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kingsmith

kingsmith

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194919
No offense taken....I would just like to see more of an indepth statement from you in this debate other than one liners meant to incite/irritate.

Here its not my words but it represents the philisophical approach to the exsistance of god I have followed for years
The Christian God is defined as a personal being who knows everything. According to Christians, personal beings have free will.
In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.
A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

[hr]
Some people deny that humans have free will; but all Christians claim that God himself, "in three persons," is a free personal agent, so the argument holds.
Others will object that God, being all-powerful, can change his mind. But if he does, then he did not know the future in the first place. If he truly knows the future, then the future is fixed and not even God can change it. If he changes his mind anyway, then his knowledge was limited. You can't have it both ways: no being can be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.
A more subtle objection is that God "knows" what he is going to do because he always acts in accordance with his nature, which does not diminish his free agency. God might claim, for example, that he will not tell a lie tomorrow--because he always tells the truth. God could choose outside of his nature, but he never does.
But what does "nature of God" mean? To have a nature is to have limits. The "nature" that restricts humans is our physical environment and our genetics; but the "nature" of a supernatural being must be something else. It is inappropriate to say that the "nature" of a being without limits bears the same relationship to the topic of free will that human nature does.
Free will requires having more than one option, a desire to choose, freedom to choose (lack of obstacles), power to accomplish the choice (strength and aptitude), and the potential to avoid the option. "Strength and aptitude" puts a limit on what any person is "free" to do. No human has the free will to run a one-minute mile, without mechanical aid. We are free to try, but we will fail. All of our choices, and our desires as well, are limited by our nature; yet we can still claim free will (those of us who do) because we don't know our future choices.
If God always acts in accordance with his nature (whatever that means), then he still must have more than one viable option that does not contradict his nature if he is to claim free will. Otherwise, he is a slave to his nature, like a robot, and not a free personal agent.
What would the word "option" mean to a being who created all options?
Some say that "free will" with God does not mean what it means with humans. But how are we to understand this? What conditions of free will would a Christian scrap in order to craft a "free agency" for God? Multiple options? Desire? Freedom? Power? Potential to avoid?
Perhaps desire could be jettisoned. Desire implies a lack, and a perfect being should lack nothing. But it would be a very strange "person" with no needs or desires. Desire is what prompts a choice in the first place. It also contributes to assessing whether the decision was reasonable. Without desire, choices are willy-nilly, and not true decisions at all. Besides, the biblical god expressed many desires.
No objection saves the Christian God: he does not exist. Perhaps a more modest deity can be imagined: one that is not both personal and all-knowing, both all-knowing and all-powerful, both perfect and free. But until a god is defined coherently, and then proven to exist with evidence and sound reasoning, it is sensible not to think that such a being exists.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/3194920
I wont try to agrue logically against something like faith thats not a fair fight
The only thing I am debating is the existance of god. I am not arguing against science. I am not supporting religion as well....Take the "fairytales" out "created" by man....and what in science shows you the possibility of a GOD can not be....
 
kingsmith

kingsmith

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194919
Laughing at someone's "weakness" is no different than viewing them as stupid or weak...
.
And just in my continued defense who did I call weak yes I inserted a laugh but that is because I find the idea to be funny, don't put words especially insults in my mouth
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/3194928
And just in my continued defense who did I call weak yes I inserted a laugh but that is because I find the idea to be funny, don't but words especially insults in my mouth
Why is the idea funny?
 
kingsmith

kingsmith

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194927
The only thing I am debating is the existance of god. I am not arguing against science. I am not supporting religion as well....Take the "fairytales" out "created" by man....and what in science shows you the possibility of a GOD can not be....
See above though its more logical thought than exact science
 
reef_dart21

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194916
Again you are looking at through the interpretation of another person. I see nothing in the bible that states they were created out of nowhere....poof.....It just states GOD created them...does state how. Is it not possible they were created through an evolutionary process.....
If you look at the "7 days of creation" that in itself is an evolutionary process....told before the thought of evolution every was thought of or discussed.
If evolution was a 7 day affair we would evolve each week but too bad only POPULATIONS evolve NOT INDIVIDUALS through time.
 
reef_dart21

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194922
Then why would we "evolve" further than "them"? If you actually believe you are no better, then stop using the toilet, wshing your hands and showering, and so forth....
We arnt "better" than other organisms. We may be able to perform sophisticated actions but that does not make us superior.
Plants, in my opinion, are the msot succesful organism on earth we cant live without them, they were here longer then us and they can live without us.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/3194930
See above though its more logical thought than exact science

That posts describes and argues against god as religions perceive god...As I stated, take religion out of it and leave just a god...call it by any name you want...higher power...mother nature or what not, but what in science disproves the existance of a higher power?
 
kingsmith

kingsmith

Member
A team of researchers say they have found a burial shroud from the time of Jesus in a tomb in Jerusalem.
The team of researchers from Hebrew University including reserchers from Canada, say the shroud is significantly different than the Turin Shroud.
Some people belive the Turin Shroud was used to burry Jesus, while others are convinced it is a fake.
The tomb belongs to a section of a cemetery called the “field of blood,” the supposed site where one of the 12 apostles, Judas Iscariot, hanged himself.
The researchers said the shroud was used to wrap the body of a man, who they think was a Jewish high priest or a member of the noble class.
“In all of the approximately 1,000 tombs from the first century A.D. which have been excavated around Jerusalem, not one fragment of a shroud had been found” until now, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson, who excavated the site for the Israel Antiquities Authority.
“Based on the assumption that this is representative of a typical burial shroud widely used at the time of Jesus, the researchers conclude that the Turin Shroud did not originate from Jesus-era Jerusalem,” the university said.
The discovery of leprosy was found in DNA samples taken from the skeletal remains and is the earliest proven case of the disease, according to Hebrew University professor Mark Spigelman.
It is likely the shrouded man died from tuberculosis, Spigelman said, and its presence in other remains found at the site suggest “the significant impact social diseases such as tuberculosis had on society from the low socioeconomic groups up to the more affluent families, such as Tomb the Shroud in first-century Jerusalem.”
The researchers also said there’s a chance the man in the tomb had a connection to the story of Jesus, reports the Montreal Gazette.
The man’s body is described as being located next to the tomb of Annas, a high priest who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas — another priest said to have betrayed Jesus to the Romans.
“It is thus thought that this shrouded man was either a priest or a member of the aristocracy,” the researchers stated.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194922
Then why would we "evolve" further than "them"? If you actually believe you are no better, then stop using the toilet, wshing your hands and showering, and so forth....
That's a large assumption

Though if we did all 'evolve' from that single cell that god put, how do we know "we're what god wants?" I think it's safe to assume we all think we're the 'best' but how in gods eyes? For all we know, god could be looking for something specific, plants or things that only live underwater.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3194931
If evolution was a 7 day affair we would evolve each week but too bad only POPULATIONS evolve NOT INDIVIDUALS through time.
To fully understand what you are arguing against you should read up on it first. The vary same book also states a day in the life of god can be as a 1000 years to man....meaning a day in the life of god is timeless....basically saying it isn't 7 man days but seven godly days...which could have spanned over the course of millions of years....again, this was written before the evolutionary theory was thought of or discussed. The bible itself sup[ports the evolutionary theory.
Now if a book can support evolution before evolution was thopught up by man...what does this tell you?
 
reef_dart21

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194936
That posts describes and argues against god as religions perceive god...As I stated, take religion out of it and leave just a god...call it by any name you want...higher power...mother nature or what not, but what in science disproves the existance of a higher power?
Nothing at all
That is why creationism is still a theory (to the scientific community)
However their is no evidence to support this theory but evolution does.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/3194937
A team of researchers say they have found a burial shroud from the time of Jesus in a tomb in Jerusalem.
The team of researchers from Hebrew University including reserchers from Canada, say the shroud is significantly different than the Turin Shroud.
Some people belive the Turin Shroud was used to burry Jesus, while others are convinced it is a fake.
The tomb belongs to a section of a cemetery called the “field of blood,” the supposed site where one of the 12 apostles, Judas Iscariot, hanged himself.
The researchers said the shroud was used to wrap the body of a man, who they think was a Jewish high priest or a member of the noble class.
“In all of the approximately 1,000 tombs from the first century A.D. which have been excavated around Jerusalem, not one fragment of a shroud had been found” until now, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson, who excavated the site for the Israel Antiquities Authority.
“Based on the assumption that this is representative of a typical burial shroud widely used at the time of Jesus, the researchers conclude that the Turin Shroud did not originate from Jesus-era Jerusalem,” the university said.
The discovery of leprosy was found in DNA samples taken from the skeletal remains and is the earliest proven case of the disease, according to Hebrew University professor Mark Spigelman.
It is likely the shrouded man died from tuberculosis, Spigelman said, and its presence in other remains found at the site suggest “the significant impact social diseases such as tuberculosis had on society from the low socioeconomic groups up to the more affluent families, such as Tomb the Shroud in first-century Jerusalem.”
The researchers also said there’s a chance the man in the tomb had a connection to the story of Jesus, reports the Montreal Gazette.
The man’s body is described as being located next to the tomb of Annas, a high priest who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas — another priest said to have betrayed Jesus to the Romans.
“It is thus thought that this shrouded man was either a priest or a member of the aristocracy,” the researchers stated.
Again, this argues against religion...not the idea of a GOD.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3194941
Nothing at all
That is why creationism is still a theory (to the scientific community)
However their is no evidence to support this theory but evolution does.

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194940
To fully understand what you are arguing against you should read up on it first. The vary same book also states a day in the life of god can be as a 1000 years to man....meaning a day in the life of god is timeless....basically saying it isn't 7 man days but seven godly days...which could have spanned over the course of millions of years....again, this was written before the evolutionary theory was thought of or discussed. The bible itself sup[ports the evolutionary theory.
Now if a book can support evolution before evolution was thopught up by man...what does this tell you?
.
 
reef_dart21

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194940
To fully understand what you are arguing against you should read up on it first. The vary same book also states a day in the life of god can be as a 1000 years to man....meaning a day in the life of god is timeless....basically saying it isn't 7 man days but seven godly days...which could have spanned over the course of millions of years....again, this was written before the evolutionary theory was thought of or discussed. The bible itself sup[ports the evolutionary theory.
Now if a book can support evolution before evolution was thopught up by man...what does this tell you?
How can a godly day be 1000 human days but 7 godly days equal to millions of year?
Also eovlution has evidence the world is over BILLIONS of years old not millions
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/3194945
Again see above agruements for why God's own existance is in conflict with its self
That again is how GOD is described by religion....Just a GOD...no religion...what in science states there can not be a GOD...come on, I know you can say it. I can disprove science and religion all day...but disprove GOD...not GOD according to a religion, but the existance of a GOD.
 
kingsmith

kingsmith

Member
To further clarify I can sort of agree with Darths approach I am not oppesed to the idea of a supreme being however to try and attempt to understand and put into human terms something that is beyond our comprehension is flawed to say the least. This is what religion does so if Science vs God agruement is not about religion it should not even be discussed
 
reef_dart21

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3194940
To fully understand what you are arguing against you should read up on it first. The vary same book also states a day in the life of god can be as a 1000 years to man....meaning a day in the life of god is timeless....basically saying it isn't 7 man days but seven godly days...which could have spanned over the course of millions of years....again, this was written before the evolutionary theory was thought of or discussed. The bible itself sup[ports the evolutionary theory.
Now if a book can support evolution before evolution was thopught up by man...what does this tell you?
The bible is just a book written by a person. How does it prove or disprove anything? Like i said once before find me evidence such as noahs ark, then i might start doubting evolution. Like i also said before nostradomus made succesful predicitons (about 10 succesful out of 1000 predictions) but not through the power of god, he used astrology. Should i start worshipping the stars just because he made a few lucky guesses that lacked any detail.
 
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