OT: war in Iraq

[jarre]

Hey Slick! You make a very good point - when will it stop?
Well, frankly I think the answer to that is rather simple - it won't until we as a human race mature to a level of existance far more superior in nature.
When our children stop calling other children names will be a clear sign that the human race is maturing. Until then we have to trudge the road to happy destiny and teach responsiblity by accepting responsiblity for our actions. And, I am of the belief that thoughts are actions too.
Holding ourselves and others accountable for their actions is an important step toward responsibility and is a step that has been and continues to be deluded in this country and thoughtout the world. It all has to start on a personal level before it can grow to a national and international level.
We have to get to the level where skin color, national origin, religion, etc have no other meaning then that of being from Georgia or Florida. It is what it is - nothing more.
I bleed red, my soul has no visible color. And is the only criteria I know of for being a part of the human race. It doesn't make me better or worse than any other member. It is time for all of us around the world to accept this fact and move on to bigger and better things.
It just goes to show that the human race is still in it's infancy.
How is that for an opinion. lol

 

[drkegel]

I don't believe the United Nations is capable of anything other than prolonging the inevitable at this point. There have been 17 so-called "resolutions" in attempting to get Iraq to disarm. And seventeen "resolutions" later, he still hasn't. He continues to make a mockery of the UN, and the UN continues to allow Iraq to do so.
I've made a similar arguement on this (and other) boards in the past: a law (resolution) is only as strong as the enforcement behind it. Laws (resolutions) are not negotiable. You either follow it or you don't. If you don't, you should be prepared to face the consequences.
I submit other arguments as well: Hussein in my mind, in the Hitler of this generation. Hitler killed millions of his own civilians, Hussein has killed thousands. True, he hasn't set up death camps, but when you're killing innocent people does it really matter how you do it? Hussein has even been said to use human shields to attempt to protect military installations! Hitler invaded many nations (in my mind, one is too many), Hussein has done the same: Iran and Kuwait. At the time of Hitler, the League of Nations (the US wasn't a member), sat idlely by appeasing Hitler, as he grew his army and technologies. The UN today still wants "peace", but at what cost? How many more innocent Kurds are going to die while the rest of the world wants "peace'? The UN sent 80 (80!) weapons inspectors to look for evidence Iraq is complying. The LON sent 5000 "inspectors" into Germany after WWI, and they couldn't stop Hitler. What makes anyone today think that 80 people are going to somehow find all this evidence when 5000 couldn't do the same task?
It is a sad, unfortunate state of affiars, but there are evil people in this world - Hussein, the people in charge of Enron and WorldCom, among others, are evil people in my mind. And among these evil people, there aren't many who listen to reason and pleas for peace - they only listen to the sound of a gun.
And I do not think this war is about getting cheap oil. If all we wanted was cheap oil, we would go to the UN and have them drop the sanctions, and pass new resolutions so we can get the oil. That's the easiest way to get it! Just ask the French.
To those that say the US has all these weapons - your're right. But the UN hasn't said we can't have them. The UN has said Iraq can't have them. If you don't want the US to have them (which BTW - we are destroying stockpiles of them daily), then go to the UN to get them banned here too.
I feel very strongly about this. I'm sure there are many out there that feel jsut as strongly, both in favor and against. I just needed to get this off my chest.

 

[drkegel]

As an engineering student, the website http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.html provides some of the largest amount of BS ever in print!
If you want a much more factual diagnosis of the events of Sept. 11, 2001, I can suggest many programs done by TLC and the Discovery Channel, not to mention the many interviews done with people who actually designed and built it.
It's offensive to me that someone would ever believe that is possible to account for EVERYTHING in any building design. The idea that the intensity of the fires which weakened teh trusses could have ever been fully taken into account is an abosolute atrocity. It is quite clear to anyone with an engineering background (particularly a heat-transfer, thermdynamics focus) that the "information" given on that website is anything other than false.
There is a reason firemen say "Never trust a truss." Becuase they weaken a HUGE amount when exposed to heat.
Sorry, but misinformation needs to be dispelled before it is spread and taken as fact.

 

[wrassecal]

Originally posted by DrKegel

To those that say the US has all these weapons - your're right. But the UN hasn't said we can't have them. The UN has said Iraq can't have them. If you don't want the US to have them (which BTW - we are destroying stockpiles of them daily), then go to the UN to get them banned here too.
I agree with everything you said but the above quote. Do you really want to UN to have the power to tell the US to bann weapons? I think the UN should be dismantled in disgrace or at the very least given up as an experiment that did not work.

 

[radioactive]

jrb384
have you checked consumer confidence levels lately ? biggest decline in 20yrs - came out yesterday - I hope if we do this it ends quickly and get back to focusing on future issues .. good to be pro- active instead of reactive...
Jack Nicholson is also sitting on the beach in Malibu right now . He has no worries of unemployment and or companies folding left and right ..
I am concerned about families losing everything they have worked for and futures for the younger generation ...
This issue can be debated for the next 10yrs and everyone will have their own opinions . we will see how it works out during the next election ...

 

[reef fool]

I hate talking politics but,
Thank GOD that Gore isn't running things! Or Clinton for that matter!
With that said -
I voted for Bush, I back him 100% to this point, and I think any of these spineless

[hr]
that protest our freedom and can't see the need to get rid of Hussein and Bin Laden, should move to Iraq for a few months and see how those poor people actually live. As for the little Bit#@ that turns her back to the flag during the national anthem, She should be attached to the first bomb dropped!
If you hate this country...GET THE F@#K OUT!
God bless all of our troops and those of our allies. Get this necessary task done as quickly and efficiently as possible. And most of all, return safe!
My opinion as I am entitled,
Frank

 

[broncofish]

Reef Fool I don't get offended by much but you just did it. Hey how about this I am a "Spineless Protester" , but I also served in Afghanistan, Saudi, and continue to serve. Hating a Jacka$$ president who stands more for a police state than a place of Freedom does not mean you hate America. The day when that kid is forced to face the flag is the day I leave the military, and this country. I will put my life on the line so he can have those freedoms, and that is why I joined. Do I think it is disrespectful, HECK YES, but it his FREEDOM, and I will fight so he can keep it, but I don't think stealing oil supllies, and causing a rift in an already unstable part of the world has anything to do with American freedom. Pray for our troops and the 100's of thousands of innocent Iraqis that will be killed, but please stop supporting Bush, I want an economy to return to when I retire or seperate from the military.

 

[reef fool]

Broncofish,
Let me clarify my idea of a "spineless protester". Not those who do not want to see this war happen and protest that,(I would rather not see a war either), but the protesters who continuously bash this country and it's freedoms and then turn around and live here and enjoy those same freedoms as well as other luxuries of this great country. I fully believe in expressing your disagreement with something going on in our govt. or country. My problem is with the hipocritical scum that live here, but hate the US.
As for a kid that turns his or her back on the flag, it is wrong and shouldn't happen as long as you live here. Turn your back on Bush, not a problem. But turn your back on the flag, especially during our anthem, and you are turning your back on our entire country and it's freedoms and ideals!
I respect your opinions and you personally for defending our country even though you don't agree with it's actions or policies. But screw anyone who disrespects the greatest nation in the world as a whole and continues to live here enjoying it's freedoms.
Bash me some more if you wish, I will not argue with you on this anymore.
Sorry to offend you,
Frank

 

[seabry]

I may be Canadian, but I know that war is not fun. People die and if you think USA should go to war think of it this way, you indirectly are huhrting some ones family....so you don't see eye to eye, so people have secrete (in this case a big secret) but if they were going to bomb they would have done so already.

 

[wamp]

No need to get mad about other peoples opinions here. You can't agree with everyone and thats just the way it is. You don't have to like their opinions eitheir, you just have to understand that as strongly you feel about your ideas, they feel the same about theirs. You'll never change their mind, or prove them wrong. It's the way they feel. The only right person is me anyway so you can all give up!

Back to the debates... No hitting below the belt or name calling.

 

[slick]

You have some serious issues here. First of all america is about being free. I agree that the girl should not turn her back to the flag. It does make me mad but it's her choice.
posted by reef fool
Thank GOD that Gore isn't running things! Or Clinton for that matter!
Yeah I don't like it when my 401k is doing good either.
posted by reef fool
As for the little Bit#@ that turns her back to the flag during the national anthem, She should be attached to the first bomb dropped!
That is really mature. What a good way to represent an american attitude. (Big thumbs up to you)

 

[radioactive]

but yet we follow the lead of an ignorant, uppercrust C student from Yale...Bush is an ignorant beast,
I agree 100% . very well put .... by the way , where is mr. ---- C . Never hear a word from this great leader ..lol

 

[reef fool]

Slick,
posted by reef fool
As for the little Bit#@ that turns her back to the flag during the national anthem, She should be attached to the first bomb dropped!
You are right, after reading it again, this is a harsh and immature statement. As you read, I don't feel there is an excuse for her actions., but it was wrong to word it that way. I can't take it back since 100+ people probably already read it, But I do wish I didn't post it.

 

[slick]

Well I have to say thanks for being a stand up guy.
I found this info and thought it was interesting. Also check out the nuclear weapons and waste section.
http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/water.asp

 

[mikegronholz]

So many people have so many opinions. I have tried SOOOOOO hard to stay out of this debate because of my current "profession".... BUT:
Topic 1 - The Economy
No one man (no matter who he is) can change the economy as president. Bush senior inherited Regan's economic good and bad. Clinton inherited Bush's good and bad. The boom that happened in the early nineties, did Clinton do that, there is no way !!! He couldn't get anything through the House and Senate. Noone would cross party lines. What Bush, Jr. has now is the good and bad left behind from Clinton. The economy began to slip after the election bacause for the 1st time in OUR lifetime, we the people saw instability in our government. No one in the world knew ?!?!?!?! So, we all freaked out. As for the economy today, we are shifting financial power again. In the early 90's, the power shifted from the large financial institutions to the little guys (dot coms) because of Clinton's new economic ideas. They were good then, but lacked long term planning. So the shift went back to the large institutions. Now, after 9-11, the power is shifting again. Interest rates are at an all time low. We the people have more buying power than ever. After 9-11, the large financial institutions (namely CitiCorp) has spent billions rebuilding downtown NYC. Who is this money going to ? John Doe Construction, Whoever Builders, and the Arcitect. If you were these guys, would you tight fist the money ? Of course. Some time will pass, and the money will flow all the way down to us. One of the biggest problems we are facing now, is all of the .com fallout is catching us. Industry learned that fresh ideas and us college grads, like coffee, are best in moderation. So they are out looking for middle management, but those middle management guys are the fallout from the .coms. So we are in a viscious cycle. As much debate as this will start, most of the world revolves around the IT market. When IT guys are in high demand, everyone is in high demand. Give Bush's policy a chance. He has cut taxes to encourage spending. Good or bad, let the dust settle. God would have had to loan us money himself if Gore had tried this !!! He would have been asking Clinton what to do this whole time !!!
Topic 2 - The Middle East
My biggest complaint is he has a little too much personal interest in the matter, BUT, his advisors keep him in check !!! Colin Powell is, in my opinion, the perfect example of "speak softly and carry a big stick" !!! Will war break out ? Well, what is your definition of war ? Technically, Congress never ended the original war in the mid-east. We currently run an air campaign now, just bombs are not deployed. Will we invade the city ? I think it is the only way Saddam will come out, BUT, we will lose all kinds of support from neighboring countries. The biggest concern is not getting Saddam out, it is WHO TAKES CONTROL WHEN HE'S GONE ?
Topic 3 - The Military
I can only saythis one way. If you are not currently in one of the services, or you are not a previous member of the services, please do not blow hot air about things you have no idea about. I am not saying anyone has (in this post), but those of us that are there (or have been there) speak from line of sight, not from illusions.
Just remember my friends, war is not pretty or fair and many prices will be paid for it. I have friends in places that would amaze you doing things that you could never imagine, using air compressors to blow sand off thier food. Whether you like Bush, Jr. or not, remember the military acts without question. Support them if you cannot support him !!!
Semper Fi,
Sgt. G
USMC

 

[brianf01]

The When will it stop question is good, but the problem is, you can love peace all you want, and then someone will bomb you. You can have festivals and protests, because it woud be wonderful without war, but if you put all the money from military into education (which would be nice in thought) you will have a bunch of smart people who are blown up by another country who spent their money on military.

 

[slick]

I never said it would be wist to put all our money (that we don't have by the way) into education. I am not a protester either. I am from a military family so I believe war is sometimes needed. My problem is that Bush throws our military power around like it is nothing. So we take Iraq. Now what N.Korea? Then what? This war or any war cost a lot of money. We all seem to forget that we as tax payers pay for this war. I don't really know what to think about going to war. All I know is we should have taken care of this last time we were there. We didn't and now we have to go again. Same thing will happen with Bin Laden.

 

[leigh]

My brother (the historian) once made the argument to me that the Roman Empire began to fall when it ceased to be operating on moral grounds and began colonizing for the sake of colonizing. His point was that we (the US) needed to ensure that we always acted out of a sense of duty to the world rather than appearing colonial. I think, for the sheer sake of consistency, we owe it to the globe to care about justice in Afghanistan, Iraq, as well as North Korea. Clearly all three require different approaches however. And honestly, the fact that traditionally anti-semetic countries are unwilling to support US or UN action in Iraq should come as no surprise, and bare no weight on our president's decisions. Just my 2c. Again, thanks to all of you who have and do serve our country. -leigh

 

[mikegronholz]

Slick - you are almost contradicting yourself !!! We should have taken care of what last time we were there ?!?!?!?! Huh ? We were there to LIBERATE KUWAIT !!!!!!! We were not there to overthrow anyone !!! Look throughout the past ....... go on ..... now, name 1 person, the US president ever said "go get him" to the military about that didn't end up dead. Name one ........... and if you say Bin Laden I will smack you. Time is the remedy for all. It will happen, don't worry.

 

[slick]

We should have killed hussain. Thats what we should have done.
posted by mikegronholz
Time is the remedy for all. It will happen, don't worry.
If this is true why is Bush in such a hurry? huh?
So you think Bin Laden is dead? Your a fool. He is still alive and kicking. Go ahead and smack me if you feel the need it won't solve anything. Lets keep it peacefull. No need to throw around threats you can't follow through on.