aandwrobert
Member
serbia invaded those countries because we gave them all the weapons after the split of yugoslovia I know a friend who lost his dad becsause we gave them weapons and not the other countries
Ok, political thought..only read if interested
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aandwrobert
Member
btw its good to know there are still some left wingers in the mix
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
As long as there is economic inequality in the world there will be terrorism, it will never cease to exist. When a country does not have the financial power to finance a traditional war their main option will be to engage in terrorism. Like the IRA engaged the English in Northern Ireland and England and what we now see in the middle-east.
This war has nothing to do with economics....
Originally Posted by jmick
I really enjoyed the bit above how if we don’t win this “war” then the streets of NY will look like Baghdad in 10 years. This is such right-wing rhetoric and utter rubbish. What happened on 9/11 is not something we are likely to see again in our lifetime and I’m still rather surprised with the amount of intel we had it was still able to happen.....
What exactly are you basing this on? Has Al Qaeda not attacked Spain, London, and tried to bring down 10-20 commercial flights over the Atlantice all post 9-11?
I would love to know how you can say we'll never be attacked again when our enemy has sworn that they will...
As long as there is economic inequality in the world there will be terrorism, it will never cease to exist. When a country does not have the financial power to finance a traditional war their main option will be to engage in terrorism. Like the IRA engaged the English in Northern Ireland and England and what we now see in the middle-east.
This war has nothing to do with economics....
Originally Posted by jmick
I really enjoyed the bit above how if we don’t win this “war” then the streets of NY will look like Baghdad in 10 years. This is such right-wing rhetoric and utter rubbish. What happened on 9/11 is not something we are likely to see again in our lifetime and I’m still rather surprised with the amount of intel we had it was still able to happen.....
What exactly are you basing this on? Has Al Qaeda not attacked Spain, London, and tried to bring down 10-20 commercial flights over the Atlantice all post 9-11?
I would love to know how you can say we'll never be attacked again when our enemy has sworn that they will...
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
What do you think about the native ethnic group we have all but wiped out?
I think it was horrible. I also think the way the Mayans sacrificed prisoners was horrible. And let's not even talk about what the Assyrians were capable of.....
What do you think about the native ethnic group we have all but wiped out?
I think it was horrible. I also think the way the Mayans sacrificed prisoners was horrible. And let's not even talk about what the Assyrians were capable of.....
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
serbia invaded those countries because we gave them all the weapons after the split of yugoslovia I know a friend who lost his dad becsause we gave them weapons and not the other countries
False.
Aandwrobert, do you plan on continuing to make things up? What weapons did we give the Serbs. Have you been to that part of the world? I have.
serbia invaded those countries because we gave them all the weapons after the split of yugoslovia I know a friend who lost his dad becsause we gave them weapons and not the other countries
False.
Aandwrobert, do you plan on continuing to make things up? What weapons did we give the Serbs. Have you been to that part of the world? I have.
aandwrobert
Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
False.
Aandwrobert, do you plan on continuing to make things up? What weapons did we give the Serbs. Have you been to that part of the world? I have.
we as in the US and other nato members wrote the treaty and they got the largest stock of weapons ever wonder why we have all of these romania kids here?
False.
Aandwrobert, do you plan on continuing to make things up? What weapons did we give the Serbs. Have you been to that part of the world? I have.
we as in the US and other nato members wrote the treaty and they got the largest stock of weapons ever wonder why we have all of these romania kids here?
mike22cha
Active Member
1journeyman, what do you consider victory? Eventually we will have to pull out unless you suggest making it join the union which I know America has no intentions of that what so ever. We can deystroy all the terrorists over in the Middle East and there ideas and hatred towards America will live on to the next generation.
windmill
Member
I'm out of my element here, I dislike politics. But I can't help chime in.
The vast majority of America wants soldiers out of Iraq, the vast majority of Iraq wants US soldiers out too, heck most the world wants US soldiers out of Iraq. The Kurds and the oil companies are probably the only ones enjoying the occupation. But our President wants soldiers there. For what reason? To eliminate terrorism at the source? I can understand that and can even support that. But it appears to me that by occupying a terrorist area we just fan the flames. We fill the terrorists with a greater resolve to destroy us because we occupy their land. Instead of fighting terrorists at their home, why can't we wait until they "step outside" figuratively speaking.
Like I said, I dislike politics and don't pay much attention to them, the above text might reflect that.
The vast majority of America wants soldiers out of Iraq, the vast majority of Iraq wants US soldiers out too, heck most the world wants US soldiers out of Iraq. The Kurds and the oil companies are probably the only ones enjoying the occupation. But our President wants soldiers there. For what reason? To eliminate terrorism at the source? I can understand that and can even support that. But it appears to me that by occupying a terrorist area we just fan the flames. We fill the terrorists with a greater resolve to destroy us because we occupy their land. Instead of fighting terrorists at their home, why can't we wait until they "step outside" figuratively speaking.
Like I said, I dislike politics and don't pay much attention to them, the above text might reflect that.
1journeyman
Active Member
Victory to me will be when the Iraqi's are able to:
*Continue to have democratic elections
*Protect their borders
*Protect their citizens
We've done it time and time again. Japan, Gemrnay, etc. are shining examples of "success".
*Continue to have democratic elections
*Protect their borders
*Protect their citizens
We've done it time and time again. Japan, Gemrnay, etc. are shining examples of "success".
jmick
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Victory to me will be when the Iraqi's are able to:
*Continue to have democratic elections
*Protect their borders
*Protect their citizens
We've done it time and time again. Japan, Gemrnay, etc. are shining examples of "success".
Those are fine examples but are not comparable to Iraq and the middle-east. Germany is a white Christian nation, which made it much easier for the Germans to identity with the allies, which helped post WWII reconstruction. Japan had some western influence before WWII and after it became very westernized and modernized into a western style economy (I’d venture to say that both countries gained in the long run).
Iraq is a different animal, they don’t seem as open to western ideals and as a whole, the middle-east views the west with much disdain and suspicion. Also, aside from oil they lack the resources for a strong economy, have lots of poverty, poor infrastructure, many ethnic issues all of these will make your victory near impossible…short term perhaps but long term no.
Victory to me will be when the Iraqi's are able to:
*Continue to have democratic elections
*Protect their borders
*Protect their citizens
We've done it time and time again. Japan, Gemrnay, etc. are shining examples of "success".
Those are fine examples but are not comparable to Iraq and the middle-east. Germany is a white Christian nation, which made it much easier for the Germans to identity with the allies, which helped post WWII reconstruction. Japan had some western influence before WWII and after it became very westernized and modernized into a western style economy (I’d venture to say that both countries gained in the long run).
Iraq is a different animal, they don’t seem as open to western ideals and as a whole, the middle-east views the west with much disdain and suspicion. Also, aside from oil they lack the resources for a strong economy, have lots of poverty, poor infrastructure, many ethnic issues all of these will make your victory near impossible…short term perhaps but long term no.
scgator
Member
I'm by no means an expert, but....how are the oil companies getting rich? The reason that prices are so high is the refining process. Oil is at +/- $60 per barrel. World production is on par with or above the level it has always been. The problem is that our refineries, and others, are still damaged/underproducing AND demand is and has been increasing for some time. My grandfather worked for EXXON. I asked him about it and was suprised to find out that a lot, if not most, of the refineries are NOT owned by the oil companies. Only 8 of the top 50 refiners are owned by "big oil" (DOE 2005 annual report www.eia.doe.gov)
It's very scary to hear our youth parrotting some very badly spun "facts". Are we teaching this stuff in our schools or is it coming from their parents? I'm not attacking. I believe these type of debates are good for learning. Say what you want, but be ready to defend it. Don't forget that EVERYONE has preconceptions, their agenda, etc. the process of extracting the facts from the "spin" is what sharpens the mind.
It's very scary to hear our youth parrotting some very badly spun "facts". Are we teaching this stuff in our schools or is it coming from their parents? I'm not attacking. I believe these type of debates are good for learning. Say what you want, but be ready to defend it. Don't forget that EVERYONE has preconceptions, their agenda, etc. the process of extracting the facts from the "spin" is what sharpens the mind.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
...
Iraq is a different animal, they don’t seem as open to western ideals and as a whole, the middle-east views the west with much disdain and suspicion. Also, aside from oil they lack the resources for a strong economy, have lots of poverty, poor infrastructure, many ethnic issues all of these will make your victory near impossible…short term perhaps but long term no.
Iraq is much more educated and "secular" than other countries in the region, although your point is taken. It is a different region.
The infrastructure however isn't a good point. Germany had virtually no infrastructure after the Allied bombings for years.
Culturally I think both germany and Japan were a lot different than you think. Especially Japan.
...
Iraq is a different animal, they don’t seem as open to western ideals and as a whole, the middle-east views the west with much disdain and suspicion. Also, aside from oil they lack the resources for a strong economy, have lots of poverty, poor infrastructure, many ethnic issues all of these will make your victory near impossible…short term perhaps but long term no.
Iraq is much more educated and "secular" than other countries in the region, although your point is taken. It is a different region.
The infrastructure however isn't a good point. Germany had virtually no infrastructure after the Allied bombings for years.
Culturally I think both germany and Japan were a lot different than you think. Especially Japan.
1journeyman
Active Member
Jmick said:
petjunkie
Active Member
Wow, this thread got way off topic fast. Wasn't it about body armor vs. bullets and guns? I would think they are very close for importance considering how many deaths are due to bombings instead of shootings. I think our government was very deceptive about the war in general, I really enjoy how everything that has been untrue or bad about this war comes out later as "yeah we did know that" a few months later. WMD, resistance, length, cost, etc. We can't control it so we throw troops and money at it and fire anyone in charge who disagrees or can't fix it. And yeah hasn't Taliban stepped in up in Afghanistan and pretty much taken over with no coverage in the press? Terrorism is up for recruiting and attacks and the majority of Iraqs hate us at this point and the government we set up because they feel more unsafe now. This is very unfortunate as we had a chance in the beginning. Now it's going to be a very hard long road to fix and requires much more out of the Iraq's than they seem willing to give.
mike22cha
Active Member
Trust me scgator, they are not teaching that in any schools. 1journeyman, are those goals for victory the same as America. I'd appreciate if someone could show me where the govn. has set up goals, like a site or some proof to them setting goals. Yes Bush has told us about setting up a democracy, but that can't happen until all the people of Iraq want a democracy. It isn't going to help sending in more or less troops. We're dealing with a whole new battlefield. Just like how Britian was unprepared for the minutemen and the American Revolution's army's tatics, we are also unprepared for these terrorist tatics of gorrila(I don't know how to spell that word, sorry) warfare.
I'm open minded so if anyone can back up there statements I'd appreciate that. We can't just through around a bunch of ideas without proof.
Oh and if you think I'm a little kid who doesn't know nothing, yes I didn't serve in the armed forces, but even though that does inspire patriotism in the hearts of our troops, it doesn't mean that the rest of America isn't patriotic. I took a Duke TIP course, taught by a college proffesor, about global politics and international relations, so even though not through a soldiers eyes, I can still see the world. We all have different perspectives and who are we to say others are wrong?
Scgator, that generation that you say are "parotting" some bad facts, are going to be running our govn. one day, and my guess is we are all "parroting" something we heard from a democratic or republican influenced news source.
Just my 2 cents
I'm open minded so if anyone can back up there statements I'd appreciate that. We can't just through around a bunch of ideas without proof.
Oh and if you think I'm a little kid who doesn't know nothing, yes I didn't serve in the armed forces, but even though that does inspire patriotism in the hearts of our troops, it doesn't mean that the rest of America isn't patriotic. I took a Duke TIP course, taught by a college proffesor, about global politics and international relations, so even though not through a soldiers eyes, I can still see the world. We all have different perspectives and who are we to say others are wrong?
Scgator, that generation that you say are "parotting" some bad facts, are going to be running our govn. one day, and my guess is we are all "parroting" something we heard from a democratic or republican influenced news source.
Just my 2 cents
legion
Member
The issue is not which situation is relative to another, the issue is the use at all. I DO NOT deny them as a buffer. You can use religion to justify almost anything. Saddam was doing his will(or maybe gods will) and the US did its will and Christ told us not to kill. His use is clearly unjustified, are us is slightly grayer. But I tell you what alot of people in Japan died from those bombs...(civilians).
We used terrorism in a war environment! It had exactly that impact..period. And that was what we intended.
The whole idea of mutually assured destruction is juvenile. Its just one of those things you wish we could uninvent...but atom splitting has practical uses.
My biggest peev is if you invade a country, have a reason. If this was desert storm we would not be debating and the gov. should have removed him and set up the democracy then. But we caved under pressure, this time we made a more rash desicion. When they invaded kuwait, it was totally justified to rub him out. You cannot let countries conquer others. It just didn't work out and to much time past.
We used terrorism in a war environment! It had exactly that impact..period. And that was what we intended.
The whole idea of mutually assured destruction is juvenile. Its just one of those things you wish we could uninvent...but atom splitting has practical uses.
My biggest peev is if you invade a country, have a reason. If this was desert storm we would not be debating and the gov. should have removed him and set up the democracy then. But we caved under pressure, this time we made a more rash desicion. When they invaded kuwait, it was totally justified to rub him out. You cannot let countries conquer others. It just didn't work out and to much time past.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
Trust me scgator, they are not teaching that in any schools. 1journeyman, are those goals for victory the same as America. I'd appreciate if someone could show me where the govn. has set up goals, like a site or some proof to them setting goals. Yes Bush has told us about setting up a democracy, but that can't happen until all the people of Iraq want a democracy. It isn't going to help sending in more or less troops. We're dealing with a whole new battlefield. Just like how Britian was unprepared for the minutemen and the American Revolution's army's tatics, we are also unprepared for these terrorist tatics of gorrila(I don't know how to spell that word, sorry) warfare.
I'm open minded so if anyone can back up there statements I'd appreciate that. We can't just through around a bunch of ideas without proof.
Oh and if you think I'm a little kid who doesn't know nothing, yes I didn't serve in the armed forces, but even though that does inspire patriotism in the hearts of our troops, it doesn't mean that the rest of America isn't patriotic. I took a Duke TIP course, taught by a college proffesor, about global politics and international relations, so even though not through a soldiers eyes, I can still see the world. We all have different perspectives and who are we to say others are wrong?
Scgator, that generation that you say are "parotting" some bad facts, are going to be running our govn. one day, and my guess is we are all "parroting" something we heard from a democratic or republican influenced news source.
Just my 2 cents
Mike, those goals are mine. The Gov. position is "victory". That's what victory means to me
The parroting remark that was made was directed at one of the posters here who is posting false information. Not opinion, but actual false information.
Trust me scgator, they are not teaching that in any schools. 1journeyman, are those goals for victory the same as America. I'd appreciate if someone could show me where the govn. has set up goals, like a site or some proof to them setting goals. Yes Bush has told us about setting up a democracy, but that can't happen until all the people of Iraq want a democracy. It isn't going to help sending in more or less troops. We're dealing with a whole new battlefield. Just like how Britian was unprepared for the minutemen and the American Revolution's army's tatics, we are also unprepared for these terrorist tatics of gorrila(I don't know how to spell that word, sorry) warfare.
I'm open minded so if anyone can back up there statements I'd appreciate that. We can't just through around a bunch of ideas without proof.
Oh and if you think I'm a little kid who doesn't know nothing, yes I didn't serve in the armed forces, but even though that does inspire patriotism in the hearts of our troops, it doesn't mean that the rest of America isn't patriotic. I took a Duke TIP course, taught by a college proffesor, about global politics and international relations, so even though not through a soldiers eyes, I can still see the world. We all have different perspectives and who are we to say others are wrong?
Scgator, that generation that you say are "parotting" some bad facts, are going to be running our govn. one day, and my guess is we are all "parroting" something we heard from a democratic or republican influenced news source.
Just my 2 cents
Mike, those goals are mine. The Gov. position is "victory". That's what victory means to me
The parroting remark that was made was directed at one of the posters here who is posting false information. Not opinion, but actual false information.