OT: war in Iraq

foulbrew

Member
Who would have guess this would degrade into politics:D .
You see waht I ment about politicians graying up the issue. This is about right and wrong, not Bush vs Clinton, or Democrats vs Republicans (both of which I consider to be minorities... i will be running for cover shortly). There is a clear moral issue here that folks are using propaganda to blur.
If not us, who? If not now, when? If this isn't evil what is?
 

radioactive

Member
radioactive - with good interests at heart, i'm going to agree to disagree with you. as for my part, in the past year, i've bought a $30k car, a $175k townhouse, spent $3k on an aquarium only to tear it down becuase of the previously listed debt and i eat out just about every night (mainly becuase i'm lazy and cant cook). Hey I'm 23, i'm doing my part to help. I hope Bush's cuts help the rest of the country pump some money back into the economy.
great job !!!!! that is quite an accomplishment at 23 -
take some equity from your townhouse at 5.12% and start your tank back up .
I have a few things here and there , making ends meat sort a speak .... one thing the music biz pays pretty well .... :) but saving my cash ... just in case ....
excellent debate .... :)
 

jrb384

Member
I spent 6 years in the USMC infantry training for a war in the sand that never occured during my enlistment. Alot of my friends and fellow marines that are still active will possibly lose their lives in this war.
I dont completely agree with all aspects of the bush administration argument as to WHY we should go to war, but overall I agree that saddam needs to take a dirt nap. If war is the only way, then mount up.
Each nation in the UN has their own agenda and interests, every nation has interest in a post saddam IRAQ. But what else has to happen to convence people this man needs to go? how many people must die?
OK OK so killing his own people, ect ect doesnt do it for people. Lets try this avenue then, what if there was proof he was killing animals, burning trees down, and littering. What if he ate a chicken leg, while wearing his fur coat sitting on his leather couch with his feet kicked up on his red wood table. Would that sway some of you ? i'm willing to bet alot of you would be outraged and would be screaming to PUSH THE BUTTON...
jb
 

trompet3

Member
jrb384 - right on the money! Here is a letter that PETA sent to Yasser Arafat in a month that 21 Israelis (and one donkey) were killed in terrorist attacks and 127 injured. They don't beg to stop the human slaughter, but rather to find a different delivery system for their bombs. Incredible.
Your Excellency:
I am writing from an organization dedicated to fighting animal abuse around the world. We have received many calls and letters from people shocked at the bombing in Jerusalem on January 26 in which a donkey, laden with explosives, was intentionally blown up.
All nations behave abominably in many ways when they are fighting their enemies, and animals are always caught in the crossfire. The U.S. Army abandoned thousands of loyal service dogs in Vietnam. Al-Qaeda and the British government have both used animals in hideously cruel biological weaponry tests. We watched on television as stray cats in your own compound fled as best they could from the Israeli bulldozers.
Animals claim no nation. They are in perpetual involuntary servitude to all humankind, and although they pose no threat and own no weapons, human beings always win in the undeclared war against them. For animals, there is no Geneva Convention and no peace treaty—just our mercy.
If you have the opportunity, will you please add to your burdens my request that you appeal to all those who listen to you to leave the animals out of this conflict?
We send you sincere wishes of peace.
Very truly yours,
Ingrid Newkirk
President, PETA
 

wrassecal

Active Member
Here is some more history - ALL wars are fought for one reason only and that reason is POWER. Now power can be gotten by taking resources like land, oil, gold whatever and it can be gotten through religious means. It all equals power. Who do you want to have the power? The middle east needs a little uproar because the terrorist networks are operating and funded through many of those countries. Many middle eastern countries are giving terrorists resources in the name of religion and they are gaining power. Meanwhile us freedom loving US citizens were spending our money and becoming more arrogant and naive. Then 9-11. it's a wakeup call. We just weren't with the world plan. Now we have to. Remember we still have troops in Germany and France (how long ago was that war?) and we need to have them scattered in the middle east too. The UN is a tragedy (re: trompet3's post)......and speaking of religion if any here are of the christian faith lets not forget that revelations speaks of a one world government (the UN?) and one world money (eurodollar?)As far as the economy goes 9-11 only excaberated a huge problem after the dotcoms became dotbombs.
On a lighter and very sarcastic note...what's with all these celebrities spouting off against war? Isn't it the domain of the musician to lead us in anti war protest. These people aren't even coming up with any great songs to mark this for their generation.... come on sing along with me....It's 1 - 2 - 3 what are we fightin for? Don't ask me I don't give a d@#n, the next stop is Iraq then Iran (well it rhymed)
If anyone likes their history of war spiced up with great humor and insight I highly recommend Eddie Izzard's Dress to Kill
 

wrassecal

Active Member

Originally posted by jrb384
I spent 6 years in the USMC infantry training for a war in the sand that never occured during my enlistment. Alot of my friends and fellow marines that are still active will possibly lose their lives in this war jb

I have a son and a step-son in the Marines, son in Kuwait and step-son in Okinawa. As a mom I'm terrified
As an American I'm prouder of them than I could ever be and I thank you also for your service.
 

nybyrne

Member
I was a member of the Air Force during Enduring Freedom and I was in the Army during Gulf war 1 I have made a lot of sacrifices for my country. I have spent months in places like Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait, UAE, Iraq and many others away from home and my wife; I have lived in the worst condition imaginable, I have eaten the worst foods, I sweated through the hottest weather and shivered through the coldest rain and for what? To give all of you the right to

[hr]
and complain about a war that you will sit back in your chair and watch it on CNN. As you make your comments on the war and bash the President I want you to ask yourself what have I done for my country? What gives me the right other than where I was born to make any kind of a negative comment? Just because you aren’t a republican does not mean you should disrespect the President. It is really hard for all of you liberals to follow a President who does what is best for the Country and is an honest man. Someone who brought back HONOR and RESPECT to the office of the President. I know it is hard for you to understand these words but those of us who have served live by them. When I sit back and read some of the post where people say the Bush is week or he has another agenda it makes me sick. Do you not realize that Saddam has had 12 years and 16 resolutions to disarm and he has done nothing! Instead of saying Bush wants to go to war why not say Saddam wants war? He is the one who refuses to disarm? Do any of you remember the USS Cole or the Embassies that were bombed? What did former president Clinton due when all of these things went on? NOTHING not one thing! Now that we have a president who has some balls and is willing to back up his words “you are either with us or with them” the liberals are in an uproar. How can anybody in their right mind say it is not time to go to war? Don’t you think if we would of done something every other time Osma bombed something 9/11 could have been prevented?? If someone breaks into your house and you kill him or her with a shotgun and the story is on the news don’t you think the next person who wants to rob your house is going to think twice?
Then there was the comment that “ so are you saying Clinton had to clean up for the useless ex president Bush!!!! With that said, there will be someone to clean up after every president right? We are approaching our 2nd war with father and son, quite a coincidence. But in between that we were all enjoying vacations and lots of $$$$...
I guess it is hard for a Liberal to see the truth. While you enjoyed your vacation and $$$ the military and the department of defense was cut more than any other time in history.
Clinton also had very little to due with the boom. While most American voters consistently give presidents credit for good times, and blame them for bad times, any economist will tell you that the president usually has very little influence over the course of the U.S. economy. That course is mainly dictated by cyclical and international forces beyond the president's control, as well as by monetary policy, which is set not by the White House but by the Federal Reserve Board. Mr. Clinton has found it easy to take advantage of this popular misconception because the boom of the 1990s has coincided with the five and three quarter years he has been in office, even though the recovery actually started under President George Bush. But the economic growth, high employment and surging stock markets of the last few years have more to do with low international inflation, the strong dollar, and the remarkable transformation of the U.S. private sector that began under President Ronald Reagan, than with any action initiated by Mr. Clinton.
If Mr. Clinton had had his way, the economy today would almost certainly be in worse shape, and the balanced budget for which he likes to take credit would still be a long way off.
So sit back in your chairs and turn on CNN and watch us. We are the ones who give all for our Country. We are the ones who get chills every time the National Anthem is played. We are the ones willing to sacrifice our lives so you have the security and freedom to carry on with your way of life. GOD BLESSES AMERICA AND ALL OF US WHO SERVE.
 

jrb384

Member
nybryne,
as a vet I understand why your upset. my 1st reaction is who is the slimy twinkle toed communist peckersucker that posted that garbage...BUT
what seperates our nation from all others is the the civil liberties we enjoy, what seperates you from other americans is your willing to lay down your life so others may enjoy those rights. Like it or not, liberal view points are often part of those rights and will always be there. I am outraged about some of the posts, or the woman that turns her back on her nations flag, but I also understand that part of the sacrifices we have made with our service are to ensure people have those rights. That being said, i have a few quotes for you. i cant remember exactly how they go but
1- freedom has a price the proteced will never know
2- although I may not agree with what your saying, i would die so that you can say it.
and what the hell, good old jack nicholson. ' you want us on that wall you need us on that wall'.
jb
 

broncofish

Active Member
"It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an artificually induced psychosis of war hysteria and nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear."
—General Douglas MacArthur, Speech, May 15, 1951
"Never has there been a good war or a bad peace."
—Benjamin Franklin
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
—Albert Einstein
"Three of the greatest minds in recent history, but yet we follow the lead of an ignorant, uppercrust C student from Yale...Bush is an ignorant beast, but if he says attack I have to obey because I took that oath, but a war with out cause troubles my soul. The idea of millions of innocent civilians dying or being refugees so this a$$ can keep his political life alive keeps me awake at night."
-Broncofish
 

entice59

Active Member
i am like most people here, A part of us says "yes" and a part of us says "no". Two of my best friends were just activated last week. One was just starting his new job at state farm and one was just about to start his freshmen year in Davis in March. Just after finishing bootcamp and finishing their heavy equipments operator training. I havent seen any of them since November. Just when i was about to watch a movie we've been waiting for to watch, Daredevil (we are big comic book fans, me and my friends buy comics almost every week), he gets activated the day before we are going to watch it, plans change. All i said was "Your not going to see daredevil? your going to san diego? when? *replies tomorrow and will be back in a month or two hopefully* I said "well that sucks, i'll see you in two months, write to me and tell me how its going and give me a call when you come back, alright bye."
geez i didnt really notice how serious it was until i heard from my other friend he might not come back in a year, and now this war thing is probably going to happen, i hope those werent the last words i say to my best friend :(.
As for the war, to me, i dont think we will ever resolve anything until sadam and his sons are killed. Hopefully this will end quickly if we do go to war.
I dont know how many people here listen to howard stern in the morning, but i listen to him when ever i get the chance. He has a lot of interesting ideas about the war, saying it will end quickly and how the french and the germans are basically just trying to save their investment in iraq or how no one really takes anything seriously until they are attacked. Since he isnt really creditable, most of the times, i do agree with his most of his opinions on war.
Hopefully the war will end soon*assumming we will go to war* and everything will be alright.
 

jarre

Member
What an interesting read this has been. I'll make my comments with an effort to reduce the redundancy.
1) The UN has reached a point no different then the League of Nations do to its inability to enforce anything.
2) Hitler accomplished taking most of Europe by playing a shell game full of lies backed by Chamberlain, Kennedy's and many others appeasement policies...ring a bell??
3) Only one president has directly done something about a rouge leader like Sadam that was Reagan. And it worked wonderfully!! Have you seen Muammar Kaddafi rattle his saber in the last decade? In other words, you don’t pacify a bully – when he directly threatens you - you kick his ass.
4) Take a moment and consider what you would do if Sadam was your child and he continued to behave so badly. Bet you would take decisive action! And if you didn’t I’d be willing to bet law enforcement would.
5) Whether we like it or not, this country is the only country in the world capable of being this planet’s police. Unlike the Roman’s (as I’ve heard others argue) we don’t take other peoples land when we fight for them or for the people’s liberation. We are the only country in history that has not furthered its growth by waging war (since the Indians). This country has made its' mistakes, but this country grows and matures from them – no other country can make that claim!
6) I’ve heard the argument that a war would cause more terrorist attacks. I will agree – it will. Personally it only makes since to me that if you are facing the evitable you do it with your eyes open.
7) If we don’t do something about Sadam Hussein, Bin Laden, Al-Qaeda, Kim Jong II, and other terrorist organizations then who will, they’re parents?
Question: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend

[hr]
?
Answer: Nobody knows, it’s never been done!
:eek:
 

goldrush

Member
Jarre, Check your history.Chamberlain wanted to stop Hitler in his tracks long before the holaucost. He was thrown out of office for such radical thinking. "Hitler hasn't done anything yet". We should learn from history,not repeat it.
 

jarre

Member
Ok Goldrush I've checked.
Chamberlain, (Arthur) Neville (1869-1940), British prime minister (1937-40), known for his appeasement policy in the immediate pre-World War II period.
...
His policy of appeasement toward Adolf Hitler's Germany culminated in the Munich Pact of September 1938, after which Chamberlain returned home proclaiming “peace for our time.” Later he recognized the failure of his policy and vowed support for Poland. After Germany's invasion of the country, Chamberlain led Britain into the war against the aggressor.
Looks like I was right!!!!!!!!!! Guess we should learn from history! Appeasement doesn't work!
 

leigh

Active Member
what about a fourth poll option for standing behind out president and his advisors and trusting their judgement to lead us into war if that is what turns out to be best for our country and the world.
and ps, thanks those of you who have served our country through the years and now. we appreciate it.
 

jarre

Member
Well, it sounds to me like he acted just like the France and Germany and other UN members are acting now.
This paragraph makes my point:
"There is just one passage from a recent communication, which is dated the 30th August, which I should like to quote, because it show how easily the final clash might have been avoided had there been the least desire on the part of the German Government to arrive at a peaceful settlement."
The key work here is Desire
. There had been absolutely no evidence of desire with Hitler as is the case with Sadam Hussein.
So quite frankly if you have desire to avoid war at all cost while the other doesn't have the desire you'll get yourself killed! In other words, let's stand with our chin out even if you do have your fist doubled and drawn back. All with the thinking that it shows we are better men because we only strike in defense. Well, tell that bull to the dead families of the twin towers, USS Cole, etc. There is a fine line between being better men and being a fool.
That's my thought on it. :eek:)
 

goldrush

Member
Jarre,after reading more of what we are saying to each other,I see we are in total agreement,just expressing it differently. Leigh,I'm with you 100% also. God bless the men and women that are now and have in the past preserved and protected our right to have discussions like this.My prayers are that each and every one of them come home safely.
 

slick

Active Member
My question is when does it stop? I mean there is ALWAYS going to be some "bad guy" somewhere. We as a nation can't afford to stop every bad person that may threaten lives. I heard the other day on the news that our nations debt is the highest it's ever been. Second highest was under George Bush senior!! I'm not bias toward Dem or Rep so it's not like that. Yeah I voted for Bush in the election but I will say this he will NOT be getting my vote again.
 
Top