spending: $1.788 trillion (+4.2%)
o $608 billion (+4.5%) - Social Security
o $386 billion (+5.2%) - Medicare
o $209 billion (+5.6%) - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
o $324 billion (+1.8%) - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
o $261 billion (+9.2%) - Interest on National Debt
* Discretionary spending: $1.114 trillion (+3.1%)
o $481.4 billion (+12.1%) - United States Department of Defense
o $145.2 billion (+45.8%) - Global War on Terror
o $69.3 billion (+0.3%) - Health and Human Services
o $56.0 billion (+0.0%) - United States Department of Education
o $39.4 billion (+18.7%) - United States Department of Veterans Affairs
o $35.2 billion (+1.4%) - US Department of Housing and Urban Development
o $35.0 billion (+22.0%) - State and Other International Programs
o $34.3 billion (+7.2%) - Department of Homeland Security
o $24.3 billion (+6.6%) - Energy
o $20.2 billion (+4.1%) - Department of Justice
o $20.2 billion (+3.1%) - Department of Agriculture
o $17.3 billion (+6.8%) - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
o $12.1 billion (+13.1%) - Department of Transportation
o $12.1 billion (+6.1%) - Department of Treasury
o $10.6 billion (+2.9%) - United States Department of the ********
o $10.6 billion (-9.4%) - United States Department of Labor
o $51.8 billion (+9.7%) - Other On-budget Discretionary Spending
o $39.0 billion - Other Off-budget Discretionary Spending
Looks to me like a LOT more than 2% is going to medicare, medicade, unemployment, welfare and heath and human services, not to mention foreign aid is spread out amongst various depatments....
I may have been a bit off with my 40% but I am a lot closer than your 2% and I am not even count Social security which is also a "safety net" program in some cases.

 

[reefraff]

Entitlement spending overall makes up something like 53% of the federal budget but that includes a lot more than Medicare and SS.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2654416
Aren't Shell, BP and Total all European?
Doesn't much matter, They should give the business to US companies for all the money and lives we've spent.
oh crap how did I forget about shell?

 

[vinnyraptor]

what about the other links? there are several...
Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2654258
From one of your links:
"These parents’ beliefs and observations were reinforced by a small study of bowel disease and autism, published by Wakefield and his colleagues in 1998 (Wakefield et al 1998).The study’s authors suggested that there was a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.This study did not include scientific testing to find out if there was a link.The authors relied on the reports of parents and families of the 12 children with autism involved in the study to make their suggestion. The study did not provide scientific proof that there was any link. "
Read the last line again:
"The study did not provide scientific proof that there was any link. "
There may be scientific proof someday, but until that point, the benefits well outweigh the risks. I will be the first to NOT recommend the vaccines if they are proven scientifically to be a bigger risk than benefit. Nothing is 100% safe in life, especially medicine. We have to weigh the risks vs the benefits, and until, proven immunizations are still recommended.

 

[reefraff]

So I assume all these parents who wont vaccinate their kids all homeschool?

 

[vinnyraptor]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2654328
Where did you find that? Just curious on the link,
Here is a simple one for 2005. Medicare and medicade alone on this one total 20%
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1
2003
http://www.icdr.us/atreportweb/images/chart5.jpg
and here is 2008's break down in more detail.
* Mandatory spending: $1.788 trillion (+4.2%)
o $608 billion (+4.5%) - Social Security
o $386 billion (+5.2%) - Medicare
o $209 billion (+5.6%) - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
o $324 billion (+1.8%) - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
o $261 billion (+9.2%) - Interest on National Debt
* Discretionary spending: $1.114 trillion (+3.1%)
o $481.4 billion (+12.1%) - United States Department of Defense
o $145.2 billion (+45.8%) - Global War on Terror
o $69.3 billion (+0.3%) - Health and Human Services
o $56.0 billion (+0.0%) - United States Department of Education
o $39.4 billion (+18.7%) - United States Department of Veterans Affairs
o $35.2 billion (+1.4%) - US Department of Housing and Urban Development
o $35.0 billion (+22.0%) - State and Other International Programs
o $34.3 billion (+7.2%) - Department of Homeland Security
o $24.3 billion (+6.6%) - Energy
o $20.2 billion (+4.1%) - Department of Justice
o $20.2 billion (+3.1%) - Department of Agriculture
o $17.3 billion (+6.8%) - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
o $12.1 billion (+13.1%) - Department of Transportation
o $12.1 billion (+6.1%) - Department of Treasury
o $10.6 billion (+2.9%) - United States Department of the ********
o $10.6 billion (-9.4%) - United States Department of Labor
o $51.8 billion (+9.7%) - Other On-budget Discretionary Spending
o $39.0 billion - Other Off-budget Discretionary Spending
Looks to me like a LOT more than 2% is going to medicare, medicade, unemployment, welfare and heath and human services, not to mention foreign aid is spread out amongst various depatments....
I may have been a bit off with my 40% but I am a lot closer than your 2% and I am not even count Social security which is also a "safety net" program in some cases.
Questions - the mandatory spending, is that specifically alotted for such programs? in other words do we have to spend that amount on those programs to do law. and is that the minimum or maximum amounts?
the discretionary spending, this is the actual amount policy makers get to work with right? i honestly dont know, but if so half on defense and the war is blasphemy to me. especially when the current enemy has no real army. tanks, aircraft, and battleships are nearly useless, i think we could easily cut that down 200 billion and concentrate on intel, and special forces. i assume that defense includes all of our bases globally, including those in Iraq. closing the Iraqi bases will save us billions alone.
heres how i see it...
Education + Energy + Justice + Agriculture + N.A.S.A. + Health and Human services + Housing + Transportation = 254.6 billion
Defense + War = 626.6 billion
and you call me nuts, lol